Jews' Eternal Fate?

[Iloveu2]

FaithofAbraham

Much of what we read and prophecy especially in the New T. was inserted by the writers to agree with the Old T. This was how the Jews wrote. They always tied in the new with the old. Its called a midrashic style of writing or something like that.

The Jewish translations of the Old T. are different than the Christians. They do not believe and say they are not told in their bible
that the Messiah will come twice. He is to be a man, not
a god. The verses you refer to speak of God’s servant who
is called Israel they say.
They also say that God never required that a person be
sacrificed for sin. That was a pagan custom in the days of the Old T. in Caanan I believe and God hated this custom and destroyed Caanan because they sacrificed their children and burned them.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Faith of Abraham

Did you read what God says to the Jews in my posts above?
Is God lying? Is the bible a lie? If the verses I quoted above aren’t true then how do we know the prophecies about Jesus are true in the Old T. ? Do we pick and choose what to believe?
Without the prophecies about Jesus in the Old T. Christianity falls apart in regards to the Christian Messiah don’t you think?

God tells the Jews in the Old T. that a man cannot be God. Should any man say he is God or claim to be God he is to be killed. God further says : “Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is one” and goes on to tell the Jews that when they saw God or heard God there was no other God with him. The Christian concept of the Trinity was developed many years after the death of Jesus.

The Jews say that the Christians worship a man. I agree to some extent except I call Jesus a man god. He was in some mysterious way both human and divine but in another sense he was a prophet, a man, whose prophecy in the New T. did not come true and wasn’t fulfilled. He failed the Jewish test of a prophet.

Jesus warned of impending destruction and hardship for Jews, and of greatness for nations who accepted him. Jews suffered and Christians and Muslims who say Jesus is Messiah, though have different views of Messiah, rose to greatness.

I sought through God’s Word to find that Jesus is human Messiah who fulfills all the prophecies and accept him that way. Jews can do the same.

If you want to say belief in Jesus doesn’t matter, that anyone can be saved without Jesus, then all this is nonsense anyway. We can throw out the Bible, the Catholic Church, all that, since it isn’t needed.

Right?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I view both these prophecies to be referencing the people/nation of Israel, when referring to servant. Israel is often spoken of as the servant in Isaiah

You probably know most Jews believe that along with the Messiah comes redemption of the Jews and gathering to Israel, end of sin and death, judgment to Gentiles and deliverance of Noahide Law to them, etc.

Jewish Messiah

So yours is a very unique view among Jews if you say Messiah has nothing to do with all that, especially restoration of the Tribes.

 

[Kaninchen]

From Catholic (Christian) and Protestant (Christian) and Jehovas Witnesses (Christian) theological pointview, what would be the Eternal Fate of all Jews, who reject Jesus as Go-d/Son of G-d/Messiah/Man of G-d?

At best, our fate seems to be endlessly patronized.

 

[ralphinal]

At best, our fate seems to be endlessly patronized.

I like this post. I have never understood the attitude many Christians take towards Jewish people. Often times, it is at best rude and at worse un-Christian or anti-semetic. No one can say that all of any group are going to heaven or hell.

As far as the rejection of Christ, what does that mean? Are people expected to accept him if, to them, the case is not compelling? Are you capable of rejecting that which you never accepted? If I remember, there is at least one Jewish poster on here who BECAME jewish due to the study of Scripture.

AS with everyone, Jewish people are judged on how they responded to the grace God grants them during their lives. Some will be in heaven, some will not.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I like this post. I have never understood the attitude many Christians take towards Jewish people. Often times, it is at best rude and at worse un-Christian or anti-semetic. No one can say that all of any group are going to heaven or hell.

As far as the rejection of Christ, what does that mean? Are people expected to accept him if, to them, the case is not compelling? Are you capable of rejecting that which you never accepted? If I remember, there is at least one Jewish poster on here who BECAME jewish due to the study of Scripture.

AS with everyone, Jewish people are judged on how they responded to the grace God grants them during their lives. Some will be in heaven, some will not.

I think so. If a Jew is otherwise observant and faithful to God, and has bad doubts and is afraid to commit idolatry by accepting Trinity, if that is the only way they have seen Jesus, I think God may be easier on them.

As opposed to Jews who are just secular and make fun of the idea of God anyway.

 

[Iloveu2]

Faith of Abraham : your quote :" If you want to say belief in Jesus doesn’t matter, that anyone can be saved without Jesus, then all this is nonsense anyway. We can throw out the Bible, the Catholic Church, all that, since it isn’t needed."

Faith of Abraham : AW…that’s a bit extreme. I know you’re passionate about your faith but lets try to reason together and learn from each other. Its why I like forums and I always remember that we are on the net sometimes only hearing a handful or two of opinions. The sky isn’t falling because we have different opinions. In fact its delightful.

I have Catholic relatives and friends who to the best of my knowledge don’t read the Old T. very much or have a good knowledge of their Jewish roots. You know for many many years the Catholics weren’t allowed to read the bible. Consequently some still may not spend much time on it.

I would like to say that some people aren’t aware that almost everything taught by Jesus is in the Old T. or the Jewish commentaries the Midrash, Talmud etc. Jesus taught love of God and love of neighbor. That’s the first or second commandment in the Old T. It was new to people who had no knowledge of the God of the Jews. The Old T. speaks of charity towards the poor. It speaks of sin and forgiveness. mercy, justice etc. It even says " love thy enemies " which was new to many when Jesus said it.
Jesus was a Jew. He grew up learning the Old T. Possibly some of it was in oral story form not yet compiled into scripture.

Honestly one could be a very good and moral person with just the knowledge contained in the 10 commandments but there is so much more wisdom to be gained from the Old T. It contains almost everything although it is a very complicated book.

So…no…I don’t agree with you that we should throw everything to the wind if Jesus isn’t divine or the Messiah.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

So…no…I don’t agree with you that we should throw everything to the wind if Jesus isn’t divine or the Messiah.

I wasn’t saying you should do that at all. But if Jesus is true and we are told those who reject him will suffer, even only for a little while in Purgatory, then it is better to accept him, right?

As far as I know, nothing we are told in the NT says that unbelievers will be viewed as favorably as believers. All I see in the NT is bad things for the unbelievers. So either you believe the NT or not when it says that.

 

[Valke2]

You probably know most Jews believe that along with the Messiah comes redemption of the Jews and gathering to Israel, end of sin and death, judgment to Gentiles and deliverance of Noahide Law to them, etc.

Jewish Messiah

So yours is a very unique view among Jews if you say Messiah has nothing to do with all that, especially restoration of the Tribes.

How do you get what I posted about Isaiah to what you set forth in your post??

 

[dmelosi]

How do you get what I posted about Isaiah to what you set forth in your post??

I stopped replying to him, because could not get a straight answer from him.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

How do you get what I posted about Isaiah to what you set forth in your post??

You said:

“I view both these prophecies to be referencing the people/nation of Israel, when referring to servant. Israel is often spoken of as the servant in Isaiah”

So in this you see the “Lost Sheep” of Israel being the Servant raising itself up and restoring itself:

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Instead of the Shepherd Messiah gathering them back into the flock as prophecy implies:

Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

And you also see Israel bringing judgment:

Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

Rather than the Messiah of David as prophecy implies:

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I stopped replying to him, because could not get a straight answer from him.

Regarding what, Neturei Karta? What are you looking for me to say, that all of their beliefs represent my own? No I’m not an Orthodox Jew, I’m Muslim.

I said, only the belief that Messiah needs to be the one to reestablish any form of Israel, that people shouldn’t be taking it into their own hands and forcing it.

What part of that isn’t clear?

 

[dmelosi]

Regarding what, Neturei Karta? What are you looking for me to say, that all of their beliefs represent my own? No I’m not an Orthodox Jew, I’m Muslim.

I said, only the belief that Messiah needs to be the one to reestablish any form of Israel, that people shouldn’t be taking it into their own hands and forcing it.

What part of that isn’t clear?

Was on a different post, i asked and could not get a direct answer…this is first one that I have seen.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Was on a different post, i asked and could not get a direct answer…this is first one that I have seen.

Maybe your question was unclear. What was it.

 

[dmelosi]

Maybe your question was unclear. What was it.

It was on this thread posts 9 - 12. I was trying to find out where you were coming from, you did just answer that.

Easier to discuss when you know where everyone stands.
Thank you

 

[ryanoneil]

From Catholic (Christian) and Protestant (Christian) and Jehovas Witnesses (Christian) theological pointview, what would be the Eternal Fate of all Jews, who reject Jesus as Go-d/Son of G-d/Messiah/Man of G-d?

As a Catholic, my guess is God will save a faithful remnant of the Jew as He always has.

Isaiah 10:20-23
*On that day The remnant of Israel, the survivors of the house of Jacob, will no more lean upon him who struck them; But they lean upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God. For though your people, O Israel, were like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant of them will return; their destruction is decreed as overwhelming justice demands. Yes, the destruction he has decreed, the Lord, the GOD of hosts, will carry out within the whole land. *

Romans 9:27-28
*And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the Israelites were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved; for decisively and quickly will the Lord execute sentence upon the earth.” *

We can only PRAY and HOPE that God will have mercy on us all.

Romans 11:32-36
*For God delivered all to disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given him anything that he may be repaid?” For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. *

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ckonrad]

From a Catholic point of view…We don’t know what is in their heart, only God does.

Exactly, I would suggest Karens1234 that you get yourself a catechism of the catholic church (or perhaps explore the documents on vatican.va). God only holds people accountable for rejecting known truth, if a jew knew that christ was who he said he was and still rejected that would be a mortal sin which if left unhealed could cause the eternal death of hell. However many orthodox jews are sincere believers in God and have every desire to know the truth and do good. It is also possible that Christ himself will visit a person personally at the last moment of their lives give them the opportunity to accept his grace and enter heaven, who would not accept that? There are some jewish people that will never accept the truth no matter what, however most human beings( i would like to believe) have a sincere desire to know the truth because we are all created in Gods image and yearn to know him, that is why in the catholic church we believe in baptism by desire and by blood etc.

 

[Valke2]

I do have a sincere desire to know the truth. Perhaps this is why I am Jewish.

 

[Yerusalyim]

According to Catholicism, (see the CCC) Judaism IS a response to the Call of God and Jews can be saved…even the ones that don’t convert. Protestants have a varied view running the gambit from “all jews are damned if they don’t convert to Catholicism” to “most jews are saved because they are God’s chosen” The JW view is, IF YOU’RE NOT JW you don’t get resurrected.

 

[chosen_people]

We Jews have been around more than three millenium

We have watched while you worshipped Christ and Mithras and Osiris and Tammuz and Adonis and Balder and Attis and Dionysus and Hercules and Perseus and Theseus. You have worshipped them all and believed them all to be gods They have all had virgin mothers and they have all had devine fathers. They have all died and they have have all been resurrected.

And the Jews eternal fate? To believe in the one and only God.