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dogknox
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JonNC As I mentioned in post #66 I now again state…
Yes I am referring to Consubstantiation…
Christian have ALWAYS believed, The Bread IS the Body of Jesus!!!
NOTE: You never answered my question…
Do you accept the scriptures or not… “Has Jesus ALWAYS been with the Lutheran church!!!”?
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Did Jesus lie when he said… “I am with you ALWAYS even to the very end of the age”?!
Jesus is ALWAYS WITH the Church he formed, he is ALWAYS with the Catholic Church; The Holy Catholic Church headed by the Pope, with his APOSTOLIC linage back to Peter!
JonNC You not Catholic!! You are forced to reject the words of Jesus, you are forced to think; "Jesus lied, that he is NOT ALWAYS with the Body he formed! That he left for the thousands and thousands of man made protesting churches, the Lutheran church is one of the many thousands!
Dogknox
Yes I am referring to Consubstantiation…
Christian have ALWAYS believed, The Bread IS the Body of Jesus!!!
NOTE: You never answered my question…
Do you accept the scriptures or not… “Has Jesus ALWAYS been with the Lutheran church!!!”?
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Did Jesus lie when he said… “I am with you ALWAYS even to the very end of the age”?!
Jesus is ALWAYS WITH the Church he formed, he is ALWAYS with the Catholic Church; The Holy Catholic Church headed by the Pope, with his APOSTOLIC linage back to Peter!
JonNC You not Catholic!! You are forced to reject the words of Jesus, you are forced to think; "Jesus lied, that he is NOT ALWAYS with the Body he formed! That he left for the thousands and thousands of man made protesting churches, the Lutheran church is one of the many thousands!
Dogknox
And I agreed with you: Christ said, while holding the bread, “This is My body”. This is most certainly true.
Yes, by virtue of our common Baptism, and His words, “Where two or more are gathered in My name, there I shall be also”.
Obviously, I do not think He lied.
Yes, I believe He is with the Catholic Church. And the Orthodox Church, etc.
I will not allow you to put me in some triumphalist box that forces me to limit the grace and power of God. If you wish to limit God, be my guest, but I think your Catechism spells out what your Church believes:
Christ is found in His Church wherever it may be - where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. Is He with the Catholic Church, those in communion with the Bishop of Rome? Absolutely.
Is His Spirit present in my Lutheran parish when we preach the word and administer the sacraments? Absolutely.
Does Christ call us to do these things together and not divided? Absolutely. And I would contend that, when adherants to either of our communions fail to see the Spirit in each other, or claim that the other is not in His grace, we do more damage to His Church and its call here on earth as the Church Militant.
Dogknox, if you seek further dialogue along the lines of this question, seek it elsewhere, as I will not respond again to questions that infer that I consider Christ a liar. I find it offensive, and not in keeping with the 8th commandment. If, instead, you wish to dialogue in a way that furthers the cause of unity, I am more than willing to charitably dialogue with you.
His Peace be with you.
Jon
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dogknox
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JonNC Your words
Jesus gave the AUTHORITY to speak for him…“In his NAME” to his Holy Catholic Church!
The authority to speak for someone else must be done in person, one to the other. Authority to speak in the name of another person cannot be received other then person to person!
There was NO Lutherans … ZERO Lutherans, when Jesus gave the AUTHORITY to speak in his name! Jesus had left the earth sixteen hundred years before there were any Lutherans! Jesus did not come back sixteen hundred years later to give his Authority to represent him to any Lutherans!
JonNC “Where two or more are gathered in My name, there I shall be also”. Cannot apply to you, you can’t be “In the Name Of Jesus”! I laugh when I hear a televangelist end a prayer with… “…and we ask this in the name of Jesus, Amen”! As IF; Jesus came back and gave this protester the Authority to speak in his name, two thousand years after he left the earth!! He can’t ask for anything; “In the Name Of Jesus” he can’t speak for Jesus!!
“Where two or more are gathered in My name, there I shall be also” Does not apply to you… “You are NOT Catholic, you are not a Catholic Bishop/Priest with AUTHORITY!”
Dogknox
I reply… “To be gathered in the Name of Jesus” you have to have the AUTHORITY to speak for Jesus!
Jesus gave the AUTHORITY to speak for him…“In his NAME” to his Holy Catholic Church!
The authority to speak for someone else must be done in person, one to the other. Authority to speak in the name of another person cannot be received other then person to person!
There was NO Lutherans … ZERO Lutherans, when Jesus gave the AUTHORITY to speak in his name! Jesus had left the earth sixteen hundred years before there were any Lutherans! Jesus did not come back sixteen hundred years later to give his Authority to represent him to any Lutherans!
JonNC “Where two or more are gathered in My name, there I shall be also”. Cannot apply to you, you can’t be “In the Name Of Jesus”! I laugh when I hear a televangelist end a prayer with… “…and we ask this in the name of Jesus, Amen”! As IF; Jesus came back and gave this protester the Authority to speak in his name, two thousand years after he left the earth!! He can’t ask for anything; “In the Name Of Jesus” he can’t speak for Jesus!!
“Where two or more are gathered in My name, there I shall be also” Does not apply to you… “You are NOT Catholic, you are not a Catholic Bishop/Priest with AUTHORITY!”
Dogknox
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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And you sir are not being a good christian or follower of the Catholic church and her teaching. As the Church holds and teaches that those whom are member of these other Ecclesiastical communities are christian and do contain to varying degree portions of the truth.JonNC Your words
I reply… “To be gathered in the Name of Jesus” you have to have the AUTHORITY to speak for Jesus!
Jesus gave the AUTHORITY to speak for him…“In his NAME” to his Holy Catholic Church!
The authority to speak for someone else must be done in person, one to the other. Authority to speak in the name of another person cannot be received other then person to person!
There was NO Lutherans … ZERO Lutherans, when Jesus gave the AUTHORITY to speak in his name! Jesus had left the earth sixteen hundred years before there were any Lutherans! Jesus did not come back sixteen hundred years later to give his Authority to represent him to any Lutherans!
JonNC “Where two or more are gathered in My name, there I shall be also”. Cannot apply to you, you can’t be “In the Name Of Jesus”! I laugh when I hear a televangelist end a prayer with… “…and we ask this in the name of Jesus, Amen”! As IF; Jesus came back and gave this protester the Authority to speak in his name, two thousand years after he left the earth!! He can’t ask for anything; “In the Name Of Jesus” he can’t speak for Jesus!!
“Where two or more are gathered in My name, there I shall be also” Does not apply to you… “You are NOT Catholic, you are not a Catholic Bishop/Priest with AUTHORITY!”
Dogknox
And what about what Christ said in the Gospel?
let us look at the Gospel according to St Mark chapter 9 verse 37 " [37] John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us, and we forbade him." then in verse 38-40 Christ says "[38] But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me. [39] For he that is not against you, is for you. [40] For whosoever shall give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to Christ: amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. "
These are our brother, and though we should pray and work for unity That one day all that are separated from the church will one day come home, neither I nor you can say they are not christian.
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dogknox
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oneGODoneCHURCH Your words…
Separated DICTIONARY DOT COM
sep·a·rate [v. sep-uh-reyt; adj., n. sep-er-it] Show IPA verb, -rat·ed, -rat·ing, adjective, noun
verb (used with object)
1.to keep apart or divide, as by an intervening barrier or space: to separate two fields by a fence.
2.to put, bring, or force apart; part: to separate two fighting boys.
3.to set apart;** disconnect; dissociate**: to separate church and state.
4.to remove or sever from association, service, etc., especially legally or formally: He was separated from the army right after V-E Day.
5.to sort, part, divide, or disperse (an assemblage, mass, compound, etc.), as into individual units, components, or elements.
oneGODoneCHURCH Do you see it??
They are “Separated”; ** disconnected; dissociated**
They are NOT Associated with the Body of Jesus!
Jesus formed ONE Church… He did not form any protestant churches NOT even one!!
Protestant: To be IN PROTEST against, “The Body Of Jesus”!!!
All “IN the Body of Jesus” are children of God! God has only one son…!
Ten sons (10) are nine sons (9) to many!!! JUST ONE SON, named Jesus!
If you are NOT “IN” the body of Jesus then you are NOT God’ child, it is just this simple!
oneGODoneCHURCH IF…
If you are “IN” Jesus then Mary would be your mother… Ask your protestant friends if Mary is their mother!
IF…
If Mary was their mother then Jesus would be their “BROTHER”!
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing…
Baptism makes DISCIPLES!!! make disciples of all nations, baptizing…Ask your protestant friend is Baptism is symbolic!!
Matthew 12:49
Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
Who are the BROTHERS of Jesus??? Answer is; “DISCIPLES are”!!
Back up to the first statement… If you are “IN” Jesus then you are IN the Family of God… Mary would be your mother!
Disciples are BROTHERS/SISTERS of Jesus, they honor Mary as Mother because Jesus HONORS his Mother & Father!
I am Catholic, I state these FACTS (above), that you cannot deny!!!
Dogknox
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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My suggestion to you is to take it up with the POPE, As per The Holy father and the teaching of the Church they are Christian. that pretty much ends the debate for a faithful catholic. I am of the Catholic faith and what I have written is fact, that you can not deny.
I also noticed that you failed to address the quotes from scripture that I gave in my last post to address this issue.
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ConstantinePX
Guest
Protestants intially split over Eccelisastical motions, making them schismatic, not heretical.
However, the fervor got rolling and eventually it became full blown Heresy.
Can the heretics be saved? Surely. If they are pious and live pious lives, Im sure they are saved just as we are.
Are they however justified in calling their teachings and ways superior to CC’s? No, for at that point they have committed the greatest sin, that is, false shepherding, and will be judged 100x over then their sheep.
Yes. A protestant can be saved. A protestant who thinks their way or the highway?
Highway to hell, more like it.
Recommended reading: The book of Concord. food for thought.
However, the fervor got rolling and eventually it became full blown Heresy.
Can the heretics be saved? Surely. If they are pious and live pious lives, Im sure they are saved just as we are.
Are they however justified in calling their teachings and ways superior to CC’s? No, for at that point they have committed the greatest sin, that is, false shepherding, and will be judged 100x over then their sheep.
Yes. A protestant can be saved. A protestant who thinks their way or the highway?
Highway to hell, more like it.
Recommended reading: The book of Concord. food for thought.
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dogknox
Guest
oneGODoneCHURCH Yes they are to a degree christian, in name only. **FACT: **They reject Baptism!!!
So they (protestants) do not fall under the Catholic Church idea of “Christian!”
As far as scripture goes… They (protestants) preach and teach “Good works” will get you into Gehenna! They (protestants) TEACH against scriptures, God’s words!!
Matthew 23:13
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
They (protestants) shut the door to heaven for the searching man!
oneGODoneCHURCH Again… One more time, read what I wrote!!
Disciples are BROTHERS/SISTERS of Jesus, they are formed into Jesus family by >>BAPTISM<<! The protestant >>REJECTS Baptism<<!!
The baptized honor Mary as Mother because Jesus HONORS his Mother & Father! The Baptized are “IN the body of Jesus”!
I am Catholic, I state these FACTS (above), that you cannot deny!!!
Dogknox
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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No they do not reject baptism. The main line and most all baptize using water and the triune formula.
Again the Church disagree with you.
that is not what the preach they teach that good works in and of them self will not get you into heaven. They have a incomplete understanding of how faith ans works come together, But lets us not misrepresent what they teach.
Again… One more time, read what I wrote!!
Disciples are BROTHERS/SISTERS of Jesus, they are formed into Jesus family by >>BAPTISM<<! The protestant >>REJECTS Baptism<<!!
read above
I know of no protestant from any denomination that does not recognized and give the BVM the honor she is in tiled as mother of Christ, they do not see the need for veneration. And even as Catholics that is not mandated.
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dogknox
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oneGODoneCHURCH I hope all is well with you…
This is from Wikipedia: (Note the Red hi-lite)
Today, some Christians, particularly Quakers and the Salvation Army, do not see baptism as necessary, and do not practice the rite.
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Most Christians baptize infants; many others hold that only believer’s baptism is true baptism.
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Swiss Reformer Huldrych Zwingli differed with the Lutherans by denying sacramental status of baptism. Zwingli identified baptism and the Lord’s supper as sacraments, but in the sense of an initiatory ceremony. His understanding of these sacraments** as symbolic** differentiated him from Luther.
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By contrast, most Reformed (Calvinist), evangelical, and fundamentalist Protestant groups **recognize baptism as an act of obedience to and identification with Jesus as the Christ. ****They say that baptism has no sacramental (saving) power, **and only testifies outwardly to the invisible and internal operation of God’s power, which is completely separate from the rite itself.
Churches of Christ consistently teach that in baptism a believer surrenders his life in faith and obedience to God, and that God “by the merits of Christ’s blood, cleanses one from sin and truly changes the state of the person from an alien to a citizen of God’s kingdom. Baptism is not a human work; it is the place where God does the work that only God can do.” Thus, they see baptism as a passive act of faith rather than a meritorious work; it “is a confession that a person has nothing to offer God.”
oneGODoneCHURCH It goes on to say: The Churches of Christ and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also espouse baptism as necessary for salvation.
So from this we can say “Mormons & The Church of Christ” along with the Lutheran, Orthodox, Anglican, Methodist are the ONLY CHRISTIAN CHURCHES!!!
This tells you >>>MOST<<< protestant churches are NOT Christian!!! From the Catholic view point!
Dogknox
This is from Wikipedia: (Note the Red hi-lite)
Today, some Christians, particularly Quakers and the Salvation Army, do not see baptism as necessary, and do not practice the rite.
&
Most Christians baptize infants; many others hold that only believer’s baptism is true baptism.
&
Swiss Reformer Huldrych Zwingli differed with the Lutherans by denying sacramental status of baptism. Zwingli identified baptism and the Lord’s supper as sacraments, but in the sense of an initiatory ceremony. His understanding of these sacraments** as symbolic** differentiated him from Luther.
&
By contrast, most Reformed (Calvinist), evangelical, and fundamentalist Protestant groups **recognize baptism as an act of obedience to and identification with Jesus as the Christ. ****They say that baptism has no sacramental (saving) power, **and only testifies outwardly to the invisible and internal operation of God’s power, which is completely separate from the rite itself.
Churches of Christ consistently teach that in baptism a believer surrenders his life in faith and obedience to God, and that God “by the merits of Christ’s blood, cleanses one from sin and truly changes the state of the person from an alien to a citizen of God’s kingdom. Baptism is not a human work; it is the place where God does the work that only God can do.” Thus, they see baptism as a passive act of faith rather than a meritorious work; it “is a confession that a person has nothing to offer God.”
oneGODoneCHURCH It goes on to say: The Churches of Christ and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints also espouse baptism as necessary for salvation.
So from this we can say “Mormons & The Church of Christ” along with the Lutheran, Orthodox, Anglican, Methodist are the ONLY CHRISTIAN CHURCHES!!!
This tells you >>>MOST<<< protestant churches are NOT Christian!!! From the Catholic view point!
Dogknox
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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Fine you go by what wikipedia says. That they are not christian. I on the other hand shall go by** what the Church and Pope says that they are Christian.
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And you have again failed to address the quote for the Gospel I am now posting for the 3rd time.
the Gospel according to St Mark chapter 9 verse 37 " [37] John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us, and we forbade him." then in verse 38-40 Christ says "[38] But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me. [39] For he that is not against you, is for you. [40] For whosoever shall give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to Christ: amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward. "
*Article IX: Of Baptism.
1] Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary 2] to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God’s grace.*
2. We reject and condemn as offensive and detrimental to Christian discipline the bare expression, when it is said: Good works are injurious to salvation
7. Hence we believe, teach, and confess that Mary conceived and bore not a mere man and no more, but the true Son of God; therefore she also is rightly called and truly is the mother of God.
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*On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother’s womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin. *
Jon
All responses from the Book of Concord.
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dogknox
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**I reply: **The POPE SAYS: They are christian if they are properly baptized!!!
Again MOST protestant reject baptism!!!
Dogknox
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dogknox
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Hello** JonNC **I hope all is well today!!
Question: Does the “NC” in your name mean “Non Catholic”?
I seem to remember in a post above, it was pointed out… Your priests are “Playing priests”! They, you and all Lutherans reject “Holy Orders as being a sacrament!”
Your priests/bishops do not have linage back to the Apostles!
The authority to be “Priest/Bishop must be passed on in person, by the laying on of hands!” Martin Luther was NOT a Bishop, he was a priest with NO authority to “Lay on hands”! Martin Luther had taken VOWS of Obedience to his Church and God! He rejected his VOWS!!
Seems to me the Lutheran body is not Apostolic! It was formed by man, who PROTESTED against Jesus’ Church! One Bread, one CHURCH, Jesus is NOT divided against himself!!!
Dogknox
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dogknox
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Wikipedia tells us… Lutherans believe Baptism saves! So you are Christian!
Yes Good Works and Faith working together bring salvation to the Christian!
Mary is the Mother of God… MOST other protestant’s reject Mary as Mother of God but only, Mother of Jesus???
Still you insist on rejecting the Body Of Jesus!!
You know the scriptures and the history of your Lutheran church yet you continue to reject “The Church Jesus formed!”
You KNOW BETTER but… What is it: Pride that keeps you away for Jesus!?
You are content with your, melted ice cream!!
What will you tell Jesus when he asks… “Why did you reject the truth!?”
Dogknox
I won’t speak for “most other Protestants”. I’ll let them speak for themselves.Wikipedia tells us… Lutherans believe Baptism saves! So you are Christian!
Yes Good Works and Faith working together bring salvation to the Christian!
Mary is the Mother of God… MOST other protestant’s reject Mary as Mother of God but only, Mother of Jesus???
Dogknox
Thank you for acknowledging what I have told you about what Lutherans confess.
His peace,
Jon
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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Nost do not reject baptism that is why the Church teaches the most all protestant baptism are valid.
per the Cathoilic chruch:
Lutheran,Angelican, Baptism,Methodist Baptism,Baptis, Churches of Christ, Presbyterians,United Church of Christ, and most pentacostal are all valid therefore most protant baptism are valid.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
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this would also include most all non denom as well as they baptize useing the trinue formula.
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