Islam and Original Sin

[Khalfan]

Hi, I’d like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. Including our Muslim brethren. I don’t know if this thread will continue, I’ll be gone for the next 8 days. So, I’d like to sum up what I think has become crystal clear in this discussion:

1. Muslims don’t understand Catholic doctrine.
2. Muslims misrepresent the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin.
3. In its misrepresentation of the Catholic Doctrine of Original Sin, Islam contradicts its own teaching. (i.e. that Allah did not punish all when He kicked Adam and Eve out of Paradise and that Adam and Eve were not created for Paradise.)

In addition, we can contrast the two Religious Teachings thus:

1. Islam teaches that Allah created man for the express purpose that man would sin.

In contrast, the Church teaches that God created man for Himself.

1. Islam’s teaching does not account for man’s sin, for man’s suffering, death, or for his salvation.

Catholic doctrine based upon Original Sin ties every loose end. It explains man’s propensity to sin, why God permits even the good to suffer, why men must die, and why God prefers to save mankind out of His extraordinary love.

The Beauty, Logic and Wisdom of Catholic teaching should be plain for everyone to see.

May God bless you all,

Sincerely,

De Maria

I know you will come back. Inshaa Allaah…

 

[Khalfan]

Malik Muwatta

Book 46, Number 46.1.1:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu’z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa. Musa rebuked Adam, 'You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.’ Adam said to him, ‘You are Musa to whom Allah gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His message.’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Do you then censure me for a matter which was decreed for me before I was created?’ "

Even I imagine, if Adam wasn’t sinned, and we are living in the garden… But that’s not the reality. Moses (pbuh) too is rebooking Adam (pbuh) but that wasn’t the reality.

"And I free not myself (from the blame). Verily, the (human) self is inclined to evil, except when my Lord bestows His Mercy… Sura Yussef aya 53

Yousuf (pbuh) talking about the potential of sin exist in all of us.

InJesus, I do respect your scholarly knowledge and ability to talk broadly. Please don’t make it small.

 

[Khalfan]

add to the fact that Adam led people astray the following aya:

That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear. S. 16:25

If I do sin, and I teach my son also to sin, a share in his sin will come to me, becasue I mislead him. Teaching of righteous deeds also have the same effect. Which is exactly opposite to the sin transgression concept in christianity and logical too. In this way, people may stop misleading people and do righteous deeds that may effect not only himself but also his family, society and all their descendents. I can see it in our own place like people make well of drinking water, give land to make roads, making buildings for schools, hospitals etc. because they do expect the prayer of all those people who use them and the reward from God whenever it gets in use by someone untill it exists.

In the christian concept, if it is true, I will ask God on judgement day, “how can you demand my payment, why you kept me separate from you, since Adam or Eve never asked me before they sin?”

but here we read:

Every soul earns only to its own account; no soul laden bears the load of another. S. 6:164

whatever one is correct, Adam led people astray as per hadith, and people carry his burden.

This is the true teaching of Islam. The other verse too says the same. That verse reminds us about our responsibility of the sin -misleading people. That sin countinueses even if we die. As far as that sin, that I DID exists, share of the punishment too will come to me.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali said in reference to Q. 2:36:

… Note the transition in Arabic from the singular number in ii. 33, to the dual in ii. 35, and the plural here [2:36], which I have indicated in English by “All ye people.” Evidently Adam is the type of all mankind, and the sexes go together in all spiritual matters. Moreover, the expulsion applied to Adam, Eve, and Satan, and the Arabic plural is appropriate for any number greater than two

 

[Montalban]

They had to know their nakedness someway at sometime. This is the way they knew it.

We’re at cross purposes here. They may have known that they were naked, but ‘known’ here means as in knowing that they were sinning.

It’s like instead of saying someone had sex with someone the Bible writes it like “And then he *knew *her”

 

[Khalfan]

We’re at cross purposes here. They may have known that they were naked, but ‘known’ here means as in knowing that they were sinning.

It’s like instead of saying someone had sex with someone the Bible writes it like “And then he *knew *her”

In that same Biblical language, ‘I knew my wife in our first night’, does that mean, we sinned? No my dear, every knowing is not sin.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

The **first Question **from Sirajuddin, a Christian:

According to the Christian beliefs, Christ’s mission to come in this world was for Love of the humanity and to offer his Sacrifice for the fellow human being. Was this the mission of the founder of Islam also in the same meaning or not? Could his mission be described in other better words than Love or Sacrifice?

The Response by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908, continued from my previous post #63:

“The cure of sin and abstention from it lies in falling in love with GodAllahYHWH and adoring it. Hence all the virtuous works done appropriately spring forth from the fountain of love shower water on the fire of sin because with doing good works for GodAllahYHWH one affixes seal of authentication on his love. The belief in God when that becomes one’s first priority over every thing else even to the extent against one’s own self. This is first level of love, and is like state of a tree when it is first planted in the ground. The second level is Istighfar which means one has become distanced from God and one has to endeavor to overcome the human misdemeanor a lot so that one’s filth inside is not exposed.

This situation is like a tree when with vigor it spreads its roots in the ground and stands firm on it on its own. And the third state is to focus one’s whole attention on repentance; and this is like the tree when it nears its roots to the water resource and sucks it in like of an infant sucking from the nipples of his mother. This is the philosophy of sin; it originates by distancing from GodAllahYHWH, therefore its cure lies in desisting from this state; which is to fortify contact with God. How non-serious are those irrational humans who consider suicide being a cure of sin, when surely it is not?

This might be a piece of humor; if one wants to show sympathy with someone else who has a severe headache and for that one cracks off one’s own head with a stone? Or with an obsession to save life of others; one commits suicide. Would that individual be considered a sane person? To me it would be hard to find one; there cannot be a rational person in this world who would consider such suicide an example of being merciful with the humans. No doubt human love or kindness is praise worthy thing and to bear hardship or to suffer for others is the symbol of courageous men indeed.

But aren’t there other rational ways for doing such hard jobs what is told of Jesus. Alas if Jesus would have saved himself from the suicide; and for comfort of others he would have adopted rational ways for suffering for others like men of wisdom. Thus the world would have much benefited from his person. For example there is some poor fellow who needs a house to live in and he can hardly afford to employ a mason to build his house and it happens that some mason becomes kind on him and gets busy building his house without any remuneration, in few days hard labor and struggle the mason builds house for the poor. This mason would be indeed a very praise worthy person. And no doubt he has done kindness on this poor fellow and needy and built his house. But if that mason perishes his own head with a stone to show kindness to the poor fellow of what benefit this action is for that poor fellow. Alas! There are very few people in this world who perform acts of virtue or kindness treading on paths of rationality. If it is true that Jesus with this thought in mind opted for death for larger benefit of saving the people and for that very purpose indeed he committed a suicide; then Jesus’ condition is quite deplorable and this is not an event worth mentioning before others but it is worth concealing.

And if we judge this principle of the Christians with the true meaning of curse, which has been in fact proposed for Jesus, we would sorrowfully say by making this one principle Christians have done blasphemy that has not been done or thought of by any nation in the world to his ProphetMessenger. Because burdening Jesus with curse though for three days only; it is in the belief of the Christians and if Jesus is not made a cursed person then all Christian concepts of redemption, atonement and sacrifice etc become untrue. The backbone or pillar of this entire belief is curse.”
Unquote

Thanks

 

[Montalban]

In that same Biblical language, ‘I knew my wife in our first night’, does that mean, we sinned? No my dear, every knowing is not sin.

Knowing someone is simply an example of a type of language given in the Bible.

I’m explaining this by way of analogy

 

[Abraxsis]

I always thought that “he knew her” in the Bible meant they had sexual relations…

 

[Montalban]

I always thought that “he knew her” in the Bible meant they had sexual relations…

Yes it does.

But I was trying to show how Adam and Eve might be said to ‘know’ that they were naked… as a counter to Khalfan’s objections.

Obviously they always knew that they were naked, in the sense of they were aware that they were in a certain state.

But, once they’d sinned, they ‘knew they were naked’ means that they became aware that they had sinned.

Khalfan’s objecting by way of a literal interpretation. I’m showing that the Bible has certain ways of expressing certain concepts

It was, after-all the tree of ‘knowledge’.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

The first Question from Sirajuddin, a Christian:

According to the Christian beliefs, Christ’s mission to come in this world was for Love of the humanity and to offer his Sacrifice for the fellow human being. Was this the mission of the founder of Islam also in the same meaning or not? Could his mission be described in other better words than Love or Sacrifice?

The Response by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908, continued from my previous post #20 :

When we contemplate on the nature of sin from the aspect of inherent spiritual philosophy behind it and its reality our research also confirms this fact that this belief is a bad belief. The sin in reality is a poison created when a human is dispossessed of the obedience of God and deprived of His fervent love and loving memory of Him and is totally unfortunate in this respect. Like a tree when it is uprooted and is unable to suck in water from the earth its process of becoming dried up starts and all its greenery gets ruined.

Just like it the individual whose heart is uprooted from the love of God, that dryness of sin prevails over him, hence its cure lies in God’s law of nature in three distinct ways:

1. Love
2. Istighfar which means the natural desire to press something or to remain covered and sheltered. As long as a tree has its roots imbedded in earth it hopes to get green again. Compensate, recompense, make up for
3. The third cure is repentance i.e. to suck water of life with utmost humility and to bend towards God and to draw near Him to get respite from the sinful posture by doing appropriate and good works and repentance is not mere with the tongue but the completeness of repentance is with good and appropriate actions.

All virtues are done with a desire to complete the repentance as all are done to draw one near God. Praying is also a means of repentance and with it we endeavor nearness to God. It is for this that God created the spirit in humans and named it soul as its real comfort is affirmation with God and His love and His obedience and that’s why it was named nafus (in Arabic diction nafus means the image of the same thing and hence it is destined to unite with God. To have connection of heart with God is like a tree in the garden which is steadfastly embedded in the earth.

This is what is called heaven of a man. Like a tree that sucks in water from earth and draws water inwards from earth and through it casts out its poisonous fumes, the heart of a human is just like that he sucks in love of God by drawing water and by ousting poisonous substances and gets flourished and with great ease it throws out such hazardous substances and in God it grows and from Him it flourishes and gets its power and spreads and shows its very beautiful greenery and bears good fruits.

But he who is not rooted in God he cannot draw and suck nourishing water and hence gets dried up eventually and at last drops its leaves and gets dried up and what is left are only ill shaped branches. The dryness of sin is created because of losing contact and hence its cure lies in straight and consistent contact. The law of nature stands witness to it.

GodAllahYHWH hints towards it when He says in The Holy Quran: Chapter 89: Al-Fajr:
[89:28] O, thou soul at peace!
[89:29] Return to thy Lord, thou well-pleased with Him and He well-pleased with thee.
[89:30] So enter thou among My chosen servants,
[89:31] And enter thou My Garden.

Unquote

Thanks

The first response in #20 is very different than Catholic doctrine as it specificially rules out sacrifice. Here is my response to that message:

That is an excellent description of the difference between Islam and Christianity.

Let me give you an example. If your child Paarsurrey, had committed a fault and because of that fault, he was condemned to suffering and ultimate death, would you love your son enough to take his place and suffer in his place to save his life?

Apparently, the Quran would forbid this, since no one is to suffer or sacrifice themselves for the another person’s sins, or to put it in Christian speak, for the love of another.

On the other hand, God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. (John 3:16)

And that is the difference. God is our Dearly Beloved Father and He does not wish that any of us should perish. So He sent His only Son to give us an example of self sacrifice and love that we might be saved.

Thank you for providing an excellent point of comparison. What is the second question?

This part of the response, as it deals with love and repentance and UNION with God is very close to the Catholic teaching. However, the lack of understanding of the role of suffering in our life is eminently clear. It remains a great difference between the two faiths.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

You are in the same place where I am.

Not really. I know, when I go to confession, that I’ve been forgiven. Do you know when you’ve been forgiven?

Our deeds are counted. No one can be guaranteed to be saved unless and until our deeds are going along with the will of God. We get the result of our deeds in the afterlife. Then only we will know whether we are saved or not. Now, don’t say again that we are saved, but our deeds are counted.

When did I say that?

It is like saying you passed the test, while you are still IN the test. That is self contradicting.

I didn’t say it so I didn’t contradict myself. You are confusing the Protestant doctrines of faith alone and Once Saved Always Saved, which contradict Scripture, with the Catholic Teachings of Faith and Works and Perseverance to the end which are taught in Scripture.

James 2
18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.

Matthew 10

22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

By the way, why do you refer KJV, that’s a protestent version of Bible, Isn’t it?

Yes and yes. I use the KJV whenever I am discussing doctrine with a Protestant since Catholic doctrine can be proven from any Bible which is translated correctly. Although the KJV used to contain many errors, they have since been corrected.

Do you accept that version?

I do today.

Thanks. Hope you will not hang on to that/any Quranic verse with plain reading and self interpretation anymore, since you don’t do that with Bible verses.

I don’t go by my understanding of the Quran. I go by what Muslims have told me. Muslims have tried to convert me before. Especially when I was atheist. At that time, more than one said that the Quran was plain and simple. See this website:

Quran is kitaab-e-mubeen i.e. a book which makes things clear and manifest
" O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book, -(kitabun mubeenun) "[5:15]
http://quranicteachings.co.uk/plain.htm

It is below.

Did they repent for their sin? If they did, in what state they were then? Once they were forgiven as you said below, in what state they were then? If they were still seperated from God, with the fallen nature, what is the effect that forgiveness of God made in them?

I believe I’ve answered this series of questions before.

Please reread message #62. If any further questions, ask me again.

If they were forgiven of their sin, that sin cannot have any effect in us. If it does, then they were not forgiven.

This is real life. Not make believe. In real life, when something is broken and then fixed, it is never as good as it was before it was broken.

Lets say a rock breaks a window. We put the window back together. The next time, the window will break much more easily.

Adam and Eve sinned and their nature fell. We inherited this fallen nature. We inherited the repaired window.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I am asking, where he got the ability to misuse good and free will?

Do you understand the term “free will”?

God doesn’t sin. That doesn’t mean, God doesn’t have the ability to sin. The ABILITY/POTENTIAL is there in God too. God too have his free will to choose. God choose to be good, since God is good.

Thanks for bringing this up. This is another HUGE difference between Catholic Teaching and Muslim doctrine.

The Catholic Church teaches that God is incapable of sin because He is all good.

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. …

There you are. Free will, by defenition, GIVES ONE THE POTENTIAL TO CHOOSE between righteous and SIN, good and BAD. We have to ability to sin as much as we have ability to do good. And we, including Adam and Eve (pbut), got this potential to SIN and to do good from none other than God, as part of FREE WILL.
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#385

This is where Islam and Christianity are different. We believe in the omnipotency of God.Even if God created us for a certain purpose, God cannot be surprised by any of our acts against God, since he is omnipotent and can see the future (time is an earthly concept which doesn’t affect God). It is he who created us and gave us the free will. It is he who knows the hight of our righteousness and deepness of our wickedness more than anyone, from our pre-existence itself. But you don’t believe in his omnipotence, so do your Bible as it is mentioned,

Genesis 6:5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”

This is an excellent difference between the Christian understanding of the Word of God in the Bible and the Islamic idea of the Word of God in the Quran.

As I understand the Islamic idea of the Quran, it is an UNCREATED book. It exists in heaven beside Allah from all eternity.

However, that begs the question, if the Quran was written in heaven, why are there “Satanic verses” and “abrogated verses”? That doesn’t make sense.

The Bible is inspired by God but written by man. The man explained the fact which God inspired as best he could. The man in question is Moses. There is no error, it is simply the best way he could express the idea that men had fallen into heinous sin and God would destroy them in the flood.

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, **God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers **so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71
(Cont’d)

 

[De_Maria]

(Cont’d)

God was not supposed to be sorry, if he wasn’t loved by us, since he knows our future.

Our love for God does not control His love for us.

Matthew 5
45 That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.

Whether we are more prone or less prone is out of subject.

You say that because you don’t understand Chrsitian doctrine. It is precisely the question. That is what fallen nature means.

Were they prone to sin (more or less), are we prone to sin (more or less) is the discussion, and I say all we are including Adam and Eve (pbut).

You say? And who are you? I am comparing the erroneous doctrines of Islam to the Truth of the Catholic Church.

Were they innocent at birth, are we innocent at birth, was the discussion about and you agreed all of us are.

The discussion is about Islam’s contradictory and erroneous teachings:

1. Islam claims that no man bears another’s burdens. Yet all Muslims were kicked out of Paradise when Adam and Eve were kicked out. Contradiction.
2. Islam claims the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin teaches that all men are born with actual sin. That is an error.
3. Islam teaches that Allah made men to sin. Whereas the Catholic Church teaches that God made men to love Him and worship Him.
4. Islam has no doctrine of the expiatory nature of suffering.
5. There are many other points which I’ve made clear as we progressed.

The potential to sin and to do good is/was same all the time.

No, it wasn’t.

Are we talking about physical transgression of some virus or something? or the spiritual transgression of sin nature? It is not only the sin that will effect the children,

So you agree that the sin of the parents affects the children?

even the nighbors and others too, but also our good deeds do effect in them.

And our good deeds also? As opposed to sin, right?

That is an earthly situation, physical cause and effect.

You just described spiritual cause and effect since you mentioned a spiritual illness, sin and a spiritual good, good deeds.

But in spiritual level, our children are not responsible and punishable for our sins. They won’t be rewarded for our good deeds too. What we d

Did I say they were? No. But they are affected by our sins and by our good deeds as you agreed above.

o is out of our free will and what they do is out of their free will.

Correct.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Cont…

I was talking about the reason for our creation.

You quoted this verse from Quran.

35:8 Is he, the evil of whose deeds is made fairseeming unto him so that he deemeth it good, (other than Satan’s dupe)? Allah verily sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth whom He will; so let not thy soul expire in sighings for them. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do!

First God talking about the deeds of evil doers. Then talking about the guidence that God gives. We never gets that unless we seek that, which God says, he is aware of. If we keep on sinning,

Again, a great difference in Catholic and Islamic doctrine. In Catholic doctrine, God leads no one to damnation. If a man chooses evil, that is his own decision.

Apparently, you are comfortable with the idea that Allah leads some men to hell.

In addition, you seem comfortable with the idea of free will. That is what some Muslims teach. But not all. Did you see what inJesus wrote?

Book 46, Number 46.1.1:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu’z-Zinad from al-Araj from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Adam and Musa argued and Adam got the better of Musa. Musa rebuked Adam, 'You are Adam who led people astray and brought them out of the Garden.’ Adam said to him, ‘You are Musa to whom Allah gave knowledge of everything and whom he chose above people with His message.’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘Do you then censure me for a matter which was decreed for me before I was created?’ "

"And I free not myself (from the blame). Verily, the (human) self is inclined to evil, except when my Lord bestows His Mercy… Sura Yussef aya 53

So, did Adam exercise free will or did Allah cause him to sin? And if it was not Allah, who decreed that he should sin before he was created?

God will not appear infront of us in a fine morning and give us the guidence, but he will let us do that as much as we want. He will lead us where we want to reach. God will surly lead them to astray who want to be so and God will surely guide them who seek it, becasue God is very much aware of what we think and what we do. That is why our freewill mentioned more clearly in many other places.

Again, you confirm that God will lead the evil astray. We don’t believe that.

Do not go after plain reading and misinterpretation quoted in any anti-Islamic sites. Atleast try to have your own interpretation on it with a careful reading.

As I said, I use only what is consistent with that which has been explained to me by Muslims.

We have already seen that it is not. God didn’t create man to sin, but as one of his practice. he made us out of love too, I don’t disagree that, but I want you to know, that the free will that he gave us out of love, contains the ability to choose righteousness as well as wickedness.

Hope you can understand, Thanks.

Well, thank God! Because if you truly believe that you will see how logically Catholic doctrine follows that teaching. It is the main teaching in all of Catholicism.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Where you got this one now? Islam do allow and I do pray for all my known friends and relatives, all the muslims all over the world. But God has the right to accept and reject. I don’t pray for non-believers since I know the verse in the previous post. God will not guide anyone unless they seek it.

6 And as for those who choose protecting friends beside Him, Allah is Warden over them, and thou art in no wise a guardian over them.7 And thus We have inspired in thee a Lecture in Arabic, that thou mayst warn the mother-town and those around it, and mayst warn of a day of assembling whereof there is no doubt. A host will be in the Garden, and a host of them in the Flame. 8 Had Allah willed, He could have made them one community, but Allah bringeth whom He will into His mercy. And the wrong-doers have no friend nor helper.
42. ash-Shura: The Counsel

Surah 6:70
Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself **no protector or intercessor except God: **if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting God.
answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/understanding_the_intercession_prophet_muhammad.htm

 

[De_Maria]

You see, you assume, you are seperated from God, and go for baptism. you don’t know why and how you are seperated, but you still do baptise.

I’ve already explained how and why we are separated. Apparently you don’t understand my explanation.

If they had the potential to sin they got with the free will from God, why do you say they introduced sin, when it is just a result of the potential THEY HAD IN THEM as part of free will that God given?

A potential sin is not an actual sin.

They had many other potentials too like seeing, hearing, talking, smellig, eating, sleeping, loving and many many other things which we all do.

Very different matters. Sin is a measure of our proximity to God. The more we sin, the less we love God. The more we love God the less we sin. It is the act of will which permits God to act through us, to inspire our actions. We can’t overcome our sinfulness by our own efforts. We must acknowledge, accept and cooperate with the grace of God in order to overcome sin. In other words, God overcomes sin for us so that we can accomplish His will.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

Every act we do has its own effect. Some goes against the physical situation here on earth and some goes against the will of God, which is SIN. The physical effects here on earth can be balanced with opposite actions. SIN against God is in Spiritual level. Nothing on earth can balance that, neither baptism nor sacrifice, but if God himself forgives us what we did against him, which God offered us through true repentence.

Excellent point of departure between Catholicism and Islam.

We believe that we humans are one nature composed of both physical and spiritual components. Therefore, our spirit guides our body and directs it. It is within the spirit that we have the mind and will which decide what our physical body will do. Therefore, our spirit causes our body to sin and can also cause our body to repent. But we don’t look at it as a duality. We have one human nature composed of spirit and flesh.
CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

Now, if we do anything against someone or something here on earth, we should balance it with the opposite actions. Like, if we steal something of a person, we should return it and ask his forgivness, because we hurted him physically and mentally.

Again, a difference. We believe if we hurt someone whom God loves, we sin. Since God loves all people, whenever we hurt another person, we sin. Therefore we must not only ask him forgiveness but God’s forgiveness also.

So the opposite action can only be fulfilled by his physical and mental satisfaction. Sometimes we can’t repalce the loss we made to someone (like murder), but we can still ask the forgiveness of his relatives. If they do forgive, the opposite action here on earth is been fulfilled but the physical loss will exist. That loss will go along with us to the court of God where God will judge us wheather to die in hell or to get forgiven according to our charity, righeous deeds and repentence after the sin.

Whereas, if we ask forgiveness to God and to all concerned, we expect to enter heaven after we have paid our sin by suffering sufficiently on this earth and if necessary in Purgatory.

[quotre]For the sins that we do against God (including the unreplacable losses we did here on earth), we need forgiveness of God. What God demands us for the forgiveness is our true, honest repentence and the word to fulfill his law untill death. (Read Ezekiel 18. In Quran, there are lots of references to the same) Here comes the question of sacrifice. Sacrifice is a physical action that can balance only the physical sufferings of someone or something. In a spiritual level, we can’t offer blood or something to God, and doesn’t demand it. We do it for people that we sinned because, they suffered because of us. But, none our deeds or sin can make God suffer or can negate the Holyness of God. Since the sin against God is spiritual, god too demands us the spiritual sacrifice -Repentence; not blood or baptism.

Baptism is not a sacrifice. It is a covenant and a Sacrament indicating we are ready to live God’s life of grace. I am very happy that you and ParrSurrey have agreed in this denial of the efficacy of sacrifice. It is precisely sacrifice that God has taught us results from God. Our faith teaches us that God, in the person of Jesus, sacrificed Himself for us and we in turn sacrifice ourselves to Him:

ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=sacrifice+ourselves&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Exactly, you are right. That is the ability exists in us too with the free will,

Not the ability. The potential.

not the assumed fallen nature/original sin. They were their own with their deeds and we are our own with our deeds.

Cont…

The result of the Original Sin is our fallen nature which makes our potential to sin even greater. Again, life teaches a lesson here. Before a man tastes a drug, like cocaine, he has the potential to taste the drug. But after he tastes the drug like cocaine, his potential to taste it again is much greater.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Cont…
I didn’t say God created us ONLY to SIN.

I didn’t say that you did.

But, he created us with the ability to sin also which I am trying to imply in every posts.

Not only that, but you and every Muslim I’ve ever talked to say that Allah created man so that man would sin. That is the difference between Islam and Catholicism.

God created man to worship Him and not to sin. Man decided to sin on his own.

Allah created man to sin so that He could guide Him where He wanted to. He created the evil for hell and the good for heaven.

Is that correct or not?

May be I failed to express that perfectly, but here is what I said. Read it carefully.

God created Adam with the potential to sin. If God doesn’t wanted sin ever to happen, ever to exist, why he made man to be able to sin? Becasue he wanted us to sin. He wanted to know, how many of us repent from our sin and follow his guidence.

God created Adam with the potential to sin.

This is how God created us, with the potential to love and sin as you have already agreed.

Here’s the difference. Allah intended for man to sin so He created man with the potential to sin or more specifically with the ability to sin perhaps even the desire to sin.

On the other hand, God made man for Himself. He did not create man to sin. He created man to love and worship Hiim. But love can’t be coerced. So God gave man free will so that man might freely choose to love Him.

It is a matter of intent. God did not intend for man to sin. Allah did.

If God doesn’t wanted sin ever to happen, ever to exist, why he made man to be able to sin?

Because He wanted man to freely choose NOT to sin.

This is the question I made, in order to make you understand that why we do sin. You were saying, God created us just out of Love and we to love him. And I wanted to know, if that was the case why he did give us the potential to sin. And you have already agreed above that, In order for Adam and Eve to love God freely, Adam and Eve had to have the right to say no to God. Which I said below as, As God wanted us to love him, he also wanted us to sin out of our free will, if and when we choose to do so.

NO! God does not want us to sin, ever.

Becasue he wanted us to sin. He wanted to know, how many of us repent from our sin and follow his guidence.

God wanted to know,

God is omniscient. He knows how many will sin.

how many of us do love him out of free will and how many of us do sin out of free will.

I think you still have the problem with plain reading.

No. The problem is with Islamic doctrine. It makes no sense that a perfect being who loves perfectly should create someone to sin.

It makes no sense that this perfect being who is all good should lead anyone to hell.

I don’t know what it has to do with the Original Sin. We all do pray for others. It is not our responsibility but righeousness.

I’ve addressed the question elsewhere.

No. You keep on fail to understand. IN THAT PERFECTION THAT SAID JUST ABOVE, GOD ALSO GAVE US THE ABILITY TO SIN. If that ability is imperfection, then you are contradicting yourself. It is not imperfection but the perfection of free will.

It is Islam which contradicts itself as I have plainly shown.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Khalfan]

Knowing someone is simply an example of a type of language given in the Bible.

I’m explaining this by way of analogy

And what does that analogy has anything to do with sin? As I have already said, ‘knew’ doesn’t mean ‘sinned’. Does it?

 

[De_Maria]

Cont…

See, this is where you wanted to sum-up the effect of original Sin. The cross event. Did Jesus (pbuh) do it willingly

Yes.

John 10
17 Therefore doth the Father love me: because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. 18 No man taketh it away from me: but I lay it down of myself, and I have power to lay it down: and I have power to take it up again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

even if he was dead on the cross? He was praying to be saved from the cross.]/quote]

No, he wasn’t. He was revealing who He was. Did you not know that the words, " My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me " are the words of Psalm 21 which prophesy the passion of the Suffering Servant, the Messiah?

Psalms 21
2 O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins.

That is not the issue here.

The issue is that you know little of Christian doctrine and what you think you know is in error.

Here the issue is three points.

1. Can anyone take the burden/punishment/payment/atonement for the sin of others?

Yes. It is in fact, God’s will that we help each other and pray for one another.

According to Ezekiel 18, it cannot

Ezekiel 18 does not address this issue. Ezekiel says that God will not punish a son for a father’s sins nor a father for a son’s sins. It does not say that one may not take another’s burdens willingly. The issue is not addressed. But it is addressed in many other parts of the Bible.

Matthew 22
39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

In fact, life should teach you that we are born to take each other’s burdens. Our parents take our burdens until we are old enough to take them on ourselves. We take our children’s burdens until they are old enough. It is the way of the world. It is called love.

and what God demands us to get forgiven is our repentence, not blood of anyone.

God loves us and calls us to love one another. And by His own example He shows us that:

John 15

13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

1. Did anyone ever know about the original Sin concept till development of christianity?

Did anyone ever know about eternal Quran until the advent of Islam?

None of the jews ever known about such thing.

That is true. The ancient Jews were more concerned with survival than with Theology. How else can you explain that they forged a golden calf to worship after they had seen the miracles which God produced through Moses?

1. What is Original Sin then?

.
398 In that sin man *preferred *himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.279
399 Scripture portrays the tragic consequences of this first disobedience. Adam and Eve immediately lose the grace of original holiness.280 They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image - that of a God jealous of his prerogatives.281
400 The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination.282 Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man.283 Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”.284 Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”,285 for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.286
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#389
cont’d