Jehovah's witnesses still dont have an accurate translation?

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Dismissing a person’s understanding of Bible truth because he doesn’t hold a high enough degree from the right theological school is what is not right.

YHWH hasn’t made a habit of working through those with the highest degrees, the highest theological training, etc…

Jesus was belittled as only the “carpenter’s son”. The apostles were described by critics as “being unlettered”.

The only person who was well trained was the Apostle Paul, who referred to that training as “garbage” or “refuse”.

The point here is to keep an open mind and open ears… truthful information does actually flow from people without Ph.D’s and theological degrees.
 
Interesting enough, no response and strange come back, huh? I was actually commenting that Steve had a degree and I usually find it strange since most JWs don’t have higher education but because Steve does, I gave him a compliment… or at least I tried to make it a compliment with good intentions

Anyway…

Jaypeeto, b_justb, Ravyn, since you were JWs before, could you answer the last question I posted? (post #378)
 
Yessisan, I think Bible Steve made that comment to clarify something I posted earlier, about disagreeing that knowledge is the key…

I could be wrong though, and I hope Bible Steve knows you meant what you said to have no nefarious intentions, but to offer a very objective and factual
statement.

Bible Steve, she did say you love God, so I think we all can agree she was not trying to make your education a negative in any way.
 
Of course truth can and does flow from people without doctorates.
The thing is, Biblical Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic are not languages commonly known to people WITHOUT years of professional study in those ancient languages. Such years of study to become proficient in those languages usually results in the awarding of degrees, it’s just the way it is.

St. Paul was using hyperbole when he said he counted all his training “refuse” compared to the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ. Surely he did NOT regard as garbage his great learning in the Old Testament scriptures. They helped him make sense out of the New Covenant inaugurated by Jesus.

Mormon scholars HAVE degrees, and THEY STILL get
the Gospel wrong.

The point is that the JWs and the Mormons today claim to be the restoration of apostolic and subapostolic Christianity, the restored
Christian Church. Yet, no matter how far back you go in Christian history, you can’t find ANY group or ANY PERSON who holds to the basic fundamental beliefs of either the Jehovah’s Witnesses OR the Mormons. So where did they all go all of a sudden? Were they all abducted by UFOs in 120 A.D. leaving behind no trace whatsoever of their ever having even existed???

Such a thing is, of course, impossible,
yet JW leaders and Mormon leaders still boldly proclaim that the empire-wide Early Christian apostolic Church taught THEIR interpretations and doctrines, when they clearly did not.

The earliest records of the Chrstian Church, from the Didache and pope Clement of Rome in the First Century, to Justin Martyr and Irenaeus in the 2nd century etc, all bear witness to the basic doctrinal Catholicism of the early church. So when did all the ancient JWs and ancient Mormons commit their churchwide apostasy???

When, in a religious organization, people start teaching contradictory doctrines, they break away into several splinter groups, the whole organization worldwide doesn’t apostasize in the exact same doctrinal system direction, yet the entire early Church became Catholic in it’s beliefs on the deity of Christ, the bodily (glorified) resurrection of Jesus, the reality of eternal Hell,
the real presence of Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity, in Holy Communion which was celebrated EVERY Sunday throughout the whole church, not just once a year on Nisan 14, etc etc etc, and all this BEFORE the Church was even legalized, yes way BEFORE King Constantine was ever even BORN !!!

THIS KIND of apostasy just does not happen, especially in
the pre-technological age.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
Maybe we need some clarification on how JWs define apostacy and the different kinds, if any…
 
Equally importantly, there is not a jot nor a tittle of evidence
in support of a churchwide apostasy in the early Church.

There were groups that broke OFF from the catholic church,
like the Ebionites and several others, but even none of THOSE groups resemble the Mormons or JWs doctrinally.

Irenaeus wrote a monumental work AGAINST THE HERESIES.
He was a Catholic Bishop. He wrote against every known heresy that had broken away from the Church. Most of them were what we’d call Gnostic groups, none of them doctrinally resemble
JWs or Mormons. So where did all the JWs and Mormons GO
all of a sudden ???

PLUS, a churchwide apostasy into basic Catholic beliefs would have resulted in empire wide rioting in the early church between the ancient JWs (or Mormons if you prefer) and those who were
“apostasizing into Catholicism,” and there would be records of this conflict, yet there is NOTHING. The silence is DEAFENING.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
yessisan said:
Interesting enough, no response and strange come back, huh? I was actually commenting that Steve had a degree and I usually find it strange since most JWs don’t have higher education but because Steve does, I gave him a compliment… or at least I tried to make it a compliment with good intentions
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Yessian, the comment about not listening to those without degrees was not in reference to your comment…

Part of the problem here is that you’ve requested I not comment on your posts. And I have adhered to that request for many months…

Earlier in this post, I pointed out a very good book by Jason Debuhn… it is an excellent book and is well received by many students of the Bible… who are not JW’s… He’s done a wonderful job of analyzing bias that has entered into the Bible from the various translators… He has criticism for all the translations, including the NWT… An earlier (ex-JW) poster dismissed his book because they felt he didn’t have the right kind of Ph.D to discuss the topic in the book… I was simply responding to that comment by pointing out that Jesus, his apostles, and disciples were similarly dismissed by “learned” folks who felt their lack of theological degrees invalidated the information…

Once again, I appreciate your compliment and I’m sorry for the confusion here…

I will now go back to not commenting on your posts…

Thank-you…
 
BibleSteve said:
Yessian, the comment about not listening to those without degrees was not in reference to your comment…

Part of the problem here is that you’ve requested I not comment on your posts. And I have adhered to that request for many months…

Earlier in this post, I pointed out a very good book by Jason Debuhn… it is an excellent book and is well received by many students of the Bible… who are not JW’s… He’s done a wonderful job of analyzing bias that has entered into the Bible from the various translators… He has criticism for all the translations, including the NWT… An earlier (ex-JW) poster dismissed his book because they felt he didn’t have the right kind of Ph.D to discuss the topic in the book… I was simply responding to that comment by pointing out that Jesus, his apostles, and disciples were similarly dismissed by “learned” folks who felt their lack of theological degrees invalidated the information…

Once again, I appreciate your compliment and I’m sorry for the confusion here…

I will now go back to not commenting on your posts…

Thank-you…
Click to expand...
Now that you aren’t against me and now that you know not to use certain info to get back at me, I will gladly accept comments from you. And thanks for adhering to my request from before.

Oh, and sorry I misunderstood about where your comment was directed… Since I was the last one who touched on education, I thought it was directed at me.
 
…no matter how far back you go in Christian history, you can’t find ANY group or ANY PERSON who holds to the basic fundamental beliefs of …the Jehovah’s Witnesses
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I would disagree with this statement… from the time the “Trinity” doctrine was established down to today, there has been a steady flow of millions upon millions of people who didn’t agree with the doctrine… believing Jehovah to be the only true and Almighty God, with Jesus being His Son…

In all honesty, this has been a ongoing disagreement about 2,000 years.

I would say the “basic fundamental belief” of JW’s is that the Trinity doctrine isn’t correct…

As for the other understandings of JW"s… .Dan 12:3, 4 indicates that true knowledge would arise in the last days…
 
yessisan said:
Anyway…

Jaypeeto, b_justb, Ravyn, since you were JWs before, could you answer the last question I posted? (post #378)
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JWs consider someone who has made the committment of baptism as being held to greater responsibility than someone who was not. You are technically still an unbeliever to them and therefore still have the possibility of being converted. Someone who was baptized and leaves is “worse than an unbeliever”, an apostate.
You will not be judged until the harvest is done. But once you make the decision to be a JW, you can never leave in one piece.
 
Hellisreal said:
Maybe we need some clarification on how JWs define apostacy and the different kinds, if any…
Click to expand...
an apostate to a JW is any one who once had the ‘truth’ and decided willfully to leave it and now teaches against what they once believed.

The Catholic Church and other religions fulfill this description to JWs in a large way, but individuals like myself fit the description if we in anyway disagree with the Watchtower Organization when we leave and talk about it to others. The only place for a former (X) JW to be, according to JWs is to be in a state of shame and repentful and silent. Obviously, not many who leave are of that mindset, so most who leave are classified as apostate. And as in the case of Ray Franz, the nephew of the former President Fred Franz, ANY talk, even casual talk over lunch with a business associate will be called ‘apostasy’ and the ax will fall.
 
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
an apostate to a JW is any one who once had the ‘truth’ and decided willfully to leave it and now teaches against what they once believed.

The Catholic Church and other religions fulfill this description to JWs in a large way, but individuals like myself fit the description if we in anyway disagree with the Watchtower Organization when we leave and talk about it to others. The only place for a former (X) JW to be, according to JWs is to be in a state of shame and repentful and silent. Obviously, not many who leave are of that mindset, so most who leave are classified as apostate. And as in the case of Ray Franz, the nephew of the former President Fred Franz, ANY talk, even casual talk over lunch with a business associate will be called ‘apostasy’ and the ax will fall.
Click to expand...
also, many who are in the process of leaving who make it known that they are ‘discontent’ are even setup and framed so to speak by ‘plants’–elders or elders wives who are told to start a conversation against the Watchtower and see if the person takes the bait. I have known many, many who have been ‘caught in apostasy’ by this method.
 
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
JWs consider someone who has made the committment of baptism as being held to greater responsibility than someone who was not. You are technically still an unbeliever to them and therefore still have the possibility of being converted. Someone who was baptized and leaves is “worse than an unbeliever”, an apostate.
You will not be judged until the harvest is done. But once you make the decision to be a JW, you can never leave in one piece.
Click to expand...
THat’s what I already knew but I thought maybe there was something else… I guess the shunning practice is just specifically for the baptized.

I just don’t get it, a DF’d or disassociated JW is the same as an unbelieveer, but I guess it would be a bit of the same as in the CC. When a Catholic marries outside the CC, that marriage isn’t valid, therefore, the Catholic cannot receive Communion, and when a non-catholic marries outside of the CC, that marriage is pressumed valid but because this person isn’t Catholic, he/she cannot receive Communion… 🤷
 
As for the other understandings of JW"s… .Dan 12:3, 4 indicates that true knowledge would arise in the last days…

This is B.S. I’m sorry, but it is.
Daniel cannot nullify Christ’s promise that he would be with his church from the Resurrection right down to the end of the world.
Not let the true faith be extinguished for 1874 years until a false prophet named Russell came along.

What do you think the apostles did for 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years all over the ancient world when they were establishing congregations, appointing pastors to succeed them, and preaching hundreds if not thousands of sermons on the True Faith? All of the early church fathers taught directly by the apostles or by the men appointed by them, believed that Jesus was Jehovah God the Son of God the Father. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Ignatius of Antioch (even earlier than Justin), Tertullian, I could go on and on. All over the ancient church, and there was no controversy over what THEY taught in the church. none.
It was only when Arius, a Catholic Priest of Alexandria Egypt, arose in 317 A.D. and claimed that Jesus’s godhood wasn’t full, equal godhood in the same nature as the father, that the big controversy began. He, like later Arian influenced philosophers, introduced the notion that while Jesus was to be fully worshiped, his nature was not 100% deity, that he was a totally separate entity from the Father and just a tad lower than the Father.
Well, just a tad isn’t good enough. That’s when the controversy started. And Arius, by the way, never denied that the Holy Spirit was a Person. NOBODY in the early church EVER believed that the Holy Spirit was a mere divine FORCE, not even the Arians.

As for Arius, he was only formally guilty of heresy AFTER the Council of Nicea DEFINED solemnly, assembled in the power of the holy Spirit as a Christian council, that Jesus and the Father were of the same eternal essence. After the decision, Arius became extremely defiant. And one day, after making lots of trouble and violence for the Church, Arius and an associate were walking through Constantinople when he began to feel sick.
He fell to the ground, his stomach burst open, and his bowels gushed out in the middle, just like Herod and just like Judas.
Not a happy ending. Nobody killed him, that’s how he died.
That kind of bizarre death can only be a judgment from God.

Steve, I know you are very devout and very sincere.
You wouldn’t be here defending your position so firmly
if you were just some hypocrite who like to talk religion.
I don’t doubt for a minute that you really love YHWH.
But the information you have received on doctrine is gravely
erroneous information. Not only on doctrine, but also the mythical claim that for the 1st three hundred years the early Christians DIDN’T believe that Jesus was God and that there was some big controversy in the church about it. There was not.
The controversy began with Arius when he introduced his NOVEL
and very crafty new teachings. THAT’s when the controversy in the church over Jesus’s deity began. Arius was clever.
Wrong. But clever. And he died a sudden and horrific death.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
BibleSteve said:
I would disagree with this statement… from the time the “Trinity” doctrine was established down to today, there has been a steady flow of millions upon millions of people who didn’t agree with the doctrine… believing Jehovah to be the only true and Almighty God, with Jesus being His Son…

In all honesty, this has been a ongoing disagreement about 2,000 years.

I would say the “basic fundamental belief” of JW’s is that the Trinity doctrine isn’t correct…

As for the other understandings of JW"s… .Dan 12:3, 4 indicates that true knowledge would arise in the last days…
Click to expand...
Can you give some examples of these “millions” besides the JWs and the Arian heresy?

God Bless,
Michael
 
Steve,
thanks for the wikipedia article.

The fact is that all of the early church writers believed
that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were persons and were God.

The wikipedia article contains numerous errors.

And Constantine the Great had nothing to do with creating the doctrine of the Trinity. He was not “in charge” of the Nicene Council, it was Bishop Hosius of Cordova, the representative of the Bishop of Rome, who was the head of the council.
Constantine was an honored GUEST at the council, not a voting member. He did whisper into the ears of one of the bishops that since the bishops all basically believed that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were God-in-a-Unity, that the word “homoousios” might best express what they were trying to say. The bishops agreed that homoousios was in fact the best way to express what they all already believed (except for Arius and a few of his cohorts).

Adoptionism was a compromise between Arianism and the Nicene decision, and it began to grow among confused people afteer the Nicene Council.

The Arians, though defeated at the Council, were supported by Constantine’s son and through much violence and bloodshed on THEIR part, they drove all the rightful Catholic bishops from their Sees and replaced them with Arian bishops. The Arians, violent and malevolent, came within a hair’s breadth of completely destroying the Catholic Church. Heroic exiled bishops like Athanasius (may he reign in glory with Christ) and the Bishop of Rome kept the true faith alive through the crisis, along with the vast majority of the Laity who refused to accept the Arian heresy despite the violent manner in which the Arians took their churches away from them.

Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
Now that I have read through the threads I think that BibleSteve needs to be commended for his many responses. He handled himself as a gentleman and a ‘scholar’. And he defused the more antiJW comments from some posters.

However, I can never agree with the shunning part of the JW faith. I have one person in mind when I say this. She is a young woman who was shunned by her JW family when she left the kingdom hall. I think that this has caused her some pain. She is now a member of the Orthodox faith. I view this shunning practice as evil. And of course, I am not sure just how it is practiced in the JW faith, but from what I gather, it seems satanic. I would like BibleSteve to shed some light on this practice in the JW’s to relieve my possible misconceptions.

I could never shun my children. :grouphug:
 
why_me said:
Now that I have read through the threads I think that BibleSteve needs to be commended for his many responses. He handled himself as a gentleman and a ‘scholar’. And he defused the more antiJW comments from some posters.

However, I can never agree with the shunning part of the JW faith. I have one person in mind when I say this. She is a young woman who was shunned by her JW family when she left the kingdom hall. I think that this has caused her some pain. She is now a member of the Orthodox faith. I view this shunning practice as evil. And of course, I am not sure just how it is practiced in the JW faith, but from what I gather, it seems satanic. I would like BibleSteve to shed some light on this practice in the JW’s to relieve my possible misconceptions.

I could never shun my children. :grouphug:
Click to expand...
Thank you for the nice words. I always appreciate good discussion with others who understand things differently than me.

Since the topic of shunning or disfellowshipping is off topic on this thread, I will open a new thread with your question…
 
BibleSteve said:
Thank you for the nice words. I always appreciate good discussion with others who understand things differently than me.

Since the topic of shunning or disfellowshipping is off topic on this thread, I will open a new thread with your question…
Click to expand...
That will be a great idea since there seems to be some misunderstanding (or understanding) about it. 👍
 
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