Is Tridentine Mass Episcopal or Roman Catholic?

[ASimpleSinner]

What the Charismatics and Pentecostals do is not the Biblical Speaking in tongues. Try taking a look at the Book of Acts. They spoke REAL languages, not the gibberish happening in Pentecostal Churches.
A Greek Orthodox Priest told me he was at one of those meetings once and heard some people speaking Greek, so he went over to them and realized they were cursing God in very bad gutter Greek.

This is not the first I have heard of this! And not just in Greek.

That it happens at all is bothersome and worrying to me.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Have you ever been to a Pentecostal Church? I’m thinking ’ Full Gospel ’ or ’ Apostolic Faith’ those are two Trinitarian Churches, they can get fairly wild sometimes, every body shouting, jumping around, screaming, talking in tongues all at once.

Nope, never had the desire to go. I go to the circus when it comes, and that seems to satisfy me until it comes again.

I have been to some very beautiful Catholic Charismatic Masses back in the 70s. I’m not talking about them, they are within the Catholic Church, and have the approval of the Bishop. I feel if it’s done within that context in an orderly manner, then it’s good. I couldn’t see it happening in the Orthodox Church, but I heard about something like that years ago.

I’m not defending Pentecostals or other Protestant rituals – I merely point out that speaking in tongues is scriptural, and Saint Paul practiced it.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I’m not defending Pentecostals or other Protestant rituals – I merely point out that speaking in tongues is scriptural, and Saint Paul practiced it.

That what St. Paul did was speaking in tongues, I have no doubt. That this modern manifestation of SIT is the same? I have serious doubts.

That it could or would have a place in the Mass? I think that is a gross abuse.

That it could be somehow worked into the Tridentine Mass at all? Most certainly not.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That what St. Paul did was speaking in tongues, I have no doubt. That this modern manifestation of SIT is the same? I have serious doubts.

It appears to be – how can we tell it’s not?

That it could or would have a place in the Mass? I think that is a gross abuse.

Why?

Paul said it should be limited to two or three, and frankly, I’ve never seen even one – but if someone should be called to talk in tongues, I’d be hard pressed to call them sinful.

That it could be somehow worked into the Tridentine Mass at all? Most certainly not.

From Paul’s writing, it appears to be spontaneous – it could happen in any service. Again, Paul cautioned us to limit it to two or three if it happens. I would agree with that – I wouldn’t want to spend a couple of hours listening to dozens and dozens of people talking in tongues and then waiting for translations.

 

[obadiah]

It appears to be – how can we tell it’s not?

Why?

Paul said it should be limited to two or three, and frankly, I’ve never seen even one – but if someone should be called to talk in tongues, I’d be hard pressed to call them sinful.

From Paul’s writing, it appears to be spontaneous – it could happen in any service. Again, Paul cautioned us to limit it to two or three if it happens. I would agree with that – I wouldn’t want to spend a couple of hours listening to dozens and dozens of people talking in tongues and then waiting for translations.

I’ve always wanted to go to one of those services and quote a psalm in Hebrew or Greek, and wait for the interpretation. It could get quite interesting to say the least.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’ve always wanted to go to one of those services and quote a psalm in Hebrew or Greek, and wait for the interpretation. It could get quite interesting to say the least.

Wouldn’t that be a sacrilege? After all, you wouldn’t be acting under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and you’d be doing it to mock the service and the celebrants.

 

[obadiah]

Wouldn’t that be a sacrilege? After all, you wouldn’t be acting under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and you’d be doing it to mock the service and the celebrants.

Maybe it would be the Holy Spirit inspiring me to test their claims of true speaking in tongues. And I would never do it to mock them, just as a test. If what they do is really the Holy Spirit, then a true interpretation would follow, and I would be satisfied it really was the Spirit of God.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Maybe it would be the Holy Spirit inspiring me to test their claims of true speaking in tongues.

Just like the Holy Spirit might “inspire” a practitioner of Voodoo to recieve communion, then use the Host for magical purposes?

I hardly think the excuse will hold water.

And I would never do it to mock them, just as a test.

I recall the devil tried to put Christ to the test, too.

If what they do is really the Holy Spirit, then a true interpretation would follow, and I would be satisfied it really was the Spirit of God.

And if Christ had thrown himself down from the high place, angels would have borne him up – as the devil said.

 

[obadiah]

Just like the Holy Spirit might “inspire” a practitioner of Voodoo to recieve communion, then use the Host for magical purposes?

I hardly think the excuse will hold water.

I recall the devil tried to put Christ to the test, too.

And if Christ had thrown himself down from the high place, angels would have borne him up – as the devil said.

Please, I’ve seen some really strange things come out of this tongue talking movement, people barking like dogs, rolling around the floor, really strange things.
I wouldn’t feel it was wrong at all.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Please, I’ve seen some really strange things come out of this tongue talking movement, people barking like dogs, rolling around the floor, really strange things.
I wouldn’t feel it was wrong at all.

If it bothers you, stay away from it. But don’t disrupt a service for the purpose of putting the celebrants to the test.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<< ’ Apostolic Faith’ those are two Trinitarian Churches,>>

“Apostolic faith” is a code word for Oneness, that is Sabellian Modalism.

They are NOT Trinitarian.

In fact, they reject and even blaspheme the teaching of the Holy Trinity.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<I’ve always wanted to go to one of those services and quote a psalm in Hebrew or Greek, and wait for the interpretation. It could get quite interesting to say the least.>>

I know someone who went to just such a gathering and said, “Patir imon, o en tois ouranois, agiasthito to onoma sou; eltheto i vasileias sou…”

An “interpreter” stood up and started the standard, “My children, I am with you to bless you” rap.

The first person said, “You mean the Holy Spirit doesn’t recognize the Lord’s Prayer in Greek?”

 

[francesco920]

That what St. Paul did was speaking in tongues, I have no doubt. That this modern manifestation of SIT is the same? I have serious doubts.

I agree with this, especially because this phenomenon is occurring in Protestant groups that are far from Catholicism in belief, even compared to other Protestants. I am not saying that I know for sure that the tongues are not the same as those the Apostle Paul speaks of, but I find it hard to believe that they would occur so much among Christians who deny much of the Faith (e.g. no belief in the sacraments) and hold novel beliefs such as OSAS (not that I am saying their faith is insincere or that they do not have genuine love for the Lord, just to be clear.) Heck, some of these Pentecostals are not even trinitarian and yet they have the gift of tongues!? It seems hard to believe, IMO.

Hey, if the tongues are real, God bless them. But even if they are I do not understand the unbiblical importance placed on them, especially when I hear about some Pentecostals (Charismatics?) saying that if one is saved he will speak in tongues.

By chance, has anybody ever heard of unbaptized person(s) speaking in tongues? I know that most groups that have this widespread occurrence of tongues do not believe in the necessity of baptism, that’s why I ask. I think it would be interesting to have a case of an unbaptized person speaking in tongues.

 

[obadiah]

<< ’ Apostolic Faith’ those are two Trinitarian Churches,>>

“Apostolic faith” is a code word for Oneness, that is Sabellian Modalism.

They are NOT Trinitarian.

In fact, they reject and even blaspheme the teaching of the Holy Trinity.

I’m not referring to the United Pentecostal Church, or any other Oneness movement Church… There is an Apostolic Faith Church which is Trinitarian, I used to belong to one in Portland Oregon.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I agree with this, especially because this phenomenon is occurring in Protestant groups that are far from Catholicism in belief, even compared to other Protestants.

Protestants also have “communion.” Does that mean we Catholics should spurn communion?

Some Protestants also have “bishops.” Does that mean we should spurn our bishops?

I am not saying that I know for sure that the tongues are not the same as those the Apostle Paul speaks of, but I find it hard to believe that they would occur so much among Christians who deny much of the Faith (e.g. no belief in the sacraments) and hold novel beliefs such as OSAS (not that I am saying their faith is insincere or that they do not have genuine love for the Lord, just to be clear.) Heck, some of these Pentecostals are not even trinitarian and yet they have the gift of tongues!? It seems hard to believe, IMO.

This is not about Pentecostals or others who have seized a smidgen of the Bible and build a religion around it. It’s about charismatic Catholics who practice what Saint Paul practiced.

Don’t test or tempt them – anymore than you would want to be temped or tested.

Hey, if the tongues are real, God bless them. But even if they are I do not understand the unbiblical importance placed on them, especially when I hear about some Pentecostals (Charismatics?) saying that if one is saved he will speak in tongues.

Again, this is not about Pentecostals but about charismatic Catholics.

By chance, has anybody ever heard of unbaptized person(s) speaking in tongues? I know that most groups that have this widespread occurrence of tongues do not believe in the necessity of baptism, that’s why I ask. I think it would be interesting to have a case of an unbaptized person speaking in tongues.

I don’t really care what various Protestant sects do – but when Catholics do it, I will not ridicule or denegrate them.

 

[francesco920]

Protestants also have “communion.” Does that mean we Catholics should spurn communion?

Some Protestants also have “bishops.” Does that mean we should spurn our bishops?

Sorry, I wasn’t being clear. I was not saying that the gift of tongues itself is not real, I was only saying that I find it difficult to believe it would occur among those groups.

This is not about Pentecostals or others who have seized a smidgen of the Bible and build a religion around it. It’s about charismatic Catholics who practice what Saint Paul practiced.

Don’t test or tempt them – anymore than you would want to be temped or tested.

Again, this is not about Pentecostals but about charismatic Catholics.

I don’t really care what various Protestant sects do – but when Catholics do it, I will not ridicule or denegrate them.

Firstly, I was not denigrating or mocking anybody. Secondly, I was not referring to my Catholic brethren. And thirdly, I was not tempting or testing anybody. I cannot understand where you got that from my remarks. I was merely expressing my skepticism about (and I admit I might be wrong, as I did previously)the current phenomenon of tongues, especially among the more heterodox Protestant denominations.

At any rate, I have no problem with Catholics who do this as long as the proper biblical and traditional teachings are followed. And like I said, if this is the will of the Holy Spirit, GOD BLESS THEM.

 

[obadiah]

Protestants also have “communion.” Does that mean we Catholics should spurn communion?

Some Protestants also have “bishops.” Does that mean we should spurn our bishops?

This is not about Pentecostals or others who have seized a smidgen of the Bible and build a religion around it. It’s about charismatic Catholics who practice what Saint Paul practiced.

Don’t test or tempt them – anymore than you would want to be temped or tested.

Again, this is not about Pentecostals but about charismatic Catholics.

I don’t really care what various Protestant sects do – but when Catholics do it, I will not ridicule or denegrate them.

Seems to me you are afraid that they would be proven to have false signs. " Try the Spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
" Prove all things, hold fast to that which is true."

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sorry, I wasn’t being clear. I was not saying that the gift of tongues itself is not real, I was only saying that I find it difficult to believe it would occur among those groups.

If by “those groups” you mean Protestant sects, I agree with you.

Firstly, I was not denigrating or mocking anybody. Secondly, I was not referring to my Catholic brethren. And thirdly, I was not tempting or testing anybody. I cannot understand where you got that from my remarks. I was merely expressing my skepticism about (and I admit I might be wrong, as I did previously)the current phenomenon of tongues, especially among the more heterodox Protestant denominations.

Who here would argue that the Protestants have valid orders? And without valid orders, they are unlikely to valid services or practices.

At any rate, I have no problem with Catholics who do this as long as the proper biblical and traditional teachings are followed. And like I said, if this is the will of the Holy Spirit, GOD BLESS THEM.

And so say I.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<Hey, if the tongues are real, God bless them. But even if they are I do not understand the unbiblical importance placed on them, especially when I hear about some Pentecostals (Charismatics?) saying that if one is saved he will speak in tongues.

By chance, has anybody ever heard of unbaptized person(s) speaking in tongues? I know that most groups that have this widespread occurrence of tongues do not believe in the necessity of baptism, that’s why I ask. I think it would be interesting to have a case of an unbaptized person speaking in tongues.>>

Yes, I have heard of this happening. A few years ago in one Charismatic magazine there was even an article about the dangerous trend of a “Pentecost without Christ”–that is, speaking in tongues with NO repentance, and no sorrow for sin. YET the article still insisted on speaking in tongues was the “sign of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.” The unspoken conclusion of this article is ominous: It is possible to have a Pentecostal/Charismatic experience WITHOUT any faith in Jesus.

 

[Holy_Roller]

I agree with that. But the two are not to be understood to be one in the same. Namely a Mass offered with special intention for healing the sick, is not exclusively in the domain of the Charismatic movement.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Extreme_Unction_Rogier_Van_der_Weyden.jpg

You missed the basic bullding block again! We Charismatics and Pentecostals believe that we have been called to holiness, witness to the Gospel, and building up of Christ’s Body in unity and peace. We do not heal anyone.

This is a letter (N.45.825) from the Vatican dated 21 February 2007

Dear Mr. Panozza,

 The Holy Father was pleased to receive your letter informing him that this year marks the fortieth anniversary of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.  He very much appreciates the devoted sentiments which you expressed and he thanks you for the prayerful solidarity which you expressed on behalf of the members of the Renewal.

On this happy occasion His Holiness joins you in giving thanks to the Father for the many gifts bestowed upon the Church in the past four decades. It is his hope that an ever richer experience of the Spirit will led to an increased thirst for holiness, a more convincing witness to the Gospel and an unswerving commitment to the building up of Christ’s Body in unity and peace.

Commending all of you to the loving intercession of Mary, Mother of the Church, the Holy Father cordially imparts his Apostolic Blessing as a pledge of abiding joy and strength in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yours sincerely,

Leonardo Sandri
Substitute

Mr. Allan Panozza
President
International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services
Palazzo della Cancelleria
00120 CITTA DEL VATICANO