"Jesus IS God!"?

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Planten,

When Jesus calls Himself “I Am”, He is directly referring to the name which God commanded Moses to call Him (“I Am”) 1300 years before Jesus came to earth in the flesh.
**Please note that I had raised an objection to the words “I AM”. I am What? Why Jesus could not say “I AM GOD”? He stopped short and said ’ I AM." Why is that. Then you have look back in anothe rbooks thousands of years earlier book to find out the meaning of “I AM”.

Sorry, from “I AM” I do not take the meaning “I AM GOD.”. You may do so.**
Planten, I believe you are a smart man. Please, think about this a little. If Jesus just meant to say that He existed before Abraham, He would have said “before Abraham was born, I was.” Also, when Jesus said this, those present realized what He was saying and picked up stones to try to stone Him. If the statement that He made claiming to be “I Am” didn’t mean anything, then why was He almost stoned by the crowd after He uttered it? Whatever you want to believe is up to you, but trust me, Jesus is claiming to be God here.
** That was a long time after the ministery of Jesus, near the end of his time. Why the people did not stone him earlier?. Please believe that the Jews were trapped and fed up with the preaching of Jesus. They were ready to catch him on any count, right or wrong. They were anxious to kill him.**
Planten, I commend you for your stick-to-itiveness and nobly obdurate manner in defense of something that you believe, but please, the intention of this verse is as obvious as the sun in the sky. Ask any biblical scholar as to what Jesus is saying in this verse and that person will tell you that Jesus is claiming to be God. That is why the consensus of Muslim opinion states that the true New Testament is corrupt or lost. It is because the claims made by Jesus in the New Testament are so opposed to the anti-Trinitarian claims in the Quran, which incorrectly by the way, speak of the members of the Trinity as Father, Jesus, and Mary. I would start to think twice about an all knowing Allah that can make a mistake like this (Quran 5:116).
**The Quran does not blame Jesus for anything at all. The Quran does not say he claimed to be God. So, if the New testament is corrupted it is not due to Jesus at all. Some one else had done it and we all know who he was. He came in the name of Jesus.

From Quran and from the present available bibleNT, we can discern truth from falsehood. WE can see the good work (Words) of Jesus and the final bad result of the christian teachings. Not all the (entire) bible is corrupted.**
 
**Please note that I had raised an objection to the words “I AM”. I am What? Why Jesus could not say “I AM GOD”? He stopped short and said ’ I AM." Why is that. Then you have look back in anothe rbooks thousands of years earlier book to find out the meaning of “I AM”.

Sorry, from “I AM” I do not take the meaning “I AM GOD.”. You may do so.**

** That was a long time after the ministery of Jesus, near the end of his time. Why the people did not stone him earlier?. Please believe that the Jews were trapped and fed up with the preaching of Jesus. They were ready to catch him on any count, right or wrong. They were anxious to kill him.**

**The Quran does not blame Jesus for anything at all. The Quran does not say he claimed to be God. So, if the New testament is corrupted it is not due to Jesus at all. Some one else had done it and we all know who he was. He came in the name of Jesus.

From Quran and from the present available bibleNT, we can discern truth from falsehood. WE can see the good work (Words) of Jesus and the final bad result of the christian teachings. Not all the (entire) bible is corrupted.**
Well Planten, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. May God bless you.

Peace
 
Well Planten, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. May God bless you.

Peace
** piltdown man, thank you for the good reply. That seems to be good for all of us. You have conveyed the message to me and I have listened in good faith. I thank you for being gentle. That is a good christian behaviour. May Allah help us to retain the love of Jesus and all prophets in our heart and May Allah bless you too and grant you more goodness and peace of mind. Love wassalam, planten.**
 
If we can not see ourselves as lost, we can not see ourselves as saved either.

So, for the believer in Christ knows to be saved from the “lost” condition, while the non-believer knows only that this life is all there is, and tries to mold it to some belief, which may or may not be a complete fulfillment of purpose.

My view in Christ allows for everyone to believe as they want, but if I can explain the wonder of Christ to them, perhaps they may come to know Him as I do, and enjoy the benefits of salvation, here and now.

Blessings, AJ
 
** piltdown man, thank you for the good reply. That seems to be good for all of us. You have conveyed the message to me and I have listened in good faith. I thank you for being gentle. That is a good christian behaviour. May Allah help us to retain the love of Jesus and all prophets in our heart and May Allah bless you too and grant you more goodness and peace of mind. Love wassalam, planten.**
Wow. That’s very refreshing. 👍
But I hope you don’t think me too disrespectful if I keep trying to help you understand the Christian view.
You say that Jesus should have said, “I am God.” However, we must remember where Jesus was and at what time period. Saying, “I am God” would be immediately followed with, “Which god?” Jesus anticipates this and, as a result, is more specific. “I AM” This name is sacred to the Jews. They need not ask which one.
As to why He was not stoned, I believe the church leaders saw that Jesus was in favor with many, including the people He healed. So stoning would bring the risk of a riot. By taking Him to the Romans, they were, in a sense, “washing their hands of the matter” just as Pilate did. The Romans being in so much power at the time, the Jews would be to scared to speak up. Alas their faith was weak; even the apostles ran away - their leader even going so far as to deny even knowing who Jesus was. “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” How good it is that the Holy Spirit gave them strength at Pentacost!
What say you to this?
Respectfully,
Nicole 🙂
 
The name of God was unknown till Jesus came.

Before Abraham the existence of “a” god was up to the imagination.

After Abraham it was “I am the Almighty God” and after Moses, it was “I am that I am”.

After Jesus: Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Now, there is no excuse.

So, what is your God’s name, and does He require you to love your brothers and sisters as He loves you?

If, you can answer in the affirmative, then truly we are both brothers and sisters, for we both worship the same God.

Blessings, AJ
 
** piltdown man, thank you for the good reply. That seems to be good for all of us. You have conveyed the message to me and I have listened in good faith. I thank you for being gentle. That is a good christian behaviour. May Allah help us to retain the love of Jesus and all prophets in our heart and May Allah bless you too and grant you more goodness and peace of mind. Love wassalam, planten.**
Amen, Planten. Thank you for the compliments and the blessing. I think that a lot can be accomplished with mutual kindness and respect, and I think that you exemplify good Muslim behavior. Once again, may God bless you.

Peace
 
Before Abraham the existence of “a” god was up to the imagination.
It is true that not much was known about God, but His existence was hardly up to the imagination. From the very beginning God was gradually revealing Himself. The Hebrews didn’t just imagine up the Ten Commandments. They were given by the “I AM”.
 
It is true that not much was known about God, but His existence was hardly up to the imagination. From the very beginning God was gradually revealing Himself. The Hebrews didn’t just imagine up the Ten Commandments. They were given by the “I AM”.
The Ten Commandments came after Moses, not before.

Why suppose the peoples of the world had their own gods? They understood of something higher than themselves but could not find a source to receive knowledge from.
So they made up images of things in the heavens, (Sun god), on earth, (Animal images), in the oceans, (Fish images) and or thing under neath the earth. (Demons)

But in these last days, the last days of Jesus, God has revealed Himself in His Son and by which we know God by name, Jesus.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Once in Heaven, we shall be with God.

Blessings, AJ
 
Wow. That’s very refreshing. 👍
But I hope you don’t think me too disrespectful if I keep trying to help you understand the Christian view.
You say that Jesus should have said, “I am God.” However, we must remember where Jesus was and at what time period. Saying, “I am God” would be immediately followed with, “Which god?” Jesus anticipates this and, as a result, is more specific. “I AM” This name is sacred to the Jews. They need not ask which one.
As to why He was not stoned, I believe the church leaders saw that Jesus was in favor with many, including the people He healed. So stoning would bring the risk of a riot. By taking Him to the Romans, they were, in a sense, “washing their hands of the matter” just as Pilate did. The Romans being in so much power at the time, the Jews would be to scared to speak up. Alas their faith was weak; even the apostles ran away - their leader even going so far as to deny even knowing who Jesus was. “The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.” How good it is that the Holy Spirit gave them strength at Pentacost!
What say you to this?
Respectfully,
Nicole 🙂
**MarysGirls, Thanks for your post. I need not reply to all your post, about Jesus. I have only one point about the bible saying that all apostles fled the scene, our Quran doe snot teach that. Our Quran teaches that the apostles were all firm in their faith and they fully supported Jesus. Please see just a few mentions of the apostles in the Quran:

[3:52] ۞ فَلَمَّآ أَحَسَّ عِيسَىٰ مِنۡہُمُ ٱلۡكُفۡرَ قَالَ مَنۡ أَنصَارِىٓ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ‌ۖ قَالَ ٱلۡحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحۡنُ أَنصَارُ ٱللَّهِ ءَامَنَّا بِٱللَّهِ وَٱشۡهَدۡ بِأَنَّا مُسۡلِمُونَ **

[3:53] And when Jesus perceived their disbelief, he said, ‘Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah?’ The disciples answered, ‘We are the helpers of Allah. We have believed in Allah. And bear thou witness that we are obedient.

[61:14] يٰۤاَيُّهَا الَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوْا كُوْنُوْۤا اَنْصَارَ اللّٰهِ كَمَا قَالَ عِيْسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ لِلْحَوارِيّٖنَ مَنْ اَنْصَارِىْۤ اِلَى اللّٰهِ‌ؕ قَالَ الْحَـوَارِيُّوْنَ نَحْنُ اَنْصَارُ اللّٰهِ‌ؕ فَاٰمَنَتْ طَّآٮِٕفَةٌ مِّنْۢ بَنِىْۤ اِسْرآءِيْلَ وَكَفَرَتْ طَّآٮِٕفَةٌ ۚ فَاَيَّدْنَا الَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوْا عَلٰى عَدُوِّهِمْ فَاَصْبَحُوْا ظٰهِرِيْنَ‏

[61:14] O ye who believe! be helpers of Allah, as said Jesus, son of Mary, to his disciples, ‘Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah.’ The disciples said, ‘We are helpers of Allah.’ So a party of the children of Israel believed, while a party utterly disbelieved. Then We gave power to those who believed against their enemy, and they became victorious. .
 
The wall around Jesus was predicted to have fallen. The object of it was for Jesus to be delivered alone, for He alone as God could and would burden the sins of the world on His shoulders, as He as God alone can only forgive sins.

The wall is symbolism for those surrounding Him who when Jesus was arrested scattered.

But true, the apostles were emboldened not before first receiving the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

After that, the drive to proclaim Jesus’ message was intense at the risk of their own lives.

So, there is no argument there with the Quran’s claims.

Note: There is more truth behind the scenes of what the normal story is, for behind the scenes are words coded to indicate spiritual truths.

Suffice it to say, that the norm is sufficient knowledge to guide us to truth.

Blessings, AJ
 
The Ten Commandments came after Moses, not before.

Why suppose the peoples of the world had their own gods? They understood of something higher than themselves but could not find a source to receive knowledge from.
So they made up images of things in the heavens, (Sun god), on earth, (Animal images), in the oceans, (Fish images) and or thing under neath the earth. (Demons)

But in these last days, the last days of Jesus, God has revealed Himself in His Son and by which we know God by name, Jesus.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Once in Heaven, we shall be with God.

Blessings, AJ
Yes, I realize all this. I was speaking of the Hebrews, whom God obviously revealed Himself to, though not fully, from the very beginning. I simply used the Ten Commandments as an example. At the coming of Christ, God revealed Himself even more.
 
**MarysGirls, Thanks for your post. I need not reply to all your post, about Jesus. I have only one point about the bible saying that all apostles fled the scene, our Quran doe snot teach that. Our Quran teaches that the apostles were all firm in their faith and they fully supported Jesus. Please see just a few mentions of the apostles in the Quran:

[3:52] ۞ فَلَمَّآ أَحَسَّ عِيسَىٰ مِنۡہُمُ ٱلۡكُفۡرَ قَالَ مَنۡ أَنصَارِىٓ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ‌ۖ قَالَ ٱلۡحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحۡنُ أَنصَارُ ٱللَّهِ ءَامَنَّا بِٱللَّهِ وَٱشۡهَدۡ بِأَنَّا مُسۡلِمُونَ **

[3:53] And when Jesus perceived their disbelief, he said, ‘Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah?’ The disciples answered, ‘We are the helpers of Allah. We have believed in Allah. And bear thou witness that we are obedient.

But how do you know that your Quran is true?

[61:14] يٰۤاَيُّهَا الَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوْا كُوْنُوْۤا اَنْصَارَ اللّٰهِ كَمَا قَالَ عِيْسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ لِلْحَوارِيّٖنَ مَنْ اَنْصَارِىْۤ اِلَى اللّٰهِ‌ؕ قَالَ الْحَـوَارِيُّوْنَ نَحْنُ اَنْصَارُ اللّٰهِ‌ؕ فَاٰمَنَتْ طَّآٮِٕفَةٌ مِّنْۢ بَنِىْۤ اِسْرآءِيْلَ وَكَفَرَتْ طَّآٮِٕفَةٌ ۚ فَاَيَّدْنَا الَّذِيْنَ اٰمَنُوْا عَلٰى عَدُوِّهِمْ فَاَصْبَحُوْا ظٰهِرِيْنَ‏

[61:14] O ye who believe! be helpers of Allah, as said Jesus, son of Mary, to his disciples, ‘Who are my helpers in the cause of Allah.’ The disciples said, ‘We are helpers of Allah.’ So a party of the children of Israel believed, while a party utterly disbelieved. Then We gave power to those who believed against their enemy, and they became victorious. .
 
Aha… no wonder this thread is so quiet…
I’m not sure what the deal is with my last post… should have previewed it, but I was in a hurry. :o
My question is How do you know that your Quran is true?
 
Yes, I realize all this. I was speaking of the Hebrews, whom God obviously revealed Himself to, though not fully, from the very beginning. I simply used the Ten Commandments as an example. At the coming of Christ, God revealed Himself even more.
God revealed Himself in Jesus is correct!

Now, when in the burning bush God reveals Himself to Moses, as " I am" and again I am.

It is note worthy that God repeats Himself twice before He brings things to pass.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jesus said “I am” without any further reference, indicating He was the “I am” that was bringing it to pass.

1st “I am” was as an introduction to Abraham: Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2nd “I am” is at the burning bush: Exo 3:14

3rd “I am” is when Jesus said: Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Note: Quote, “I am Christ; the word “Christ”, is rightly supplied from Mat_24:5; otherwise in the original it is only, “I am”; which the Persic version doubles, reading it, “I am indeed, I am”: he that was promised and expected, the true Messiah; he that was to come:” by John Gills exposition of the entire bible.

Either Jesus is the “I Am” or He is not.

That is up to the individual to believe it or not.

Blessings, AJ
 
God revealed Himself in Jesus is correct!

Now, when in the burning bush God reveals Himself to Moses, as " I am" and again I am.

It is note worthy that God repeats Himself twice before He brings things to pass.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Jesus said “I am” without any further reference, indicating He was the “I am” that was bringing it to pass.

1st “I am” was as an introduction to Abraham: Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2nd “I am” is at the burning bush: Exo 3:14

3rd “I am” is when Jesus said: Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Note: Quote, “I am Christ; the word “Christ”, is rightly supplied from Mat_24:5; otherwise in the original it is only, “I am”; which the Persic version doubles, reading it, “I am indeed, I am”: he that was promised and expected, the true Messiah; he that was to come:” by John Gills exposition of the entire bible.

Either Jesus is the “I Am” or He is not.

That is up to the individual to believe it or not.

Blessings, AJ
I see your point.
However, the Jews didn’t seem to see it this way. John 8:58-59,
“Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.”
If Jesus didn’t mean that He is God, then why did He not say “Before Abraham was, I was.” And why did the Jews take such offense?
 
…”However, the Jews didn’t seem to see it this way. John 8:58-59”…
God works in mysterious ways which He reveals answers as our spirit prospers.

Let’s look at the picture of human history and see how God worked.
  1. In the beginning He created Adam (Mankind) as both male and female.
    Ref: Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The point here is that both male and female inhabit the spirit of God.
  1. In the process of creation the vessel (Adam) became flawed. Ref: Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
The first vessel (Adam) was marred in the hand of the Potter; notice that it was in the hand of the Potter that Adam became marred?

So He made again another vessel, a second Adam, Jesus and it seemed good to the Potter.

The marred vessel became “lost”.
Ref: Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
  1. God makes His presence known to Abram, changed to Abraham, for the first installment of the promise of a Savior of mankind.
Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

Not meant physically, but a spiritual people made up of many nations of people.
  1. God having dedicated a people to receive His words and His laws for the world to witness and as a final result in the Jewish nation.
Purpose was to add degree to sin by the law given to Moses and to rule out the fact that no human could work his or her way to heaven.

Meaning that no human being could ever take credit for it’s own salvation save God.

You may now understand why Jesus could not say He was God because if He did, He would in the flesh be taking credit for mankind’s salvation.

Only God in Spirit, as He is, can be the only God and Savior of mankind.

After Jesus was crucified, sitting at the right hand of God is the same as saying, He is God, for no man can go to the Father except through Jesus.

Back to # 4 above.

God had to blind the nation of Israel to His Christ, for only the Jewish Levi Priests could make animal sacrifices.

Who better than to offer Jesus up than for the designated people (Priests) as a sacrifice for the world?

Yes, the Jews were blinded by the law requirements, that they accused Jesus of blasphemy, and given the reason to offer Him up as a sacrifice, unbeknown to them.

That is why Jesus asked the Father, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

There are four stages to humanity, which you will see in my explanation above:
  • Beginnings/introduction
  • Found with sin
  • Judgment
  • Death/salvation

    Jesus as God complied with all of those 4 things above and now owns the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    Ref: Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    We can now see that only God alone can save, and that He did in Jesus as God reconciling the world back unto Himself.

    2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Final note:

    If God saves us, who are we to say, because of differing beliefs, that our brother or sister is not going to make it, as if we had the right to judge and not God.

    Blessings, AJ
 
Um… I’m sorry… I fail to see your point…
You may now understand why Jesus could not say He was God because if He did, He would in the flesh be taking credit for mankind’s salvation.
No, I don’t. He did say He was God as I pointed out earlier. Yes He was in the flesh, but He still is. God and human at the same time, just as He was then. One person, two natures.
 
Um… I’m sorry… I fail to see your point…

No, I don’t. He did say He was God as I pointed out earlier. Yes He was in the flesh, but He still is. God and human at the same time, just as He was then. One person, two natures.
Jesus never said He was God, but that He and the Father were one. We both know that He was God in the flesh, but why is the question, and that is what I was attempting to answer for you.

Jesus knew only what the Father revealed to Him, for Jesus was to experience the full dept of being human in order to conquer it.

Ref:Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Without Jesus being God, there could be no salvation, for only God could exist in the flesh “yet without sin.”

No other person in the world is without sin.

Blessings, AJ
 
Without Jesus being God, there could be no salvation, for only God could exist in the flesh “yet without sin.”

No other person in the world is without sin.

Blessings, AJ
Hi look, I think you mean only God could exist in the flesh and not be subject to the possibility of sinning? Everyone else can possibly fall from a sinless state?
 
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