Is the silent treatment acceptable? (Womanly opinions welcome...I can't really read women's minds)

[Belgarion]

Would it be wrong if I smiled?

I just went through the punishment of rereading this whole thread. I see a kid putting forth a problem. He got about 28 very respectful attempts to be helpful before he started getting a little snippy at post 28.

While we’re looking back…

Liberanosamalo:

You’re fascinated by the whole drama and how “romantic” you look to the world.

And so I answered:

Belgarion:

don’t twist what I said.
When I said that other people thought it was romantic, that’s a fact. I didn’t say that was why I was doing it. And I certainly don’t care to appear romantic. I AM a romantic individual. But I don’t go out of my way to look romantic to other people.

That’s me reacting to a false assumption.
And if you go back and check that post, you’ll see me stating that I understand your point. etc,

Again at post 73 he started getting annoyed when people started questioning the motives of the girl and her family and whether she was all that. He accuses people who have been very patient of “not listening” when the problem is, we WERE listening. He said he wanted perspective from the other side. And 73 posts showed that many reasonable people were trying to tell him there are very few good explanations for the behavior he is encountering in that family.

First, does this sound annoyed?

Belgarion:

Don’t assume anything about me please. You are horrendously wrong. I’m not obsessed with the rescue, and I’m certainly no knight in shining armor.

Maybe. But I’m giving the truth, because of yet another false assumption. This was the post I was replying to.

kage_ar:

While knight-in-shining-armour is nice in fairy tales, it sounds as if you are obsessed with rescue.

Politeness reigns for the most part as people are trying to tell him he needs to really look at this more closely.

I’m sure it was for the most part. But the “least” part included you.

Posters ignore his sometimes disrespectful attempts at humor and him making light of what looks like a creepy situation

Disrespectful? Towards who?
Please don’t make such claims without evidence to back it up.
If I want to laugh at funny things people say, I can.
If I want to remain cheerful, I can.
If I want to SHOW that I’m cheerful, so that people don’t assume that I’m being a jerk, I can and will.

all the while as he tells us we all don’t have all the information needed in order to agree with his preconceived notions of how this will play out.

This is what I said:

Belgarion:

But you must understand that you don’t know everything about it. I can tell you every little thing, but it would take way more space than this forum would allow.

A few people suggest he quit talking to us and DO something. More pages spent discussing why he is doing precisely nothing, or can do nothing, or will do nothing until he thinks about it a little more.

Ok, and they are illegitmate reasons, why?

Finally the wheels start to come off at post 121. He snaps at Yours Truly and gets really disrespectful because I used one word: “Cartoonish.” Though he has repeatedly told us happily and proudly how abnormal she is, how not normal he is, how he doesn’t want to be normal, how outside the realm of normalness he is, or he would be the norm and all that.

Nope. This is what you said:

Well, from the point of view of adults who have dated, courted, married, married into dysfunctional families and ended up divorced, this is all very cartoonish.

This is what I said in reply to that:

Belgarion:

Wow, thanks for telling me that. Because I suppose none of the others (Who were under the same influence) were successfully married

After comparing this situation to a famous Foghorn Leghorn cartoon, I told him he seemed something out of a story… a pen and ink drawing of a guy pining for the maiden.

Nope. THIS is what you said:

Yes. Cartoonish. I can see the little pen and ink outline of you lying on your couch swooning over the fair maiden and pining.

response:

Belgarion:

Hmm…I may lie on a couch sometimes to think about it, but swooning would be a huge overstatement.

 

[Belgarion]

Snap.

Yet again…

Liberanosamalo:

C’mon. Life isn’t a movie. Go live it with people who aren’t following a medieval script.

Belgarion:

You’re not contributing to this topic.
I’m not asking for your negative comments, and I’m certainly not asking for you to paint a verbal caricature of my situation, without the benefit of extensive knowledge of the situation. If this was a clear-cut issue, I would have figured it out myself.
If you want to continue those kind of remarks, do it somewhere else.

You comment was entirelly negative and unhelpful. It was essentially a verbal caricature, and you make such a statement while ignoring much of the facts I layed out. Did I tell you to get the heck out of the thread? No. I said that if you want to continue such remarks, do it somewhere else. Or should I have added a “please”?

Out comes the anger. Other posters agree with me. Now he’s mad and argumentative and telling people he doesn’t want their advice because the picture he has painted for 121 posts has made their advice something he doesn’t want to hear anymore.

See above.

I suggest he likes the situation and doesn’t want a solution. Or he doesn’t want any posts where people have their own ideas of what to do. He can’t play it both ways. He can’t tell us in one post he can’t get close enough to the girl to give her a letter and then in another post tell us he and his mother have been invited on holiday with the family because they’re all so close. And then when we are confused, he tells us we’re not paying attention.

Nope. I said you were ignoring facts. If you were confused, you could say “Hey! I thought THIS was going on!!” But instead you were making assumptions based on points that I already disproved.

This has been 15 pages of contradictions and re-explanations that don’t quite align with the original storyline.

Says you. But then again, I suppose reality has more than one version.

And then he snaps at us as if we are feeble-minded when we lose track. With sentences like “Does your illiteracy know no bounds? Or are you just forgetting to replace “And” with “or””

Indeed. I don’t deny that I said that. You try having people COMPLETELY misread everything you say, over and over again.

And calling other poster’s readings on this “whacked out theories” and calling other people jerks.

Yep, don’t deny that either. Yet again, I can go back and find evidence to support that claim.

He can’t play victim when it comes to the tone this thread has taken. He paints a picture of a family with all sorts of siblings who he claims to be friends with and yet he can’t get one of them to put her on the phone and talk to him? The girl must be the only 20 year old in America without access to email. Is the whole family so scared of the father, even the adult children, that no one will either help him say Boo to her or be honest and tell him to go away? We suggest there is something very wrong with this whole picture and we are accused of ascribing to conspiracy theories.

First, I have made no disagreement to the fact that there his courting rules are definitely stupid. I’ve also stated that its stupid that everyone is practically afraid of him (Go ahead, take a look) But the reference to the movie “Conspiracy theory” was regarding one post…hmm…Maybe I should find it…But it was really ridiculous.

Train wreck indeed.

Perhaps, but you won’t be able to tell that yet.

All I can gather is that no one should post to Belgarion unless you want to agree with him and encourage him in his preconceived course of actions. 15 pages into this and it is clear he really did not really want advice.

Notice again how others can give advice…and I can agree or disagree without a problem.
But with you…

When he got advice he did not want to hear, he accused the posters of not listening. Or worse.

Yep. Yet again, when you ignore fact I’ve stated, and based a theory or solution on an idea that contradicts that fact…it shows that you haven’t read the post or comprehended its message.

 

[LilyM]

Bel, while some of us (myself included) did indulge in a little humorous caricature, you’ve got to admit that the way you’ve described it this situation is way over the top. When this is the case, caricature is something of a natural (though possibly not always the best) response.

And I daresay (though you’ll probably deny this) that if anyone came to you and said exactly the same things that you’ve been saying here, you’d find the whole situation at least slightly absurd. And with your sense of humour would probably indulge in a little caricature yourself.

Notice again how others can give advice…and I can agree or disagree without a problem.
But with you…

Without a problem? I wouldn’t call these comments you’ve made to me unproblematic, let alone those you’ve made to other people…

Your nonsense is VERY entertaining.

and

Well, excuse me for not caring about anything you say.

I’d hardly call that no problem. And I said as much at the time. I just understand that, like myself at your age, you don’t necessarily take kindly to people who tell you things that you don’t want to hear, even when they’re right and true.

 

[Belgarion]

6 months instead of 18 … not nearly as long, granted, but still reasonably long.

Ok, a little longer than normal. So?

OK. If he said you could come over (even thought he took it back later) then obviously he DOES function ‘like that’. The obvious explanation is that after the initial invite either she told him she didn’t want you around any more or he saw something in you that he seriously disliked.

Actually, the general concensus around here (My family and friends, I mean) is that he likely just changed his mind. But your point about her telling him that she didn’t want me around…Well, it has half merit. Its not that she doesn’t want me around, she might not have thought she was ready for that (Or yet again, was convinced she was)
Its not clear either way, but either way is kinda BS

Or maybe he found out something about her that you don’t know, something that means he won’t trust her around any guy. It’s not like anyone other than her parents would necessarily know, or that anyone would tell you, if she had a past of some kind, after all. Certainly good Victorian dads didn’t!

A past? Well…His rules would prevent that completely. So he does a good job preventing that kind of stuff, but those rules have huge drawbacks, too.
Still…He can’t trust her around a guy while at home in the living room watching a movie with the family?!? LOL

So there’s no mysterious ‘some reason’ about his behaviour, it’s perfectly understandable and explainable. You’d do the same for your daughter if either she told you she didn’t want to see some guy or you saw something about him that seriously made you think twice, or she was untrustworthy in some way.

Yeah, if any of thoe turn out to be true.
But the chance of any of those being true is reduced significantly because of the “intel” I’ve received from the family I am friends with.

He said that you couldn’t come over even with your mother?

well, I’ve gone over there with my family before. Its not that same as going over there alone JUST to spend time with them, and for her to spend some more time with me.

Saying and doing what? And during the middle of all these ‘flirtatious times’ when she was making it (fairly) clear in front of her family how she felt, you never managed to a) tell her you like her and b) ask her if she likes you? And she never managed to tell you? I’m still confused.

Well, at that point I already knew that she liked me.
The timeline is like this:
1 1/2 years after it started----I find out that she really DOES like me, 100% confirmed.The next day, I talk to her dad, he says I can come over etc—two or so weeks later, he takes it back. —I stop talking to her, because I’m extremely hurt (He said it was her decision as well as his) —For 3-4 weeks I never spoke a word to her, she was sad, I was sad, I couldn’t bear seeing her sad so I cracked—Every time after that, she was WAAY more flirtatious.—
(LOL, you know…the timeline that was pointless…lol)
But anyways…She already knows that I like her, though that shouldn’t matter when it comes to me TELLING her. I guess I never felt it was necessary to ask or tell at that point since things were going so well.
And the things included stuff like ACTUALLY hugging me herself (Something she never did before, though we did hug) She actually TOLD me she always looks for my car when she gets to practice (Yeah…I know! I get excited about the little things!) She had to go to St. Louis once, but it got postponed. I told her that I had a bad feeling about it for some reason. She’s all “Of course you did, you did want me to go. You’d miss me too much.”
Yet again…This is the kind of stuff that confused me, yet made me happy. Because this was something she would never say before, and was said in a way that was …how you say…flirty? lol
Yet again, there’s more, but I’m SOO out of my mind right now. I hate sleep-aids.

Ever ask him exactly WHY he thinks she’s not ready for a relationship now? If she lets him say that and makes no effort to stop him or contradict him then again, she’s either not interested or not interested enough to conquer her natural anxiety/inertia/whatever.

Yeah, that’s a good idea. But man, all I’ve dealt with is HIM about this stuff. I am tired of that. That’s why I just want to leave him out of it. If he has an influence on her like that, then I need to do what I can to get HER opinion…not what she thinks he WANTS her to say. or what he says she thinks.

She’s been thinking about it for TWO YEARS bud. If she doesn’t have a clear head or a decided conclusion about it now she never will. You’re coming dangerously close to deciding you won’t take no (decisively uttered in behaviour if not in words) for an answer here.

Naw, because if she says “no” to me, then its her problem.
I’ve been sacrificing a TON for the last two years, suffering and all that. And if she can’t appreciate that at this time…

 

[Belgarion]

Bel, while some of us (myself included) did indulge in a little humorous caricature, you’ve got to admit that the way you’ve described it this situation is way over the top. When this is the case, caricature is something of a natural (though possibly not always the best) response.

Your reasoning would be solid if your caricature was targeted at the other side.
For instance, calling him an “Overseer” would be funny.

And I daresay (though you’ll probably deny this) that if anyone came to you and said exactly the same things that you’ve been saying here, you’d find the whole situation at least slightly absurd. And with your sense of humour would probably indulge in a little caricature yourself.

If someone came to me with a situation like this, I wouldn’t joke about it in a way that would hurt their feelings.
I’m a sensitive guy myself, and I’d be a jerk to insult them in a way like that. Sure, I might joke along with them, because being cheerful is good. But even my normal jokes aren’t insulting.

Without a problem? I wouldn’t call these comments you’ve made to me unproblematic, let alone those you’ve made to other people…

My point exactly. They were made to you, (or PLT) not other people

I’d hardly call that no problem. And I said as much at the time. I just understand that, like myself at your age, you don’t necessarily take kindly to people who tell you things that you don’t want to hear, even when they’re right and true.

I don’t want to hear that she is immature. But I will still consider that as a possibility. It’d be illogical to not do so.
However, advice may be right in some case, normal cases. But it doesn’t apply in all situations.

 

[happymommy]

I just went through the punishment of rereading this whole thread. I see a kid putting forth a problem. He got about 28 very respectful attempts to be helpful before he started getting a little snippy at post 28. Again at post 73 he started getting annoyed when people started questioning the motives of the girl and her family and whether she was all that. He accuses people who have been very patient of “not listening” when the problem is, we WERE listening. He said he wanted perspective from the other side. And 73 posts showed that many reasonable people were trying to tell him there are very few good explanations for the behavior he is encountering in that family.

Politeness reigns for the most part as people are trying to tell him he needs to really look at this more closely. Posters ignore his sometimes disrespectful attempts at humor and him making light of what looks like a creepy situation all the while as he tells us we all don’t have all the information needed in order to agree with his preconceived notions of how this will play out.

A few people suggest he quit talking to us and DO something. More pages spent discussing why he is doing precisely nothing, or can do nothing, or will do nothing until he thinks about it a little more.

Finally the wheels start to come off at post 121. He snaps at Yours Truly and gets really disrespectful because I used one word: “Cartoonish.” Though he has repeatedly told us happily and proudly how abnormal she is, how not normal he is, how he doesn’t want to be normal, how outside the realm of normalness he is, or he would be the norm and all that.

After comparing this situation to a famous Foghorn Leghorn cartoon, I told him he seemed something out of a story… a pen and ink drawing of a guy pining for the maiden.

Snap.

Out comes the anger. Other posters agree with me. Now he’s mad and argumentative and telling people he doesn’t want their advice because the picture he has painted for 121 posts has made their advice something he doesn’t want to hear anymore.

I suggest he likes the situation and doesn’t want a solution. Or he doesn’t want any posts where people have their own ideas of what to do. He can’t play it both ways. He can’t tell us in one post he can’t get close enough to the girl to give her a letter and then in another post tell us he and his mother have been invited on holiday with the family because they’re all so close. And then when we are confused, he tells us we’re not paying attention.

This has been 15 pages of contradictions and re-explanations that don’t quite align with the original storyline.

And then he snaps at us as if we are feeble-minded when we lose track. With sentences like “Does your illiteracy know no bounds? Or are you just forgetting to replace “And” with “or””

And calling other poster’s readings on this “whacked out theories” and calling other people jerks.

He can’t play victim when it comes to the tone this thread has taken. He paints a picture of a family with all sorts of siblings who he claims to be friends with and yet he can’t get one of them to put her on the phone and talk to him? The girl must be the only 20 year old in America without access to email. Is the whole family so scared of the father, even the adult children, that no one will either help him say Boo to her or be honest and tell him to go away? We suggest there is something very wrong with this whole picture and we are accused of ascribing to conspiracy theories.

Train wreck indeed.

All I can gather is that no one should post to Belgarion unless you want to agree with him and encourage him in his preconceived course of actions. 15 pages into this and it is clear he really did not really want advice.

When he got advice he did not want to hear, he accused the posters of not listening. Or worse.

You re-read the whole thread It’s all I can do to read today’s posts!!!

 

[LilyM]

A past? Well…His rules would prevent that completely. So he does a good job preventing that kind of stuff, but those rules have huge drawbacks, too.
Still…He can’t trust her around a guy while at home in the living room watching a movie with the family?!? LOL

He’s not with her 24/7, of course things can happen.

well, I’ve gone over there with my family before. Its not that same as going over there alone JUST to spend time with them, and for her to spend some more time with me.

Hey, half a cookie is better than none for someone who’s really in love.

1 1/2 years after it started----I find out that she really DOES like me, 100% confirmed.The next day, I talk to her dad, he says I can come over etc—two or so weeks later, he takes it back. —I stop talking to her, because I’m extremely hurt (He said it was her decision as well as his)

Back up there. BIG red flag. It was her decision completely, whatever he might’ve said, since he himself was happy to have you over when it appeared she wanted that. And her decision stands - unless she explicitly tells you otherwise. No matter what else she may do or say. If the father didn’t have any problems inviting you in the first place, he’d also have no problems reinviting you if she changed her mind, surely.

But anyways…She already knows that I like her, though that shouldn’t matter when it comes to me TELLING her. I guess I never felt it was necessary to ask or tell at that point since things were going so well.

And when things are going so badly it also shouldn’t really be necessary to ask or tell either. But you will insist on hoping against hope …

And the things included stuff like ACTUALLY hugging me herself (Something she never did before, though we did hug) She actually TOLD me she always looks for my car when she gets to practice (Yeah…I know! I get excited about the little things!) She had to go to St. Louis once, but it got postponed. I told her that I had a bad feeling about it for some reason. She’s all “Of course you did, you did want me to go. You’d miss me too much.”
Yet again…This is the kind of stuff that confused me, yet made me happy. Because this was something she would never say before, and was said in a way that was …how you say…flirty? lol
Yet again, there’s more, but I’m SOO out of my mind right now. I hate sleep-aids.

This may be what the father is suspicious of - maybe she has a history of flirting with guys without intent. Women do that, you know. Probably she also feels safe because she knows it can’t go anywhere - like I feel safer being physically affectionate and even flirtatious with gay guys.

And don’t say ‘but she’s different’ - you obviously don’t know her that well if her father had to be the one to tell you she’d decided against seeing you.

Yeah, that’s a good idea. But man, all I’ve dealt with is HIM about this stuff. I am tired of that. That’s why I just want to leave him out of it. If he has an influence on her like that, then I need to do what I can to get HER opinion…not what she thinks he WANTS her to say. or what he says she thinks.

Hate to say it - if he has an influence on her like that, then it’s most likely because his opinion IS her opinion (in other words they think alike on the issue, for whatever reasons). And it’s obviously her call to put you in a position where you can only deal with him. Like I said a ways back, if she wanted independence, even a little, she could get it in a million different ways.

 

[Belgarion]

You re-read the whole thread It’s all I can do to read today’s posts!!!

I can hardly keep up!!

He’s not with her 24/7, of course things can happen.

You’d be surprised. There’s always someone in the family with her. But that’s no different than the rest of them

Hey, half a cookie is better than none for someone who’s really in love.

LOL!
Very true.

Back up there. BIG red flag. It was her decision completely, whatever he might’ve said, since he himself was happy to have you over when it appeared she wanted that. And her decision stands - unless she explicitly tells you otherwise. No matter what else she may do or say. If the father didn’t have any problems inviting you in the first place, he’d also have no problems reinviting you if she changed her mind, surely.

Bid red text

Shoot, I’m not remembering what it was…But the SIL and my sister seemed to agree that it was likely just him. But you bring a valid point, despite the fact that that does not bode well for me. And that’s something I need to confirm. If she loves me, then she’ll want to keep me around…but if she doesnt…

And when things are going so badly it also shouldn’t really be necessary to ask or tell either. But you will insist on hoping against hope …

Well, yeah. Would you rather me be depressed while I’m waiting to give the letter?

This may be what the father is suspicious of - maybe she has a history of flirting with guys without intent. Women do that, you know. Probably she also feels safe because she knows it can’t go anywhere - like I feel safer being physically affectionate and even flirtatious with gay guys.

Worst-case scenario
I’ve seen her with other guys though. She’s friendly, but nowhere near as attentive. And she doesn’t stare and blush

And don’t say ‘but she’s different’ - you obviously don’t know her that well if her father had to be the one to tell you she’d decided against seeing you.

Yeah, THAT was something. Don’t think that I’ve completely forgiven her for that. That’s another thing we need to talk about. Ultimately that’s all I want! To be able to talk to her!!

Hate to say it - if he has an influence on her like that, then it’s most likely because his opinion IS her opinion (in other words they think alike on the issue, for whatever reasons). And it’s obviously her call to put you in a position where you can only deal with him. Like I said a ways back, if she wanted independence, even a little, she could get it in a million different ways.

Yep. That could be it.
But I’ve noticed in my time spent with her that these things contradict each other.
For instance, she would give me hugs, enjoy them etc. (This according to an eyewitness, in addition to my own observations) But then she stopped. And would practically hide from me to avoid me hugging her. And she declined when I asked her, too. Why? Did she suddenly decide that she didn’t like hugs anymore? No. It was her dad.
There are other situations of course…

 

[Belgarion]

Oh, I need to add one more important point that I just confirmed.

The SIL has told me that the family treated them differently after they got married. They don’t interfere with their marriage, and she says that she doesn’t believe the other kids have that problem either. So individuation, and interference is not LIKELY going to be a problem.
Its not 100% certain of course, but I just felt that I should add that.

That makes me a feel a lot better, actually…now I just have to worry about the NOW…

 

[LilyM]

Oh, I need to add one more important point that I just confirmed.

The SIL has told me that the family treated them differently after they got married. They don’t interfere with their marriage, and she says that she doesn’t believe the other kids have that problem either. So individuation, and interference is not LIKELY going to be a problem.
Its not 100% certain of course, but I just felt that I should add that.

That makes me a feel a lot better, actually…now I just have to worry about the NOW…

And all the married ones got exactly the same treatment prior to marriage - no phone calls or email, no talking to boys? And were the same themselves - still at home at twenty although able to move out?

How is it that you know her sister in law (and presumably her brother as well) and the sister in law is happy to discuss the situation with you ad nauseam - yet between the two of you are seemingly incapable of getting an opportunity to talk to her, or a message through to her? Surely the brother could help if she can’t?

 

[chevalier]

I’m getting a hunch the father is acting irrationally and simply delaying matters, while thinking solutions will somehow come to his head. Or maybe he’s testing you and seeing how you’re changing over time in this sensitive age of yours.

I believe there’s no basis to think he considers you ineligible. If that were true, he wouldn’t have budged the last time you employed silent treatment.

At any rate, you probably aren’t going to learn much new here and, contrary to what you say, I do believe you’re looking for reassurance to a large extent. Get some quality time with buddies and with your family? Take a break from the whole situation? Spend two weeks elsewhere, in so far as you can afford that without compromising your duties?

 

[Belgarion]

And all the married ones got exactly the same treatment prior to marriage - no phone calls or email, no talking to boys? And were the same themselves - still at home at twenty although able to move out?

Yeah, pretty much. But the email and IM stuff wasn’t something that came up until after the latest marriage, as far as I know. But the others didn’t use it (again, as far as I know)

How is it that you know her sister in law (and presumably her brother as well) and the sister in law is happy to discuss the situation with you ad nauseam - yet between the two of you are seemingly incapable of getting an opportunity to talk to her, or a message through to her? Surely the brother could help if she can’t?

Well, I have known her for a long time. Her brother is married to my sister

But they help me, not in a proactive way (Am I using that word right? ) but in giving me advice etc. I understand why she doesn’t want to actively do something, because she doesn’t want to CREATE problems between her and the family. I agree with her, because its MY problem, not hers. She shouldn’t have to take the fall for me.

I’m getting a hunch the father is acting irrationally and simply delaying matters, while thinking solutions will somehow come to his head. Or maybe he’s testing you and seeing how you’re changing over time in this sensitive age of yours.

Maybe that’s it. Or maybe he’s waiting til I get far enough along on my career path. In fact, he’s mentioned that he wants me to do that. But it makes no sense when it comes to courting. He asked me once, “What if you want to get married sooner?” I said:“I won’t!! I don’t want to rush things!” or something to that effect.
I can work and court at the same time, for cryin’ out loud. Maturity, however, doesn’t seem to be an issue. Though maybe he WANTS me to be assertive…wishful thinking…lol

I believe there’s no basis to think he considers you ineligible. If that were true, he wouldn’t have budged the last time you employed silent treatment.

Exactly. In fact, after he took back his concession, he wanted to talk to me again. I basically said “No,” and left. So it worked on BOTH Of them, really.

At any rate, you probably aren’t going to learn much new here and, contrary to what you say, I do believe you’re looking for reassurance to a large extent. Get some quality time with buddies and with your family? Take a break from the whole situation? Spend two weeks elsewhere, in so far as you can afford that without compromising your duties?

lol
Yeah, well I can’t really do much of that. lol
Yeah, I said perhaps I’m looking for reassurance, but not so much towards just sitting around, mostly just reasurance towards the action of giving a letter. Maybe

 

[whatevergirl]

I’m going to get fat eating all this popcorn.

 

[Belgarion]

I’m going to get fat eating all this popcorn.

You’re making me crave popcorn!!!

Act II Butter lovers…YUM…

 

[LilyM]

But they help me, not in a proactive way (Am I using that word right? ) but in giving me advice etc. I understand why she doesn’t want to actively do something, because she doesn’t want to CREATE problems between her and the family. I agree with her, because its MY problem, not hers. She shouldn’t have to take the fall for me.

Uh huh - so she gets to encourage you to get out there and dodge the bullets (thus effectively contributing to your problem if not her own) while sitting safe and cosy out of harm’s way herself. What about the brother though? Surely he has nothing to fear from his father? What about the other mutual friends who don’t have the same difficulties?

Maybe that’s it. Or maybe he’s waiting til I get far enough along on my career path. In fact, he’s mentioned that he wants me to do that. But it makes no sense when it comes to courting. He asked me once, “What if you want to get married sooner?” I said:“I won’t!! I don’t want to rush things!” or something to that effect.
I can work and court at the same time, for cryin’ out loud. Maturity, however, doesn’t seem to be an issue. Though maybe he WANTS me to be assertive…wishful thinking…lol

WHAT? He’s not letting you see his daughter and then has the hide to dictate terms to you as if you were? And ask you about your plans re marriage? I’d be seriously pissed - he has no right to do any of that until AFTER you’re seeing her.

Exactly. In fact, after he took back his concession, he wanted to talk to me again. I basically said “No,” and left. So it worked on BOTH Of them, really.

Just as sad that it worked as that you employed such a tactic. I mean if I beat my dog that might make it obedient, right …

 

[numealinesimpet]

Well, this is the opinion of a father of ten (nine still in the world) … Perhaps there’s a culture difference here. The lady is 20, and the father is acting as though she is 16. Is he just stalling for time, wanting to keep his grownup children around the house? That is a sin, and many otherwise excellent parents fall into it. Having raised their children wonderfully, they cannot bring themselves to take the final step, which is what it was all about in the first place: train the young fledglings to fly, and to take their own place in this world. We parents must endure the bittersweetness of it.

No, my own advice is not to Move On. God has blessed and sanctified the love between man and woman. My advice (from Paddy’s Isle) is to pour it out to her - preferably face-to-face, but if not, by letter. But no hugs that time, forced or unforced! Play it right and there will be a lifetime for that! And do not be afraid of Father’s anger! Be a man!

I have believed that it is in the heart of man to love the woman’s beauty - of body and of mind. And it is in the heart of woman to love the man’s strength - of body and of mind.

Remember Shakespeare:
*
“There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune.
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
is bound in shallows and in miseries.

On such a full sea are we now afloat.
And we must take the current when it serves,
or lose our ventures.”*

And as we say around here: Go for it, boy! Don’t wait for fortune – go out and make it! God bless!

 

[Belgarion]

Uh huh - so she gets to encourage you to get out there and dodge the bullets (thus effectively contributing to your problem if not her own) while sitting safe and cosy out of harm’s way herself. What about the brother though? Surely he has nothing to fear from his father? What about the other mutual friends who don’t have the same difficulties?

Its not like that. And even if it were, I don’t care. She helps me enough figuring things out.

And the brother…hmm…He has helped me before, too. He was actually the first one I talked to (other than my own family) about dating the young woman.
Likewise, he probably doesn’t want to create problems. But then again, if I really needed a favor, they’d help me.

WHAT? He’s not letting you see his daughter and then has the hide to dictate terms to you as if you were? And ask you about your plans re marriage? I’d be seriously pissed - he has no right to do any of that until AFTER you’re seeing her.

Yeah…no kidding…
I’m not PISSED, but I am aware that it is BS (Even more so now)

Just as sad that it worked as that you employed such a tactic. I mean if I beat my dog that might make it obedient, right …

Eh, she got over it fast…
Still, I know what you mean, but considering the “Sanctions” on communication, I couldn’t do much else…Plus, it was less of a tactic and more of a reaction. Seriously! She just blew me off!

BTW, smacking your dog in the nose with a newspaper is helpful…Not to compare any one of THEM to a dog, but you get the analogy.

 

[Belgarion]

Well, this is the opinion of a father of ten (nine still in the world) … Perhaps there’s a culture difference here. The lady is 20, and the father is acting as though she is 16. Is he just stalling for time, wanting to keep his grownup children around the house? That is a sin, and many otherwise excellent parents fall into it. Having raised their children wonderfully, they cannot bring themselves to take the final step, which is what it was all about in the first place: train the young fledglings to fly, and to take their own place in this world. We parents must endure the bittersweetness of it.

No, my own advice is not to Move On. God has blessed and sanctified the love between man and woman. My advice (from Paddy’s Isle) is to pour it out to her - preferably face-to-face, but if not, by letter. But no hugs that time, forced or unforced! Play it right and there will be a lifetime for that! And do not be afraid of Father’s anger! Be a man!

I have believed that it is in the heart of man to love the woman’s beauty - of body and of mind. And it is in the heart of woman to love the man’s strength - of body and of mind.

Remember Shakespeare:
*
“There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune.
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
is bound in shallows and in miseries.

On such a full sea are we now afloat.
And we must take the current when it serves,
or lose our ventures.”*

And as we say around here: Go for it, boy! Don’t wait for fortune – go out and make it! God bless!

…Not to sound like a complete and total wimp…but that nearly made me cry.
That was beautiful. The entire thing.
You’re absolutely right.
I certainly hope that it is meant to be, and I thank you very much for your post.

 

[LilyM]

But then again, if I really needed a favor, they’d help me.

Let me spell it out - YOU. REALLY. NEED. A. FAVOUR. Really. It’ll all be resolved so much quicker if you let him or her or both help out.

BTW, smacking your dog in the nose with a newspaper is helpful…Not to compare any one of THEM to a dog, but you get the analogy.

There are better ways of disciplining a dog, usually.

 

[Jay53]

I’m getting a hunch the father is acting irrationally and simply delaying matters, while thinking solutions will somehow come to his head. Or maybe he’s testing you and seeing how you’re changing over time in this sensitive age of yours.

I believe there’s no basis to think he considers you ineligible. If that were true, he wouldn’t have budged the last time you employed silent treatment.

Maybe the father is actually following along with this thread and that is the reason for his actions.