Is the Mass Biblical?

[Luke1_48]

porthos11:

We are never worthy by ourselves. If you know anything abou the Mass you’ll see that we make the words of the Centurion our own: “Lord I am not worthy to receive you.”

But we go on to say…

“but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.”

So how do we receive Jesus worthily in the Eucharist? By remaining in his grace (that is, his healing of our souls through justification) and not falling into grave sin, otherwise we fall into the trap St. Paul warned us about: we eat and drink our own condemnation.

Well said!

 

[mercygate]

Luke1:48:

YAQUBOS, my bro, the mass is the western name for the divine liturgy. The liturgy is two parts, the first part is the liturgy of the word, the second is the liturgy of the Eucharist. The Eucharist itself is not the mass.

Luke – don’t forget, the word “Mass” is a nickname. It comes from the dismissal, which sends believers out into the world to “love and serve the Lord,” as we say nowadays. In Latin it was, “Ite, missa est.” The word “Mass” is just our English nickname, taken from “missa.”

YAQUBOS can read more about this awkward Latin phrase (which is, apparently, one of the oldest grammatical constructions extant in the Mass) at the following link (but it is probably more than you need or want to know): newadvent.org/cathen/08253a.htm

Earlier posts have referred YAQUBOS to Scott Hahn’s, The Lamb’s Supper, which explores the depth of Scripture as the formative structure of the liturgy of the Mass. I would advise him read it to get a clearer understanding of the Catholic view from a former Evangelical, sola Scriptura/sola fide Protestant. Hahn understands where YAQUBOS is coming from (as do I).

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

mercygate:

We are made worthy through Baptism.

So the pagan is not worthy to come to the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

mercygate:

Earlier you posit:
Two questions here, YAQUBOS:

1. I do not understand either the grammar or the intent of your sentence, which I have put in bold type; can you clarify it please?
2. Somehow, I don’t understand why the idea that the Eucharist mystically participates in the once-for-all Sacrifice of Christ in any contradicts John 6:53 – or for that matter, relates to John 6:53 in any way. Maybe you can connect the dots for me?

You quoted me saying:
“When we talk about the Eucharist, we are still talking about the passages of Hebrews, because, according to human philosophies, the Eucharist is the SAME Sacrifice as that of the Cross. **Don’t we have to understand according to which biblical clear principle the Eucharist is the SAME Sacrifice??? ** Can’t we mention the fact that this philosophy is contradicting the clear message of our Lord in John 6:53?”

1. The Scripture says that we must be worthy before eating the bread and drinking the cup. The Scripture says that we can’t have Life without eating the flesh of the Lord and drinking His blood.
   How can you say that it is the SAME Sacrifice, in the light of this.
2. Isn’t eating the bread THE SAME THING as eating the flesh of the Lord. Well, John 6:53 is talking about that, just like 1 Corinthians 11:27-28.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Luke1:48:

YAQUBOS, my bro, the mass is the western name for the divine liturgy. The liturgy is two parts, the first part is the liturgy of the word, the second is the liturgy of the Eucharist. The Eucharist itself is not the mass.

Just to remember what this thread is about, let’s quote the first post:

TylerWS:

Hebrews 9:25-10:18 and specifically Hebrews 9:24-26

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
These verses seem to contradict the Catholic Church’s teaching concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass. Could someone please explain these verses and how the Catholic Church can keep its doctrine concerning the Eucharist in light of them?

I hope you were answering this all this time…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

So the pagan is not worthy to come to the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

You quoted me saying:
“When we talk about the Eucharist, we are still talking about the passages of Hebrews, because, according to human philosophies, the Eucharist is the SAME Sacrifice as that of the Cross. **Don’t we have to understand according to which biblical clear principle the Eucharist is the SAME Sacrifice??? ** Can’t we mention the fact that this philosophy is contradicting the clear message of our Lord in John 6:53?”

1. The Scripture says that we must be worthy before eating the bread and drinking the cup. The Scripture says that we can’t have Life without eating the flesh of the Lord and drinking His blood.
   How can you say that it is the SAME Sacrifice, in the light of this.
2. Isn’t eating the bread THE SAME THING as eating the flesh of the Lord. Well, John 6:53 is talking about that, just like 1 Corinthians 11:27-28.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Ah, now we’re a little clearer.

You’re talking of Communion, since you’re so focused on the “eating” part. Communion is not the Sacrifice itself, but it is our participation in it.

The Sacrifice is made present at the Consecration, which is the defining point of the Mass.

Now I don’t understand premise #1. What does eating and drinking worthily the Body and Blood of Christ have to do with the Sacrifice and how does it contradict the doctrine of the Mass as that Sacrifice? Those verses deal more directly with the Real Presence.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Luke1:48:

My bro, you don’t understand our teachings. The Eucharist is not necessary to be saved, it helps us though. A baptized person could never recieve the Eucharist once and still be saved, but it is not recommended.

So the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not necessary for Salvation?

Is the Eucharist THE SAME Sacrifice of the Cross?

Is the Eucharist a Sacrifice?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

porthos11:

So how do we receive Jesus worthily in the Eucharist? By remaining in his grace (that is, his healing of our souls through justification)

How do we receive this Grace? By the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[mercygate]

YAQUBOS:

So the pagan is not worthy to come to the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

Yes. You are correct – but in the sense that to participate in the Eucharistic Sacrifice – to eat the Body and Blood of Christ – we must have accepted Christ. This is not to say that the pagan is invulnerable to grace. Nor is it to say that unconverted sinners of any kind are invulnerable to grace, or that Christ did not shed his blood for all of them/us. (After all, he came to us “while we were still sinners.”) (Rom 5:6, 8, & 10) Maybe here we could use a word other than “worthy.” How about “ready?”

YAQUBOS:

1. The Scripture says that we must be worthy before eating the bread and drinking the cup. The Scripture says that we can’t have Life without eating the flesh of the Lord and drinking His blood.
   How can you say that it is the SAME Sacrifice, in the light of this.

Because Baptism and the Eucharist are two different aspects of our participation in the life of Christ. In your faith tradition, are unbaptized people admitted to the Lord’s Supper?

YAQUBOS:

1. Isn’t eating the bread THE SAME THING as eating the flesh of the Lord. Well, John 6:53 is talking about that, just like 1 Corinthians 11:27-28.

Yes.

 

[Luke1_48]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

So the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not necessary for Salvation?

Is the Eucharist THE SAME Sacrifice of the Cross?

Is the Eucharist a Sacrifice?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

The Sacrfice of the Cross opened the doors of Heaven to us, but our souls are still not open to God’s grace, baptism opens our soul to this. Bapstims could not be possible without the sacrifice of the cross. Each time a person recieves the Eucharist, it aids them from commiting mortal sins. But it is not necessary, bapstim is. If it weren’t for the sacrifice of the cross, baptism wouldn’t do anything.

 

[Luke1_48]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

How do we receive this Grace? By the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Baptism, faith, and good deeds.

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

So the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not necessary for Salvation?

FALSE

Is the Eucharist THE SAME Sacrifice of the Cross?

Yes

Is the Eucharist a Sacrifice?

Yes. Specifically, the Mass is the Sacrifice re-presented.

Now lemme guess your next question:

Is it necessary to eat the body and drink the blood of the Lord for salvation? YES, cf. John 6:53.

IS salvation possible for those who don’t believe in the Real Presence? YES, because of invincible ignorance, and the fact that God is not bound by his Sacraments.

So if it is possible for those who don’t eat the Body and drink the Blood of the Lord to be saved and the Eucharist is the Sacrifice of the Cross, is the Sacrifice of the Cross not necessary? NO, because even if they don’t receive Communion, the Sacrifice was offered ONCE FOR ALL and still becomes present. Again, Communion is not the Sacrifice itself, but our participation.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

porthos11:

Ah, now we’re a little clearer.

You’re talking of Communion, since you’re so focused on the “eating” part. Communion is not the Sacrifice itself, but it is our participation in it.

The Sacrifice is made present at the Consecration, which is the defining point of the Mass.

Now I don’t understand premise #1. What does eating and drinking worthily the Body and Blood of Christ have to do with the Sacrifice and how does it contradict the doctrine of the Mass as that Sacrifice? Those verses deal more directly with the Real Presence.

Jesus says that our participation in His flesh and blood ( eating and drinking ) is necessary to have Life.

You say the Eucharist is that flesh and blood. ( Or else, it would not be a sacrifice, and we would not have to deal with this topic )

Paul says that we must not participate in that in an unworthy manner.

Well, if the Communion is the SAME SACRIFICE that we are presenting to God, then how can we be worthy of partaking in it without partaking in it?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Luke1_48]

porthos11:

Again, Communion is not the Sacrifice itself, but our participation.

Just like how Paul said that in Baptism we participate in the death and ressurection of Jesus, I forgot which letter he said that though.

 

[mercygate]

porthos11:

Again, Communion is not the Sacrifice itself, but our participation.

“Communion” is our participation. The “Eucharistic Sacrifice” “is” the Sacrifice. Just wanted to head off a potential confusion since we sometimes use those words interchangeably, and a Protestant might get dizzy . . .:whacky:

 

[Luke1_48]

YAQUBOS:

Well, if the Communion is the SAME SACRIFICE that we are presenting to God, then how can we be worthy of partaking in it without partaking in it?

If someone we’re to commit a mortal sin they would not be worthy to partake of it, Judas was not worthy.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

mercygate:

Because Baptism and the Eucharist are two different aspects of our participation in the life of Christ

Conclusion: the Baptism is the SAME SACRIFICE as that of the Cross, just like Eucharist.

Right?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Well, if the Communion is the SAME SACRIFICE that we are presenting to God, then how can we be worthy of partaking in it without partaking in it?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

I repeat, Communion is NOT the Sacrifice of the Cross, the Mass is.

As the guys said, we become worthy by Baptism, for by Baptism, we become a new creation, having been baptized into his death and resurrection. It is our first participation in the mystery of the Cross, and the first infusion of grace which comes from the Cross. But is is not the Sacrifice

Communion is our participation (koinonia) in the Body and Blood of Christ. But it is not the Sacrifice.

The Mass at Consecration is when we observe the memorial (anamnesis) of Calvary, and is threfore the Sacrifice made present. Communion is when we actually commune with the flesh and blood of the Lord.

Don’t confuse the teachings of the Real Presence with the Sacrifice of the Mass. These are two different teachings, although closely related.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

YAQUBOS:

How do we receive this Grace? By the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ?

Luke1:48:

Baptism, faith, and good deeds.

Conclusion: Baptism + Faith + Good deeds = THE ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE OF JESUS CHRIST.

Right?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Conclusion: Baptism + Faith + Good deeds = THE ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE OF JESUS CHRIST.

Right?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Wrong. Baptism+Faith+Good deeds = JUSTIFICATION
How? By Grace.
Why? Because of the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of the Cross.

But it is NOT the Sacrifice.

 

[mercygate]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Jesus says that our participation in His flesh and blood ( eating and drinking ) is necessary to have Life.

You say the Eucharist is that flesh and blood. ( Or else, it would not be a sacrifice, and we would not have to deal with this topic )

Paul says that we must not participate in that in an unworthy manner.

Well, if the Communion is the SAME SACRIFICE that we are presenting to God, then how can we be worthy of partaking in it without partaking in it?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

A ha! I’m starting to understand the question! Actually, I think YOU are starting to understand the question yourself!

Let me venture a response (others, please tweak me if I mislead): Baptism and Eucharist both bring us into the death and Resurrection of Christ. Baptism (once only) frees us from Original Sin and makes us initially “worthy.” The Eucharist is the perpetual participation in the Mystery of the Cross and Resurrection, according to Jesus’ command to eat his Flesh and drink his Blood. “Anamnesis.” Baptism is the gate; Eucharist is the Kingdom.