Is the Mass Biblical?

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
Luke1:48:

If someone we’re to commit a mortal sin they would not be worthy to partake of it, Judas was not worthy.

Conclusion: If someone commits a mortal sin, he cannot be worthy to partake of the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ…

He can go and find another way to be saved…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Adam_S]

Did you need to write all this to say that there is no answer to the question: how can we be worthy before eating the bread and drinking the cup?

I didnt write all that to answer your question, i wrote that to point out that your question HAS ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED 100 TIMES ALREADY!!! The thing is, you arent listening, and then you are implying since people arent answering your question (which they are) then you are right and Catholics are wrong. But wait it gets better…

I am saying all that to those who don’t believe the Bible is the Word of God. Is there anyone here who doesn’t believe the Bible is the Word of God?

If there is anyone like that, then let him/her try to understand what I am doing here, in the light of what Jesus did with the Pharisees…

I doubt there are any Catholics here who do not belive the Bible is the Word of God, and you are clearly just shifting your argument again, as you keep getting pinned down, so you shift slightly. As for your thing of comparing your little fight on the forum to what our Saviour did - I suggest you think about what you have said, and then try and bring some humility in your life before posting again, because the arrogance of what you have said in what i have quoted is absolutely shocking.

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Conclusion: If someone commits a mortal sin, he cannot be worthy to partake of the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ…

He can go and find another way to be saved…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

You’re enjoying this aren’t you?

Again, you are confusing the terms. Partake [eat] means COMMUNION, and COMMUNION is NOT the re-presentation of the Sacrifice. Consecration is.

So yes, if one commits mortal sin he cannot PARTAKE (koinonia) the body and blood of the Lord. But he can still witness the memorial (anamnesis) of the Sacrifice at Consecration; in fact, he is still bound to every Sunday. But he is barred from partaking (Communion).

So how does he get back to partaking? Through Reconciliation (Confession), which Jesus instituted the night of Easter. And where does Reconciliation get its efficacy? From the Sacrifice of the Cross. So in Confession we again participate in grace, which always comes from the Cross. But it is NOT the Sacrifice.

 

[mercygate]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Conclusion: If someone commits a mortal sin, he cannot be worthy to partake of the ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice of Jesus Christ…

He can go and find another way to be saved…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Right. Go down to the corner and find another Messiah. (Actually, people try to do that every day, don’t they? )

OR, participate in what our Orthodox brethren call “the Mystery of the Second Baptism”: Sacramental Confession, which Our Resurrected Lord provided via this God-breathed commission to his disciples in John 20:22-23. We do not come forward to receive our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament if we are aware of grave sin on our conscience.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

porthos11:

I repeat, Communion is NOT the Sacrifice of the Cross, the Mass is.

If the Mass is the Sacrifice of the Cross, then participating in it ( Communion ) must be the sole way for a pagan to have LIFE.

porthos11:

As the guys said, we become worthy by Baptism, for by Baptism, we become a new creation, having been baptized into his death and resurrection. It is our first participation in the mystery of the Cross, and the first infusion of grace which comes from the Cross. But is is not the Sacrifice

Baptism is not the Sacrifice of the Cross, and yet it gives us the Life that ONLY that Sacrifice can give even BEFORE coming to that Sacrifice…

porthos11:

Communion is our participation (koinonia) in the Body and Blood of Christ. But it is not the Sacrifice.

Conclusion: Communion is the participation in the ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE. If we don’t participate in that ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice, we cannot participate in the Eucharist…

porthos11:

The Mass at Consecration is when we observe the memorial (anamnesis) of Calvary, and is threfore the Sacrifice made present. Communion is when we actually commune with the flesh and blood of the Lord.

And yet, we can’t commune with the flesh and blood of the Lord in the Eucharist unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

mercygate:

A ha! I’m starting to understand the question! Actually, I think YOU are starting to understand the question yourself!

Let me venture a response (others, please tweak me if I mislead): Baptism and Eucharist both bring us into the death and Resurrection of Christ. Baptism (once only) frees us from Original Sin and makes us initially “worthy.” The Eucharist is the perpetual participation in the Mystery of the Cross and Resurrection, according to Jesus’ command to eat his Flesh and drink his Blood. “Anamnesis.” Baptism is the gate; Eucharist is the Kingdom.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[mercygate]

Yaqubos, are you in a faith tradition that baptizes people? And if so, is baptism merely an “ordinance” or act of obedience, or does it confer grace, in your view?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

porthos11:

You’re enjoying this aren’t you?

Again, you are confusing the terms. Partake [eat] means COMMUNION, and COMMUNION is NOT the re-presentation of the Sacrifice. Consecration is.

So yes, if one commits mortal sin he cannot PARTAKE (koinonia) the body and blood of the Lord. But he can still witness the memorial (anamnesis) of the Sacrifice at Consecration; in fact, he is still bound to every Sunday. But he is barred from partaking (Communion).

So how does he get back to partaking? Through Reconciliation (Confession), which Jesus instituted the night of Easter. And where does Reconciliation get its efficacy? From the Sacrifice of the Cross. So in Confession we again participate in grace, which always comes from the Cross. But it is NOT the Sacrifice.

So if someone eats the flesh and drinks the blood of the Lord CAN hunger and thirst AGAIN. Right?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

If the Mass is the Sacrifice of the Cross, then participating in it ( Communion ) must be the sole way for a pagan to have LIFE.

No. Because Communion is NOT the Sacrifice.

Baptism is not the Sacrifice of the Cross, and yet it gives us the Life that ONLY that Sacrifice can give even BEFORE coming to that Sacrifice…

True the Sacrifice of the Cross is the fountain of grace. And yes Baptism is joining Christ in his death and his Resurrection. It is a channel of grace. But is is NOT the Sacrifice.

Conclusion: Communion is the participation in the ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE. If we don’t participate in that ONCE FOR ALL Sacrifice, we cannot participate in the Eucharist…

And yet, we can’t commune with the flesh and blood of the Lord in the Eucharist unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Wrong. Because Communion is not how we become children of God, Baptism is. It is impossible to worthily partake of Communion when not a Christian because we do not share in God’s nature, much like a man cannot marry a dog.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

mercygate:

We do not come forward to receive our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament if we are aware of grave sin on our conscience.

So you don’t come to the ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE if you have a grave sin. That Sacrifice cannot purify you from that… RIGHT?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

So if someone eats the flesh and drink the blood of the Lord CAN hunger and thirst AGAIN. Right?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Nope. Jesus words are true, he who eats his body and drinks his blood will never hunger and thirst.

But one who falls into mortal sin does not hunger and thirst. He DIES. To hunger and thirst are aspects of a LIVE person, not a dead one.

Reconciliation of one in mortal sin is therefore not merely healing. It is a resurrection.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

mercygate:

Yaqubos, are you in a faith tradition that baptizes people? And if so, is baptism merely an “ordinance” or act of obedience, or does it confer grace, in your view?

I belong to the Church of Christ that baptizes people.

Baptism is another topic. It’s better to talk about it in another thread.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

So you don’t come to the ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE if you have a grave sin. That Sacrifice cannot purify you from that… RIGHT?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Again, you MUST go to the Sacrifice. In fact we are bound to attend the Sacrifice every Sunday even in a state of mortal sin. We must not partake though of Communion.

And the Sacrifice does purify you. Through Reconciliation. But it is not the Sacrifice but the application of its grace.

 

[mercygate]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

So if someone eats the flesh and drink the blood of the Lord CAN hunger and thirst AGAIN. Right?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

This is a GREAT question! Because it looks like our “hunger and thirst” contradict our Lord’s promise that we will not hunger and thirst.

But the Gospels are full of paradoxes. I think our problem with this one lies in the fact that “in the flesh” (*our *flesh, “which is iof no avail”), we will “hunger and thirst” all of our earthly lives. Jesus even gives us a Beatitude about that: “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.”

But in *his *Spirit, in his Resurrection, we are satisfied by the Bread of Christ’s Body in the Eucharist. We participate in that promise of no more hunger and thirst.

This side of Heaven, there will always be this tension between flesh and spirit.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

YAQUBOS:

If the Mass is the Sacrifice of the Cross, then participating in it ( Communion ) must be the sole way for a pagan to have LIFE.

porthos11:

No. Because Communion is NOT the Sacrifice.

But you say that Communion is the eating and drinking of Jesus Christ. And the Lord says:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.” ( John 6:53 )

So without this Communion, a pagan cannot have LIFE.

porthos11:

Wrong. Because Communion is not how we become children of God, Baptism is. It is impossible to worthily partake of Communion when not a Christian because we do not share in God’s nature, much like a man cannot marry a dog.

Well, Jesus says that we can’t have the Life of God in us without partaking of that ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[mercygate]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

I belong to the Church of Christ that baptizes people.

Baptism is another topic. It’s better to talk about it in another thread.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

I agree that it is a different topic, but it relates to how the graces of Baptism and Eucharist are similar and different. I understand the Church of Christ believes that Baptism acutally confers grace – that it is not merely a sign of obedience (correct me if I am mistaken). If that is true, then you’re already on the way to understanding how the Catholic view of how the Eucharist relates to Baptism.

 

[porthos11]

mercygate:

This is a GREAT question! Because it looks like our “hunger and thirst” contradict our Lord’s promise that we will not hunger and thirst.

But the Gospels are full of paradoxes. I think our problem with this one lies in the fact that “in the flesh” (*our *flesh, “which is iof no avail”), we will “hunger and thirst” all of our earthly lives. Jesus even gives us a Beatitude about that: “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.”

But in *his *Spirit, in his Resurrection, we are satisfied by the Bread of Christ’s Body in the Eucharist. We participate in that promise of no more hunger and thirst.

This side of Heaven, there will always be this tension between flesh and spirit.

Mercygate, lemme take where you left off. That’s a great insight. The Holy Father has mentioned that those who partake of the Eucharist do not have to wait till the hereafter to obtain eternal life, they already possess it here on earth.

In that sense, never hungering and never thirsting is true even here on earth.

Great point.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

porthos11:

Nope. Jesus words are true, he who eats his body and drinks his blood will never hunger and thirst.

But one who falls into mortal sin does not hunger and thirst. He DIES. To hunger and thirst are aspects of a LIVE person, not a dead one.

Reconciliation of one in mortal sin is therefore not merely healing. It is a resurrection.

What’s the meaning of being hungry and thirsty?

Can a dead person eat and drink JESUS CHRIST?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

porthos11:

Again, you MUST go to the Sacrifice. In fact we are bound to attend the Sacrifice every Sunday even in a state of mortal sin. We must not partake though of Communion.

And the Sacrifice does purify you. Through Reconciliation. But it is not the Sacrifice but the application of its grace.

You mean we can have LIFE without eating the flesh of the Lord and drinking His blood?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[porthos11]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

But you say that Communion is the eating and drinking of Jesus Christ. And the Lord says:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.” ( John 6:53 )

So without this Communion, a pagan cannot have LIFE.

Well, Jesus says that we can’t have the Life of God in us without partaking of that ONCE FOR ALL SACRIFICE.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Correct on both points. Not just without communion, but without baptism as well.

So the solution? Get baptized, and partake of the Eucharist. Baptism is how one gets justified, there is no other way; the Bible says so. Communion is the participation in the body and blood of Christ, through which we sustain eternal life.