Jews' Eternal Fate?

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Hastrman said:
And that was where you were wrong. That which is a son in some way partakes of the nature of its father–cat fathers have cat offspring. Adoption made a person a son just as much as birth did; you need to get away from a materialistic understanding of these things.
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Jesus doesn’t have the exact same nature as God, if that’s what you are saying. If he did then he could never be tempted to sin as we are. He could have sinned but didn’t, he had to fight it like we do. Whereas God can’t be tempted to sin at all. Jesus cried to God to save him, God doesn’t need to cry to anyone to save Him. Etc.

Jesus had God’s Spirit, sure, but as a human prophet, not as a God. So he is like God to us as Moses was, but he isn’t God.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Jesus doesn’t have the exact same nature as God, if that’s what you are saying. If he did then he could never be tempted to sin as we are. He could have sinned but didn’t, he had to fight it like we do. Whereas God can’t be tempted to sin at all. Jesus cried to God to save him, God doesn’t need to cry to anyone to save Him. Etc.

Jesus had God’s Spirit, sure, but as a human prophet, not as a God. So he is like God to us as Moses was, but he isn’t God.
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Except that he said he was God, oh so many times; everyone else said he said he was.

There is no mention of him having to fight temptation. I sort of got the impression, in the temptation in the desert, that he was playing with Lucifer. His every reply to the devil’s suggestions is basically, “Nice try, Peacock feathers. Here’s why not.”

He did not cry to God to save him, he cried out, “Why have you abandoned me?” And that makes sense if the whole point is killing God himself as one forgotten of God. He took on our sin, and therefore was abandoned by God, but was still God, so could raise himself.
 
Hastrman said:
Except that he said he was God, oh so many times; everyone else said he said he was.

There is no mention of him having to fight temptation. I sort of got the impression, in the temptation in the desert, that he was playing with Lucifer. His every reply to the devil’s suggestions is basically, “Nice try, Peacock feathers. Here’s why not.”
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Being tempted as we are means he had to fight it like we do:

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hastrman said:
He did not cry to God to save him, he cried out, “Why have you abandoned me?” And that makes sense if the whole point is killing God himself as one forgotten of God. He took on our sin, and therefore was abandoned by God, but was still God, so could raise himself.
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Hebrews 5:6-7 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Read Hebrews it clears up a lot of errors in Christian doctrine. Like the one that God abandoned Himself somehow…:hypno:
 
Valke2 said:
I believe he is stating what he thinks the Messiah’s true role is, as opposed to what Jews think. Certianly Jews don’t believe the Messiah or anyone else is needed to take our prayers to God or that the Messiah will somehow atone for our sins.

We already have a method to do that and in any event, the Temple will be rebuilt when he gets here and quite possibly we will reinstitute sacrifices for atonement.
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Hi Valke2. It’s always helpful when you show up.

Here’s my quetion. faithofabraham said: “First you make the error of most Christians of mashing their idea of the Son in with the Father Jehovah of Exodus … .”

I’ve never heard any Jewish person refer to God as “Jehovah.” Jehovah’s Wirnesses do so (constantly) but among Jews, is this a normal usage?
 
catharina said:
Hi Valke2. It’s always helpful when you show up.

Here’s my quetion. faithofabraham said: “First you make the error of most Christians of mashing their idea of the Son in with the Father Jehovah of Exodus … .”

I’ve never heard any Jewish person refer to God as “Jehovah.” Jehovah’s Wirnesses do so (constantly) but among Jews, is this a normal usage?
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No. Jews don’t use that word for God. That’s an attempt to pronounce YHWH, which we don’t do.
 
Valke2 said:
No. Jews don’t use that word for God. That’s an attempt to pronounce YHWH, which we don’t do.
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Thank you, Expert Wirness! I know I’ve never heard it said among Jewish relatives and friends or seen it in print or even heard it referenced. The usage here hit my brain with dissonance.
 
Valke2 said:
I don’t think there is any culpability in the examples we are using. To be clear, I believe that your epiphany was just as valid as mine. I believe Judaism and Christianity and Islam are structures that one uses to access God. I don’t necessarily believe one structure is universally more true than the other. But for me, Judaism is the best way to access the Divine.
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I can mostly agree with that, although I will with-hold where I disagree for later 😉
 
catharina said:
Hi Valke2. It’s always helpful when you show up.

Here’s my quetion. faithofabraham said: “First you make the error of most Christians of mashing their idea of the Son in with the Father Jehovah of Exodus … .”

I’ve never heard any Jewish person refer to God as “Jehovah.” Jehovah’s Wirnesses do so (constantly) but among Jews, is this a normal usage?
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I don’t normally call God Jehovah either, but it refers to the God of the OT. Seems when it comes to that, Christians shift freely back and forth between the Father and Son to make it fit with Trinity.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
I don’t normally call God Jehovah either, but it refers to the God of the OT. Seems when it comes to that, Christians shift freely back and forth between the Father and Son to make it fit with Trinity.
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I’ve never seen a Christian use Jehovah for Jesus. I am not saying that it has never happened, but I have never seen it. References?
 
ralphinal said:
I’ve never seen a Christian use Jehovah for Jesus. I am not saying that it has never happened, but I have never seen it. References?
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They say I AM is Jesus, rather than Father God of Israel talking.
 
Personally, I’m not overly concerned with the different names used for God. I believe the more names we use, the better, as it stops us from limiting or defining the Divine.
 
ralphinal said:
Jesus said that. We were quoting him.
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Ok, so you have:

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

And the Father again;

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

But then Christians say Jesus is the Father here:

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

So this is a problem.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Ok, so you have:

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

And the Father again;

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

But then Christians say Jesus is the Father here:

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

So this is a problem.
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Jesus is NOT saying that he is the Father, but that he was with the Father from the beginning of time. He and the Father are one. He is the Word made flesh, who was with God and WAS God at the dawn of Creation. He said that “I Am” to show that he was God.
 
ralphinal said:
Jesus is NOT saying that he is the Father, but that he was with the Father from the beginning of time. He and the Father are one. He is the Word made flesh, who was with God and WAS God at the dawn of Creation. He said that “I Am” to show that he was God.
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The Father of Israel is talking in Exodus, and Jesus clearly says his Father is the Father of us all, so they are the same Father.

But with the I AM interpretation you are trying to say that suddenly Jesus becomes the Father talking in Exodus which doesn’t add up.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
The Father of Israel is talking in Exodus, and Jesus clearly says his Father is the Father of us all, so they are the same Father.

But with the I AM interpretation you are trying to say that suddenly Jesus becomes the Father talking in Exodus which doesn’t add up.
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Haven’t we discussed this already? This gets into the Trinity. You deny the Trinity. I do not. Jesus was one with the Father and He IS God. I see no conflict. You see conflict because you do not accept the Divinity of Christ.
 
ralphinal said:
Haven’t we discussed this already? This gets into the Trinity. You deny the Trinity. I do not. Jesus was one with the Father and He IS God. I see no conflict. You see conflict because you do not accept the Divinity of Christ.
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You are saying that whenever the Father is talking Jesus is talking too, like here:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So if Jesus is talking as the Father in Exodus, we should also assume Jesus also said that to himself. That’s what you are saying.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
You are saying that whenever the Father is talking Jesus is talking too, like here:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

So if Jesus is talking as the Father in Exodus, we should also assume Jesus also said that to himself. That’s what you are saying.
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That is not even close to what I am saying. Not even close. Please read the Anathasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Etneral and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
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So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity is Trinity, and the Trinity is Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.
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Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.
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God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.
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From the New Advent site
newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm
 
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