Is the patriarchy a good thing?

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Sarcelle said:
How come nuns are called Sister instead of mother?

What does spiritual motherhood look like?

Speaking as someone with autism and marginal social skills I struggle with this. I don’t think I can do this spiritual motherhood thing.

Does Pope Francis have a low view of spinsters? Technically, I am one. I practice chastity but it probably is a infertile chastity.
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Some sisters are called mothers, such as Mother Angelica or Mother Teresa. A sister, who is a mother, in a convent is just one who is in authority over the other sisters.

IMHO spiritual motherhood is just loving others and the people in our lives toward Christ and the Church.
 
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Lea101 said:
Ultimately we can have a set of standards individuals can hold themselves to. E.g. To help the poor. In this case it would be for men to lead effectively in their families, communities.

But once you start to enforce it as a system (e.g. Only allowing men to hold office), it becomes corrupt and there’s no point in being shocked about it.
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Agreed. The leading role of men is supposed to come naturally and not to be enforced by law. And it works, because we see many leading roles that women are not prohibited to take (for example in politics), but where there is nonetheless a majority of men. In the same way that there is a majority of women in jobs like nursing. This is because each gender naturally tends to do what it’s generally called for, without a need to enforce it. And one of the problems with feminism today is that it wants to enforce an artificial equality everywhere. It is never good to enforce such things whether it is equality or inequality. Nature knows best.
 
edwest211 said:
You don’t know history, do you? I was there when radical feminists called men male chauvenist pigs. Do you get that that? Go to the website for the National Organization for Women right now and see what they support. Among other things, the deaths of millions since 1973. Is that progress? Or what about ‘women’s studies’ courses introduced in colleges in the 1980s? Yes, women did not need Marxist/Communist reeducation camps. And radical feminism followed the classic Marxist pattern.

Women were the eternal victims class.
Men, the eternal enemies class.
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You may or may not have been the only one there. That type of statement is subjective. it in no way validates the premise you put forward that

‘feminist radicals (a term yet to be defined) reprogrammed ( again quite an interesting choice of words) men AND women’

the terminology you are using does not suggest a grounding for valid discourse
 
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Sarcelle said:
She was frustrated with me because I was a challenge to raise being autistic and all.

I don’t hold it against her.
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I’m sure it was challenging for her but I know that God helped her and perhaps she said it in a moment of frustration, as all parents say things they don’t really mean and later regret.

There are many ways parenting can be a challenge. I gave my father a very rough time during my later teen years.
 
MagdalenaRita said:
Well I guess my first response is who says it’s not?
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Good 'ol fashion burden of proof rules dictate that the positive claim needs proven - namely, your claim that patriarchy is of the Kingdom of God.

What in Church teaching backs this claim that God’s kingdom is patriarchal?
MagdalenaRita said:
I agree we no longer follow Jewish laws, we follow Christ’s new commandment to love one another and Scripture and Tradition show us how we are to do that.
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If they were Eternal Truths, we would still be following them.
johnz123 said:
I wouldn’t say they are “not as good”. I would say they are less satisfied. I mean just interview any woman who chose career over family
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Have you had much contact with women of Holy Orders?

The Church recognizes all callings as valid. Single and childless people are not second-class citizens.
Sarcelle said:
My mother was also a homemaker and she told me if she would do it over she will not choose marriage and motherhood.
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I’ve chosen marriage and motherhood. The stay-at-home motherhood thing wasn’t entirely a free choice. A lack of paid maternity leave and affordable childcare largely contributed to that decision.

It’s not an easy choice. In fact, it’s one of the most looked-down-upon lots in society.
Our highest claim to fame is spit up on our shirts, not sexy LinkdIn profiles.

So you can imagine how condescending it sounds when people pat me on the head and tell me I have “the highest vocation.” I don’t need to hear that patronizing gobblety-goop. What I need is for someone to watch the kids while I go to Adoration. Or drive my son to karate lessons so I can finally put away the folded laundry. Or put the little darlings to bed and keep an eye on them while I go out to dinner with my husband.

But moms in our culture don’t get support. Just lip service. And judgment. Lots and lots of judgment.
 
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Is it “naturally” or just simply what society has so long dictated? This is the crux of the matter. I think women should seek whatever role in whatever capacity they so choose, and shouldn’t be bound by notions of “natural”. If a woman wants to be engineer, she should have the same right to pursue the goal of any man, and if she achieves it, then she should be paid the same salary as any man. Further, she shouldn’t have to answer to people who think her natural vocation was being a nurse, nun or mother.
 
“Denying their own female bodies…”

So if my daughters decides not to have children, they’re denying their bodies.

Good grief.
 
I agree with you. However even if women are allowed to become engineer (which is a good thing) there will probably always be a majority of men in this kind of profession. And this is also good, and it is simply due to the natural differences between the genders. It is not that women engineers are less talented than men engineers, and it is not that women think: “oh, nature calls me to be a mother so I will purposefully avoid becoming an engineer because of that”. It is just that the profession of engineer is generally more interesting for men than for women and so there are more men who seek to become engineers. In the same way that the profession of nursing attracts more women in general and less men are interested in it. It’s because the two genders naturally have different ways to see the world in general, which implies different tastes and interests.
 
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There’s little evidence that any particular gender has an affinity for abstract and analytical thinking. What has by and large kept women out of STEM fields has been what you describe; a majority of men. Don’t confuse convention with cognitive capacity. Women are not naturally mathematical lightweights.
 
niceatheist said:
There’s little evidence that any particular gender has an affinity for abstract and analytical thinking. What has by and large kept women out of STEM fields has been what you describe; a majority of men. Don’t confuse convention with cognitive capacity. Women are not naturally mathematical lightweights.
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I never said that women have less mathematical skills. In fact I didn’t even speak about intelligence. All I said was that those who are interested in becoming engineers are mostly men, and this is why most engineers are men. If women were generally more interested by this profession then there would be more women in this profession.
 
Which ignores the fact that for generations women were very often discouraged from even getting involved in these professions. So I ask, can you see the difference between “natural” tendencies, and social pressures?
 
The whole idea of the “patriarchy” discouraging women from getting into those professions is a myth. Lawrence Summers, former president of Harvard University said there are innate biological differences between men and women and that is why you don’t see as many women in stem majors. All of the major discoveries in science have mostly been made by men. Does this mean women are less smart? No, i just means they have other talents.
 
blackforest said:
What in Church teaching backs this claim that God’s kingdom is patriarchal?
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Well for one thing, priests are called fathers, the word pope means papa. The word patriarch refers to a society or organization or culture governed by fathers.

“Christianity is intrinsically patriarchal, but the patriarch is to be a papa… the Catholic priest/bishop is to be the “servant of the servants of God” — a father who loves his children like the father of the Prodigal Son.” Father Longenecker
blackforest said:
The Church recognizes all callings as valid. Single and childless people are not second-class citizens
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I don’t think anyone is saying that single or women without children are second class citizens but that every woman is called to be mothering, whether it is spiritual motherhood or biological motherhood. We were given a biology and a sense of mothering by God. There are very many women who put off biological motherhood until it was too late and rather went after a career and so feel a great loss. I can relate. I married late due to a career and didn’t get the large family I dreamed of as a young child. I have a wonderful small family, though and could care less about a career.
blackforest said:
it’s one of the most looked-down-upon lots in society.
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blackforest said:
But moms in our culture don’t get support.
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This I completely agree with. It is one of the most looked down upon jobs in our society. I struggle with people looking down upon me for my choice to be a mother and a homemaker alot and I work part time. Trust me that doesn’t change anything because I am constantly, constantly asked to the point of ad nauseam, “how much do you work these days?” “are you going to work more” or am told ,“let your family take care of themselves. They can feed themselves.” How about just saying to someone I need to go and do laundry? Well I can tell you I have been berated for that. Apparently today it is wrong to do laundry for your family. Everyone for himself if he wants clean clothes.

Yes, sadly because people look at motherhood as you describe, it is difficult to get someone to help out when you are overwhelmed or frustrated and very busy, which it sounds like you are very busy. Because people look at motherhood this way also causes women to seek out careers when they would prefer being a wife and mother.

I hope and pray you have family or friends nearby who can give you a helping hand.

God bless.
 
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And Lawrence Summer’s views were pretty much rejected.

I tell you this, I wouldn’t want a man like Summers anywhere near my daughters.

Basically the argument is “Girls are really great mothers, but are morons.” That’s the argument, and I find it evil and repugnant.
 
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