Islam

[SimonArizona]

** I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men**. -1Ti 2:1

 

[SimonArizona]

**Zec 7:10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart. **

**Jer 7:6 Oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood **

 

[dolphinlove]

** Nickname, actually, in Islam there is absolutely no permission to tell a lie even before a tyrant king. But i would feel that muslims should try to use some kind of deciet in dealing with the christians as their religion is absolutely nil. It is not any religion at all. It has no base. It is standing on sand. Everything is a supposition, a myth. Nothing is real.

In such circumstances, it would be appropriate for any one to steer clear of the catholics. Already some one has accused me of lying. When I asked for reference / proof, that person is dumb and quiet. So you can see who is lying. It is some one who is a christain but says he is not Catholic (angelos).**

rant rant rant.
You are a liar!
You are the one that runs for the hills when asked for reference or proof. You are the one that comes on here and lies.
You contradict yourself all the time, do i need to go on with anymore accusations.
You constantly shoot yourself in the foot, your religion is false.
So stop accusing and lying about my dear Christian friends on here.
TRY and answer some of the questions put before you for a change.

 

[Nickkname]

For anyone who wants to know what “holy hypocrisy” is and why Muslims use it, here ya go:

**Question: **Are Muslims permitted to lie?

**Summary Answer: **Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should be truthful to each other.

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. One of those circumstances is to gain the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

The Qur’an: Sura (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie.

Sura (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to “guard themselves.”

Sura (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must “hide his faith” among those who are not believers.

Sura (2:225) - “Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts”

Sura (66:2) - “Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths”

Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be “compelled” to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Read the rest here

 

[SimonArizona]

For example, if I lived in NAZI Germany, and was hiding a non-white family in my house and the Germans asked me if I know where any of them are, I would say no.

Because then it’s not a lie, it is doing a truth. It is not a lie intended to harm but to do good.

 

[RobHom]

** Nickname, actually, in Islam there is absolutely no permission to tell a lie even before a tyrant king. But i would feel that muslims should try to use some kind of deciet in dealing with the christians as their religion is absolutely nil. It is not any religion at all. It has no base. It is standing on sand. Everything is a supposition, a myth. Nothing is real.**

That statement above shows you for the “deceiver” that you really are. If Christianity is “nil”, then why is Christ and so many others named within your koran? And you are wrong as to your own beliefs…because in the koran it is implicity spelled out that it is in fact right and proper for a muslim to lie and deceive anyone not a muslim…but not another muslim. Speaking of “suppositions” and “myths”…that is precisely what the non-muslim people of the world call islam. Islam is not a religion, it is a political system posing as a religion, and not one of “peace” in any way shape or form. You delude yourself.

In such circumstances, it would be appropriate for any one to steer clear of the catholics. Already some one has accused me of lying. When I asked for reference / proof, that person is dumb and quiet. So you can see who is lying. It is some one who is a christain but says he is not Catholic (angelos).

In all cases and circumstances it would be best to steer clear of muslims. When they are asked for references and proofs, and are shown the fallacy of their statements…they go into immediate denial about reality and what has been done. Its easy to spot the liars…

Planten…people who live in glass houses should not throw rocks. And lest you be confused…people who do as you do, do not do muslims any favors. In fact you, by your manners and deceitfulness do more damage to islam than anything else.

 

[Nickkname]

For example, if I lived in NAZI Germany, and was hidding a non-white family in my house and the Germans asked me if I know where any of them are, I would say no.

Because then it’s not a lie, it is doing a truth. It is not a lie intended to harm but to do good.

…This is the first time I’ve ever seen a fallacy and a lie in the same post on the Internet.

I love how you use two extremes in your argument: “Nazis” and “non-white family”. Yes, your argument seems soooooooo compelling because it reminds me of the Holocaust and oh my gosh it was so important to hide from the Nazis, huh? So using this example is just the perfect way to teach lying is okay in certain situations, huh?

But wait, no it’s not. Maybe in Islamic law it’s okay, but not in Divine Law. According to God’s Law, a lie is a lie is a lie, and every lie is evil in itself; you cannot do evil to bring good; the ends do not justify the means.

But you know what I would have done in the example you gave? By the grace of God I would tell the Nazis I was hiding a family in my house and ask them to take me instead and spare the family.

 

[SimonArizona]

…This is the first time I’ve ever seen a fallacy and a lie in the same post on the Internet.

I love how you use two extremes in your argument: “Nazis” and “non-white family”. Yes, your argument seems soooooooo compelling because it reminds me of the Holocaust and oh my gosh it was so important to hide from the Nazis, huh? So using this example is just the perfect way to teach lying is okay in certain situations, huh?

But wait, no it’s not. Maybe in Islamic law it’s okay, but not in Divine Law. According to God’s Law, a lie is a lie is a lie, and every lie is evil in itself; you cannot do evil to bring good; the ends do not justify the means.

But you know what I would have done in the example you gave? By the grace of God I would tell the Nazis I was hiding a family in my house and ask them to take me instead and spare the family.

You my brother, why are you driven by a spirit of contention? Are you a patriot? If you were taken in war and forced to tell the enemy where your comrades are, would you? I would not. I do not wish to teach lying is ok, but in this case of saving human life, it is not an evil lie, it is a lie to do right, to do what is good. Do you speak for God? Has He endowed upon you His secrets?

The NAZI’s would have taken you, your family, and the hiding family.

peace be unto you, man with quarreling spirit.

 

[planten]

Planten…people who live in glass houses should not throw rocks. And lest you be confused…people who do as you do, do not do muslims any favors. In fact you, by your manners and deceitfulness do more damage to islam than anything else.

**** RobHom, I am not living in glass house. I never threw the first stone. It was always done by the Catholic namesake christians. I cannot say that they are Catholic because angelos denied that he was a Catholic.

There has been constant abuse from a few supposed christians here. I replied in same manner. So I am being blamed. Is it not being clever? Please don’t be clever and do not see things with one blind eye.

Do not use the good words of the Quran for yourself now. You people do not deserve that any more because of your abuse of our religion, it is not fair that you should enjoy any benefit from the Quran. In any case you people do not believe in the Quran. So why are you running to Quran for any support to your fake religion?****

 

[planten]

**(name removed by moderator), you saw and you saw with prejudice. There were one or two (Perhaps more) here who were openly abusing accusing Islam… I retaliated. You know it. I did not start that foolish process. But you know it all and now you are pretending and accusing me too. Go ahead…

I feel that I learnt a good tool for retaliating to the worst people (Kafirs) by showing them the basis of their religion from the bible.
**

 

[cathopologist]

Instead of accusing Angelos and R_not of lying, why don’t you define what taqiyya and kitman means and how do Muslims apply it daily, or in your case, on internet forums?

planten, answer the question please. Thank you.

 

[planten]

planten, answer the question please. Thank you.

**Please understand that there is no Kitman or Taqiyya in Islam. There is a minority sect (Shia) who do support such ideas. But they also do not support it openly. So, end result is there is no kitman or taqiyya.

Would you now close this chapter or go on repeating? You should not bring it up to me again. I have given my reply.**

 

[brownjt]

** brownjt, Th christian faith is very weak in the matters of law and guidance. The book (bible NT) is quiet on many matters. It does not specifically guide the followers in the matters of marriage or divorce or eating… or salvation or Compulsion. Nothing is there in bible.

But Quran is specific. It says “There is no Compulsion in religion” Verse 2:255.
Quran says that any one who is a peaceful Jew or christian or person of any other faith who believes in Allah and the accounatability of the last day, that person will have nothing to fear (about the future) and he/she will not be sorry for anything of past. Verse 2:62.

That is a clear statement that Peaceful persons of any faith can live happily within Islamic environment. They need not convert.

The present day progress and beauty of the western world is because they have distanced themselves from Christianity and they have adopted good laws by consultation/ legislation. The sceintists and lawyers did not tke / utilise anything from the bible NT.
But bible Nt is also useful.**

That’s just not true. The NT is very very specific on things like that - yes but God gave Man a free will. Our secular problems come from our sinful nature and the NT especially covers it. Written long time ago it shows that people and God never change. Read the NT in a academic sense and learn what western culture should be based and in alot of ways is…Read the Beatitudes and reflect on them. Whether you are christian or not, Jesus holds the keys to the kingdom for God. My relatives are very spiritual and gentle and holy. Look to the good things that the Quran and NT. Theologically, do a study of the NT and see why the Jews killed Christ - he was viewed as a threat. His peaceful message and death is a inspiration to all. Imagine if your mother had to witness this!

 

[cathopologist]

**Please understand that there is no Kitman or Taqiyya in Islam. There is a minority sect (Shia) who do support such ideas. But they also do not support it openly. So, end result is there is no kitman or taqiyya.

Would you now close this chapter or go on repeating? You should not bring it up to me again. I have given my reply.**

The Shia’ may have came up with this doctrine, but it does not mean the end of the story. Many Muslims, including Sunni’s have adopted taqiyya and kitman to their advantages. Denying there is no practice to this is itself taqiyya.

Besides, you consider youself a Muslim when others here think you’re heretical. Shia’ or Druze or Ahmadiyya, Muslims do condone the fine art of lying in the most reticent manner.

 

[planten]

That’s just not true. The NT is very very specific on things like that - yes but God gave Man a free will. Our secular problems come from our sinful nature and the NT especially covers it. Written long time ago it shows that people and God never change. Read the NT in a academic sense and learn what western culture should be based and in alot of ways is…Read the Beatitudes and reflect on them. Whether you are christian or not, Jesus holds the keys to the kingdom for God. My relatives are very spiritual and gentle and holy. Look to the good things that the Quran and NT. Theologically, do a study of the NT and see why the Jews killed Christ - he was viewed as a threat. His peaceful message and death is a inspiration to all. Imagine if your mother had to witness this!

Thanks for your justified balanced peaceful post. I have nothing against your Jesus or Mary or YOUR faith.

 

[cathopologist]

That’s just not true. The NT is very very specific on things like that - yes but God gave Man a free will. Our secular problems come from our sinful nature and the NT especially covers it. Written long time ago it shows that people and God never change. Read the NT in a academic sense and learn what western culture should be based and in alot of ways is…Read the Beatitudes and reflect on them. Whether you are christian or not, Jesus holds the keys to the kingdom for God. My relatives are very spiritual and gentle and holy. Look to the good things that the Quran and NT. Theologically, do a study of the NT and see why the Jews killed Christ - he was viewed as a threat. His peaceful message and death is a inspiration to all. Imagine if your mother had to witness this!

You are truly a very contradictory person. You know what Christians believe in, yet you conjure images of paganism in your mind. It’s like suddenly, Beelzebub has left the building for just a few seconds.

 

[R_not]

Dear planten is adding new lies to his posts. There IS compulsion in Islam since 2:256 was ABROGATED with 9:5 and 29! If one contends that there was no abrogation for verse 2:256, one must also conclude that the Koran has contradictory statements about the notion of compulsion or tolerance.

Besides, 2:62 does not say that those non-Muslims will be exempt from the Islamic invasions and the payment of jizyah for humiliation. According to 9:29, which belongs to a later date than the whole Surah 2, ALL non-Muslims that do not turn to Islam must be fought and defeated for humiliation.

Dear planten’s new Koran version probably lacks Surah 9!

Oh, he probably has read it - over and over again - but it is not useful to write that when practicing da’wa. It wouldn’t benefit his cause of misleading everyone.

 

[Angelos]

**1. angelos, you have been told that no verse of the Quran is abrogated. But it is possible that the Quran may have abrogated some of your faulty love verses of the bible.
2. The verse 9:5 had been explained to you that it was during war when makkah was liberated. The Makkans had persecuted and attacked the muslims for about 18 years mercilessly, Those pagans were allowed to go away within four months from the city. That was a lenient view. They had been liable to be killed for their war efforts.

Do not just read 9:5. Read the 9:6, 7, 8 too.

1. The case of 9:29 is same. That was about the false people of the book who never followed their books and they were the allies of the pagans. You see, shame on the people of the books becoming allies of the pagans. Then they deserved the same punishment as for the pagans. Why are you complaining?

The verse 2:62 allows people of all faiths to live happily, peacefully amongst the Muslims and they lived like that for many years.

But you do not have any law or any good verse in the bible to show that your religion is a peaceful religion and it allows the people of other faith any kind of peace… Have you any such verse in bible? Surely not. **

Your response is not honest as usual.

1) Muslims (true Muslims I mean, not the followers of an innovated heresy) always teach that some Koran verses were replaced with others. According to the verses in the Islamic scripture, Allah supposedly changes His verses and considers these alterations a sign of His omnipotence. (Surah 2:106)

2) I have explained the implications of that verse in its entirety for so many times. It seems that you suffer from short memory. The fact is 9:5 COMMANDS Muslims to force Meccan pagans to conversion, which absolutely betrays your so-called Islamic tolerance (no compulsion in religion!) stated in 2:256. According to your interpretation, there IS compulsion in Islam sometimes (at the time of war, for instance) .

3) This is an open lie. You are pathetically distorting your scripture and ignoring some parts of it while trying to save faces. Surah 9:29 commands Muslims to fight EVERYONE that does not turn to Islam. Let me quote the verse for the 10th time:

Surah 9:29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

How is it possible for non-Muslims to become Muslims and remain non-Muslims at the same time? How is it possible for non-Muslims to prohibit what Mohammad prohibits before they believe him to be a true prophet? Dear planten, you are talking through your hat.

2:62 does not guarantee that those non-Muslims will never be forced to pay jizyah! Surah 9 is of the latest period of the Koran; therefore, its verses supersede those of Surah 2!

You can never find in the New Testament a commandment to fight all non-Christians for their humiliation. Actually, neither the Old nor the New Testament clings to the notion of primary and true religion unlike your scripture.

 

[R_not]

**Please understand that there is no Kitman or Taqiyya in Islam. There is a minority sect (Shia) who do support such ideas. But they also do not support it openly. So, end result is there is no kitman or taqiyya.

Would you now close this chapter or go on repeating? You should not bring it up to me again. I have given my reply.**

Well, actually deception is sanctioned in the koran and it is what muslims always do - blame the other sect for doing it and not them! Which is deception in itself! Whatever label, or name, you want to put on your deception - it is still deception.

You are in fact practicing it quite often when you deny that there is indeed compulsion in religion. You practice it when you write the abrogated surahs while disregarding that you know that they were replaced by the surahs to kill us, or subjugate us, if we do not convert to islam.

And as for stopping this accusation - how often have you been told about Christianity and you still bring up the same, old questions?!?!?! It is getting old.

taqiyya (pronounced tark-e-ya) : precautionary dissimulation or deception and keeping one’s convictions secret and a synonymous term, kitman: mental reservation and dissimulation or concealment of malevolent intentions…

It was developed by the shia - but the sunni do indeed practice these two things.

**Sunni Moriscos attended mass and returned home to wash their hands of the ‘holy water’. In operational terms, taqiyya and kitman allowed the ‘mujahadeen ’ to assume whatever identity was necessary to fulfill their mission; they had doctrinal and theological and later jurisprudential sanction to pretend to be Jews or Christians to gain access to Christian and Jewish targets: ‘the mujahadeen can take the shape of the enemy’.

Taqiyya is common to both Shiite and Sunni Muslim discourse and has significant implications for understanding Islamic fundamentalism and terrorist operations. The theory and practice of counter terrorism would be counter productive, indeed pointless, and even harmful, without reference to taqiyya and kitman and the crucial role of deception ranging from Islamic jurisprudence to Al Qaeda training manuals, which carry detailed instructions on the use of deception by terrorists in Western target countries.

According to Christian ethics lying is a sin; In Islamic jurisprudence and theology, the use of taqiyya against the unbelievers is regarded as a virtue and a religious duty.

**

taqiyya and kithman

 

[Angelos]

**
In such circumstances, it would be appropriate for any one to steer clear of the catholics. Already some one has accused me of lying. When I asked for reference / proof, that person is dumb and quiet.** So you can see who is lying. It is some one who is a christain but says he is not Catholic (angelos).

Still telling lies? You must have a close relation with the father of lies. Very saddening indeed.

I have already proven you a liar. You somehow deny this fact and consider me dumb and quiet despite my response. People can read and see, thank God.

Go and read my post #163