Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[1beleevr]

ncgolf:F-O-R-E! Hey, I couldn’t find where it says that cannibalism, involved the eating of flesh, that was dead, just says, eating of flesh of the same kind! What is so hard about believing that symbolism, can be used as a tool for teaching and learning? Jesus does it all through the gospels, and then, you say, “He wasn’t speaking symbolically!”. This sounds more like making something fit your agenda, apractice us non-catholics have been accused of repeatedly! And my ex-wife may be dead; this happened almost thirty years ago, and I haven’t spoken to her in at least 25.

 

[1beleevr]

Trying to understand the process of annulmentOkay, someone once said, that annulment can only happen, if the marriage had lasted less than a year, and there were no children involved! Now if a catholic marries, then sometime down the road wants out; can he/she get an annulment, regardless of how long the marriage has ben in force? If the woman is guilty of unfaithfulness, and initiates the divorce, must the man remain unmarried until death? Does Matthew 19:9 apply to remarriage?

 

[1beleevr]

onenow1: So if Jesus is not physically standing next to you, or in front of you, as you have the wafer placed on your tongue, must you imagine, or mentally “see” Him, and “taste” Him? This wasn’t the first time He used symbolism!

 

[SHW]

shw: The comment about,“making yourself your own little pope”, is disingenous at best! Someone used it with me(could have been you). And not everyone twists scripture to fit their own agenda; some actually read scripture, and with the discernment granted to them by the Holy Spirit, understand, and apply these scriptures to their everday life.

It is a truthful statement. People who think or believe that the Holy Spirit grants them infallible discernment in their own interpretations of Scripture are giving themselves illegitimate authority. It is not God-given authority (which is reserved for His Church hierarchy and their successors) which is given to them, but it is instead self-given authority.

The gospel of Christ is passed down through the hierarchy of the Church.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

The teachings come from the Apostles, these teachings are passed down intact without change. Persons are not supposed to study Scripture and then decide their own gospel according to their own private interpretations. They are “untaught” by God’s Catholic Church so they make mistakes (twist Scripture).

As far as money, and giving to the church, let us not forget Luke 21:3-4, which says,“I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put in more than all of the others.4All these people put in their gifts out of their wealth, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she had to live on”.

And we do respect the pope, because he is a man of God:thumbsup:No mere mortal, however is worthy to be called:Holy Father! Sorry, but that is blasphemy at it’s worst! Jesus is the Name above all names, and God is the ONLY one that will be called Holy Father! But another thing we must keep in mind: you can respect someone, without liking them, and like someone without respecting them!

“Holy” Father means that he is “consecrated” for use by God (chief stewardship office of the Church); it does not mean that he is personally holy, although he should try his best to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48) This is not blasphemous at all. You misunderstand and therefore you misjudge. (2 Peter 2:12)

Romans 13:1-7, tells us that we must respect those that God has placed in authority over us, even if we don’t always like or agree with them! How many of you can apply Romans 13 to the situation with President Obama? Would you rather see someone else in there? Did God allow him to win for a reason?

President Obama is not our authority over us. God and our constitution have authority over us. Ours is a constitutional government by rule of law. Those who break God’s laws and/or our laws according to our constitution do not need to be morally obeyed. Please see this post for a more complete explanation:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5459972&postcount=676

Plus, the pope is over catholics, not the rest of us!

God states otherwise: (Luke 10:16, Matthew 18:17, 1 Timothy 3:15)

And one more thing about giving; it’s not about the amount, rather it is the spirit in which it was given

Yes, God loves a cheerful giver. (2 Corinthians 9:5-7) However, this is just the beginning.

Luke 3:11
He answered and said to them, “He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.

Luke 12:48
But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Matthew 19:23
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

If you desire to be especially broadminded about what “household” can mean:

Ephesians 2:19
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Persons who are rich are supposed to see to it that the poor are cared for; they are not supposed to spend all their wealth on themselves. (Mark 10:20-23)

That’s all for today!

 

[guanophore]

If I treated everyone I met, like Christ, I would be able to walk on water! Oh wait, by my faith in Him, I could walk on water, if that were His will.

I am glad to hear you say this. It is indeed the truth. Many have said it is impossible to avoid sin in this life, but that is not the case. Granted, we all fall short in many ways, but it is not because of the lack of grace available, or because of God’s inability to keep our feet from stumbling.

 

[onenow1]

onenow1: So if Jesus is not physically standing next to you, or in front of you, as you have the wafer placed on your tongue, must you imagine, or mentally “see” Him, and “taste” Him? This wasn’t the first time He used symbolism!

Quote=onenow1. This is a preposterous response, and this is not symbolism. #1B, you just don’t understand and don’t think God can do anything he wants anyway he wants, to gain your and my salvation including transubstanciation

Jesus indeed is the center piece of Catholic Churches, the Crucifix, not just a cross empty of its reason ! I can relate to a crucifix my friends but I cannot relate to an empty cross for I do not know what it is to rise from the dead but we all must one day die, just as Jesus did !

In Matthew 26:26, He said, “Take and eat; THIS IS MY BODY.”
In Matthew 26:27-28 He said, "All of you drink of this; FOR THIS IS MY BLOOD OF THE

NEW COVENANT, WHICH IS BEING SHED FOR MANY UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS."

St. Paul indeed preached Christ Crucified !

Peace,onenow1

 

[heiscominginthe]

I’m wondering if you could give me quotes of any early Church Father who believed Confession to a priest wasn’t necessary

When you can produce another man beside Jesus who lived a life without sin and is worthy to forgive sin, then I will give you some quotes.

 

[guanophore]

I have never even believed that ANYONE prayed through Mary or the saints for salvation Until I came into this forum, I wasn’t sure why catholics did, just curious!

We pray for our selves this way because we have a different conception of salvation than evangelicals. The Apostles taught that salvation was past, present, and future. It is not completed until we are glorified inheaven, and that we can fall away from the faith, and be “cut off” from the vine of Life (Jesus). Therefore we ask for the help of those who have gone on before us in the faith to pray for us, and strengthen us so that we can persevere until the end, as they all have done. We accept them as part of the “great cloud of witnesses” listed in Heb. 11, able to witness our struggle, be in solidarity with us, and that their effectual fervent prayers will avail much on our behalf.

 

[guanophore]

Matt 16:9 and John 20:23 here Jesus gives authority to all believers to Declare what was bound or loosed in heaven.

No, that is not the case. He is addressing His Apostles here. I think you are trying to deny that Jesus set up a structure of authority in the Church. This is one way to justify refusing to submit to it!

All this must be understood in the context of Matt18:15-17 where Christ laid out specific instructions for dealing with sin in the church. The body of believers acting in accord with God’s Word has the authority to Declare if someone is forgiven or unforgiven.

I can see where you are missing the mark. You are functioning under a deficient understanding of the nature of “church”. The church is much more than a local body of believers. We can see this by the lack of unity between all the local bodies of believers. A person could not get ejected from one community,then join with another, if there were unity. Unity is with the Truth, and Truth is defined by Christ. Christ appointed the Apostles in authority, and they passed this on to their successors.

The church’s authority is not to determine these things,

According to your model, there does not seem to be any church authority, except “the body of believers”.

but to Declare the judgment of heaven based on the principles of the Word. When they make such judgments on the basis of God’s Word,

Sorry, but no dice freedom. There was no NT when these principles were put in place by Christ. He never gave authority to “the word”, but to the people He trained.

they can be sure heaven is in accord. In other words whatever they bind or loose on earth is already bound or loosed in heaven.
You see you learn something new everyday.

I hope you do, freedom, I hope you do.

Because I was a catholic for over 30 years till i got tired of all the misinterpretations the church was saying about scripture.

Really? And what standard do you use to decide whose interpretation is correct?

I also got tired of seeing the pope being worshipped as if he was Christ himself.

Really? It seems like you were reared in a very bizarre “catholic” environment, since the Catholic Church teaches that it is a violation of the first commandment to worship any other than God. Were you in Rome? Did you participate in this worship? If so, I hope you went to confession!.

Asking for money was a big issue for me as well.

Why did you do it, then?

The church i now attend does not ask for money 2-3 a service. They simply have offering boxes around the church so if you want to give you can without being told.

Well, shame on the Catholics for asking for money! Better send a shame on you to the Apostles as well.

As the Lord loves a cheerful giver not a disgruntled one.

It is sad to hear that you were such a disgruntled giver at the time. This seems to say a lot more about you than it does the Catholic Church.

Sorry if i offend anyone but those are just a few of the reasons for being a “Born again Catholic”

It is disingenuous for you to take the name “Catholic” to yourself. You are obviously carrying serious hostilities and misinformation about the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

1 timothy 4:16 16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all, to save at least some.

James 5:19-20
19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

It is not appropriate or helpful for you to repost this half a dozen times in response to unrelated posts.

However, I do agree that these scriptures support that we can participate in the ministry of God reconciling the world to Himself.

 

[ncgolf]

ncgolf:F-O-R-E! Hey, I couldn’t find where it says that cannibalism, involved the eating of flesh, that was dead, just says, eating of flesh of the same kind!

But if you cannibilize the object of the cannibalization would … in the end be dead … correct? So cannibilization cannot pertain to what Catholics believe since the object is living … even after being consumed.

What is so hard about believing that symbolism, can be used as a tool for teaching and learning?

Symbolism is good for teaching but in the end it is not the object, no mere symbol can be Christ. When Christ says “This is my body” … He is not just teaching … He is telling.

Jesus does it all through the gospels, and then, you say, “He wasn’t speaking symbolically!”.

We were all taught … you too … my teaching comes comes from the Word on paper and the Word given to the Apostles. Remember the Bible was a Catholic document.

This sounds more like making something fit your agenda

My only agenda is to be able to speak clearly enough to what the Apostolic Church has taught since the beginning.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Seems to me Jesus never calls the disciples back that walked away.

Did Jesus want them to leave, and that’s why he did"nt call them back and say no I’m only talking in symbols. I find that hard to believe.

Consider this Matt 13:10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

I think the reason you give here is one very valid reason that Jesus talked in parables. He wanted to weed out those who did not or would not accept Him in faith.

Let’s take a look at Jn6 in context
50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Jesus says here that He is the living bread and then that the bread that He will give is His flesh. Well, let me ask you is Jesus really bread, no of coarse not. And is His flesh bread? Well, the CC would say that that is communion. If Jesus is not actually bread and I think I can safely say that He is not. He was probably talking symbolically here. So, if He is talking symbolically about Himself being bread He probably is talking symbolically about His flesh being bread.

Ok, what does it mean then? Jn 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I believe that Jesus is saying that He is the Word of God which came down from heaven and it is the Word of God that was made flesh and it is the Word of God that we are to eat that will give us eternal life. Ok, keep this principle in mind as you read through v. 58

52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

This is not the twelve, but others. He hears them murmuring and decides to call them on their lack of faith.

61When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

He says does this offend you? What if you saw me sitting in heaven next to my Father? Would you believe me then? The implied answer is of coarse no.

63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

In this v. I believe Jesus confirms what I have been saying. That His words are spirit and they are life. The flesh that He talks about in this v. is the spirit of the world.

64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

See Jesus knew from the beginning that These guys didn’t believe in Him. So, He saw no reason to call them back and explain it to them.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

These disciples were not cooperating with the Holy Spirit that the Father had sent to them and therefore they walked no more with Him.

67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Here Peter affirms what Jesus has been saying all along and that is that the WORDS of Jesus lead to eternal life.

 

[1beleevr]

onenow1: I hate to keep disagreeing with you, but I don’t recall the disciples gnawing on Jesus’s arms, or legeg, or cutting Him, and literally drinking His blood! It is symbolic, but you use some word that most people have never heard of, to describe something that most if not all Christians do, which is communion! When I’m taking communion, remembering the sacrifice, often times, crying; also realizing that communion is a sign of a relationship as well, an opportunity to enter the throneroom of grace(Hebrews 4:16:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

ncgolf: Never said that Jesus was dead; I know that He Lives!!! What I was getting at was, some of the disciples that heard Him say, “eat of My body, drink of My blood,” were probably repulsed, and turned away. Try to put yourself in their place, and Jesus says that to you. Are you automatically going to say, “O, I know what He is talking about?” And yes, once someone is the victim of cannibals, then the flessh dies(eventually). So, if He really didn’t mean for us to eat His flesh(which cannot enter into Heaven) and drink His blood, wouldn’t what He said be symbolic? Don’t we use examples, and symbolisms to teach others? Jesus said,“You will know the Truth(Himself), and the Truth will set you free!”

 

[elvisman]

elvisman: Romans 14:10, says that we shouldn’t condemn or lookdown on another believer.And how can you say that we are disingenuous, because we don’t believe the same way as you do? At work, we have an Employee Assistance Program, but it doesn’t mean that if you don’t NEED to use it, you don’t belong to your work"family". Speaking of finding post #'s, would you mind finding all of mine, where I specifically stated that I believed that those who are “asleep”, as Jesus and Paul have alluded to are not useful to some, but not all! What I have said, on many occasions, is that, if you feel the desire, or the NEED to pray through the saints(or Mary, or both), please do! Or if you feel the obligation, or need to visit a priest, and call him father, once again; feel free! You know, God gave us free will for many reasons, the biggest one being, so that we could choose Him:thumbsup:

Nobody is condemning or looking down on ANYBODY.
What I object to is the outright rejection of Scripture by many Protestants on this board who say they believe in the Body of Christ, yet say that Catholics are wrong for asking members of that Body for help.

**This entire thread has been one hypocritical statement after another by many of you. On another post in this thread, you say you believe in OSAS, yet the CONTEXT of Scripture condemns that false notion (****Matt. 7:21, ****Matt. 24:13, ****Romans 11:22, ****1 Cor. 9:27, **Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:26-27). You believe in OSAS yet reject the explicit passages where Jesus gave the Church the power to forgive and retain sin. Jesus spoke well of many of you when he said:
***Well did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; ***
*In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.’ *
*You disregard God’s commandment but cling to human tradition." *
He went on to say, "How well you have set aside the commandment of God in order to uphold your tradition! (Mark 7:6-9)

---

Lastly - Jesus didn’t give us different choices on what we could believe in order to get to Heaven. There is only ONE way and that is through Him - and He and his Church are ONE.

 

[1beleevr]

elvisman: Step down off of your high horse for a moment! You guys have never asked us for help for the Body of Christ! Rather you have rebuked us for not being catholic. And no one has proven to me, by oral tradition or scripture, that anyone who has been sincerely saved, and baptized can lose their salvation! We sin every day of the week, and it is dificult to avoid it! Easier to remember that God’s grace restores after we have sinned! All of those verses are impressive,but I don’t know exactly what you are trying to prove Until you can show me that I can LOSE my salvation, it will be OSAS!

 

[onenow1]

Consider this Matt 13:10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Quote=onenow1 Thank you Richard, some things in your post inconsistent with reality.
Jesus reaffirs that His Flesh is real food and His blood is real Drink. 6 X

John’s Gospel considered by most to be a book of signs. I also gather in your post free will is not even considered by you ! So you try impose your understanding,and make it look like it is from Jesus; and that’s fine if it truly is your belief !

Here’s what I prefer to believe closer to Jesus time ! :yup:

The Didache (Did-Ah-Key), or teaching of the Apostles, 9:1-5
Let no one eat or drink of the Eucharist with you except those who have
been baptized in the Name of the Lord; for it was in reference to this that
the Lord said, “Do not give that which is Holy to dogs.” Matthew 7:6

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans, 7:3, 106AD
I desire the bread of GOD, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ.

St. IgnatiusProbably a disciple of St. John.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrneans, 6:2, 106AD
They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not
confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of Our Savior Jesus Christ, Flesh
which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His goodness, raised
up again. THEY WHO DENY THE GIFT OF GOD ARE PERISHING
IN THEIR DISPUTES.

St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 22(Mystagogic 4)6, 350AD
Do not, therefore, regard the Bread and the Wine as simply that; for they
are, according to the Masters declaration, the Body and Blood of Christ.

St. Gregory of Nyssa, The Great Catechism, 37, 383AD
Rightly then, do we believe that the bread consecrated by the Word of GOD
has been made over into the Body of GOD the Word…
.

Peace and God Bless onenow1opcorn:

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[1beleevr]

onenow1: I have seen crosses on or near catholic properties, which do not contain a corpus! The cross I wear, is empty, as was Jesus’s, after He was REMOVED from it! I don’t need to see a corpus on the Cross, to remind of the pain, and humiliation He suffered. To me, an empty cross is a sign of V-I-C-T-O-R-Y!!!

 

[onenow1]

onenow1: I hate to keep disagreeing with you, but I don’t recall the disciples gnawing on Jesus’s arms, or legeg, or cutting Him, and literally drinking His blood! It is symbolic, but you use some word that most people have never heard of, to describe something that most if not all Christians do, which is communion! When I’m taking communion, remembering the sacrifice, often times, crying; also realizing that communion is a sign of a relationship as well, an opportunity to enter the throneroom of grace(Hebrews 4:16:thumbsup:

Quote= onenow 1. #1 your not disagreeing with me per se you are however disagreeing with 2000 yrs. of teaching from the Apostles and early Church Fathers.

Peace,onenow1

 

[1beleevr]

onenow1: So, you’re saying, that when I take communion, and close my eyes, that it is impossible for me to visualize Christ with me, as I remember His words…“this is my Body, do this in remeberance Me…”? And I am not disagreeing with 2k years of apostolic teaching, as Christ shared the bread and wine with them, He broke it and gave each one their own piece, and each drank from the cup:thumbsupeace be with you, my sister