John Kasich Thread

[Bruised_Reed]

I think the reason advice like this is problematic, no matter how well intentioned or practical, is that you by focusing on a woman to changing her behavior is kind of suggesting that someone else should be raped instead.

“Don’t go to a party where there is drinking.” Well, people are going to go to parties. What if all the girls or women stayed home?. First, LOL, like that will happen. Secondly, guess where the guys will go? They will go where the women are. Stay with me.

“Don’t drink.” I’ve read too many accounts from young women who were not drinking. They were Christians, sometimes on mission trips and were raped by one of the men on the same mission. And when some of the women reported the raped to someone in charge their assaults were minimized, the women were chastised for being immodest or otherwise doing something wrong, and/or shunned.

What Kasich said wasn’t wrong but it wasn’t particularly helpful either. Not drinking won’t stop women from being raped. Dressing modestly, walking in pairs etc.may minimize the risk but it’s still there. What need to happen is that rapists need to be held accountable, charged and convicted and punished with more than a slap on the wrist. Do any of you remember the news accounts following the trial of the Steubenville rapists? The commentators were lamenting how this conviction would damage the futures the the “men” without ever acknowledging how the rape was affecting and would continue to affect the victim. I could not believe how the media got it so wrong. The culture, society at large, needs to stop thinking that advice like “Don’t get drunk” is changing anything.

 

[JD1789]

I think the reason advice like this is problematic, no matter how well intentioned or practical, is that you by focusing on a woman to changing her behavior is kind of suggesting that someone else should be raped instead.

“Don’t go to a party where there is drinking.” Well, people are going to go to parties. What if all the girls or women stayed home?. First, LOL, like that will happen. Secondly, guess where the guys will go? They will go where the women are. Stay with me.

“Don’t drink.” I’ve read too many accounts from young women who were not drinking. They were Christians, sometimes on mission trips and were raped by one of the men on the same mission. And when some of the women reported the raped to someone in charge their assaults were minimized, the women were chastised for being immodest or otherwise doing something wrong, and/or shunned.

What Kasich said wasn’t wrong but it wasn’t particularly helpful either. Not drinking won’t stop women from being raped. Dressing modestly, walking in pairs etc.may minimize the risk but it’s still there. What need to happen is that rapists need to be held accountable, charged and convicted and punished with more than a slap on the wrist. Do any of you remember the news accounts following the trial of the Steubenville rapists? The commentators were lamenting how this conviction would damage the futures the the “men” without ever acknowledging how the rape was affecting and would continue to affect the victim. I could not believe how the media got it so wrong. The culture, society at large, needs to stop thinking that advice like “Don’t get drunk” is changing anything.

I suppose you are also against telling people to not drink and drive because that’s never going to happen, people will do it anyway. It’s not the drinking that the largest issue, it’s the drinking in bad places.

 

[Jim91]

This is good advice.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I suppose you are also against telling people to not drink and drive because that’s never going to happen, people will do it anyway. It’s not the drinking that the largest issue, it’s the drinking in bad places.

Wrong comparison. Drinking and driving is a crime. Sexual assault is a crime. I’m in favor of telling people not to drink and drive. I’m also in favor of telling people not to be physically or sexually violent against anyone.

Would you tell a toddler not to drink so he isn’t molested? Duh, of course not. So why do we continue to focus on telling women to change their behavior so they aren’t assaulted? April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. On college campuses the focus is sexual assault against college students but there is a wider campaign to raise awareness and change the culture that allows sexual assault to be dismissed like a dirty little secret.

 

[Theo520]

I think the reason advice like this is problematic, no matter how well intentioned or practical, is that you by focusing on a woman to changing her behavior is kind of suggesting that someone else should be raped instead.

“Don’t go to a party where there is drinking.” Well, people are going to go to parties. What if all the girls or women stayed home?. First, LOL, like that will happen. Secondly, guess where the guys will go? They will go where the women are. Stay with me.

“Don’t drink.” I’ve read too many accounts from young women who were not drinking. They were Christians, sometimes on mission trips and were raped by one of the men on the same mission. And when some of the women reported the raped to someone in charge their assaults were minimized, the women were chastised for being immodest or otherwise doing something wrong, and/or shunned.

What Kasich said wasn’t wrong but it wasn’t particularly helpful either. Not drinking won’t stop women from being raped. Dressing modestly, walking in pairs etc.may minimize the risk but it’s still there. What need to happen is that rapists need to be held accountable, charged and convicted and punished with more than a slap on the wrist. Do any of you remember the news accounts following the trial of the Steubenville rapists? The commentators were lamenting how this conviction would damage the futures the the “men” without ever acknowledging how the rape was affecting and would continue to affect the victim. I could not believe how the media got it so wrong. The culture, society at large, needs to stop thinking that advice like “Don’t get drunk” is changing anything.

you are confusing solid prevention advice with commentary after a rape. Telling your children to look both ways before crossing a street doesn’t mean a car that hits a pedestrian is any less guilty.

The girl didn’t ask about treatment after a rape.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

you are confusing solid prevention advice with commentary after a rape. Telling your children to look both ways before crossing a street doesn’t mean a car that hits a pedestrian is any less guilty.

The girl didn’t ask about treatment after a rape.

No, I’m not confusing those two things. I haven’t mentioned advocacy or services for victims.

What I’m talking about is prevention. The main person who can prevent rape is the rapist who makes a choice to violate another human being.

 

[Good_Tidings]

I think the reason advice like this is problematic, no matter how well intentioned or practical, is that you by focusing on a woman to changing her behavior is kind of suggesting that someone else should be raped instead.

“Don’t go to a party where there is drinking.” Well, people are going to go to parties. What if all the girls or women stayed home?. First, LOL, like that will happen. Secondly, guess where the guys will go? They will go where the women are. Stay with me.

“Don’t drink.” I’ve read too many accounts from young women who were not drinking. They were Christians, sometimes on mission trips and were raped by one of the men on the same mission. And when some of the women reported the raped to someone in charge their assaults were minimized, the women were chastised for being immodest or otherwise doing something wrong, and/or shunned.

What Kasich said wasn’t wrong but it wasn’t particularly helpful either. Not drinking won’t stop women from being raped. Dressing modestly, walking in pairs etc.may minimize the risk but it’s still there. What need to happen is that rapists need to be held accountable, charged and convicted and punished with more than a slap on the wrist. Do any of you remember the news accounts following the trial of the Steubenville rapists? The commentators were lamenting how this conviction would damage the futures the the “men” without ever acknowledging how the rape was affecting and would continue to affect the victim. I could not believe how the media got it so wrong. The culture, society at large, needs to stop thinking that advice like “Don’t get drunk” is changing anything.

I couldn’t agree more. Thanks for posting.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Wrong comparison. Drinking and driving is a crime. Sexual assault is a crime. I’m in favor of telling people not to drink and drive. I’m also in favor of telling people not to be physically or sexually violent against anyone.

Would you tell a toddler not to drink so he isn’t molested? Duh, of course not. So why do we continue to focus on telling women to change their behavior so they aren’t assaulted? April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. On college campuses the focus is sexual assault against college students but there is a wider campaign to raise awareness and change the culture that allows sexual assault to be dismissed like a dirty little secret.

Did you just compare women to toddlers?

I do tell my kids not to talk to strangers or to not be alone with adults at school/scouts/etc.

This does not mean that I am minimizing molestors. It means I care enough about my kids to teach them how to avoid problematic situations that leave them vulnerable.

In a similar way it is totally appropriate to tell women to avoid situations that leave them vulnerable.

 

[Jon_S_1]

No, I’m not confusing those two things. I haven’t mentioned advocacy or services for victims.

What I’m talking about is prevention. The main person who can prevent rape is the rapist who makes a choice to violate another human being.

This is like saying,

"The main person that can prevent gang shootings is the gang member, so stop telling people to not walk alone down gang infested streets because they might be shot. It blames them when the gangsters are really to blame.

 

[Theo520]

No, I’m not confusing those two things. I haven’t mentioned advocacy or services for victims.

What I’m talking about is prevention. The main person who can prevent rape is the rapist who makes a choice to violate another human being.

So do you have a psychological test we can use to identify and segregate future rapists? Minority Report was just a movie, we don’t have that technology.

Until you can reliable flag future rapists for isolation and treatment, girls should be advised to reduce their risk profile.

 

[Trident_H]

I think the reason advice like this is problematic, no matter how well intentioned or practical, is that you by focusing on a woman to changing her behavior is kind of suggesting that someone else should be raped instead.

“Don’t go to a party where there is drinking.” Well, people are going to go to parties. What if all the girls or women stayed home?. First, LOL, like that will happen. Secondly, guess where the guys will go? They will go where the women are. Stay with me.

“Don’t drink.” I’ve read too many accounts from young women who were not drinking. They were Christians, sometimes on mission trips and were raped by one of the men on the same mission. And when some of the women reported the raped to someone in charge their assaults were minimized, the women were chastised for being immodest or otherwise doing something wrong, and/or shunned.

What Kasich said wasn’t wrong but it wasn’t particularly helpful either. Not drinking won’t stop women from being raped. Dressing modestly, walking in pairs etc.may minimize the risk but it’s still there. What need to happen is that rapists need to be held accountable, charged and convicted and punished with more than a slap on the wrist. Do any of you remember the news accounts following the trial of the Steubenville rapists? The commentators were lamenting how this conviction would damage the futures the the “men” without ever acknowledging how the rape was affecting and would continue to affect the victim. I could not believe how the media got it so wrong. The culture, society at large, needs to stop thinking that advice like “Don’t get drunk” is changing anything.

I know what you’re saying. And since I usually admire your opinions I took a while to think this through. I’ve looked at it sideways. And I’ve looked at it backwards.

But I’ve still got a problem with it. I mean I agree with what you say about consequences. Actually I’d go to the wall with that. You have no idea. But still.

The thing is the girl wanted advice on how to deal with the problem. Now usually the only real advice someone can give is how the person can protect themselves. There’s no guaranteed way to change the mind of a would-be rapist with alcohol clouding his judgment already. There’s no for sure way to prevent everything someone would do to you if they had the chance. They’re clearly not listening.

The only way to have a strong chance is to change your own habits. Like telling a rich guy to not park his fancy car in a shady part of town if he doesn’t want it stolen. It doesn’t mean we’re Ok with theft. It just means we’re trying to be realistic.

Putting temptation into the path of someone with a low threshold of resistance is a bad idea. It’s too bad that people with low resistance exist. It’s too bad they’re so selfish and it’s too bad we can’t control them somehow ahead of time. But we really can’t. So the next best thing is to control what you can. And that’s yourself.

And no, it’s not the same as blaming the victim. It’s not the same at all. I’m still gonna want the police to find that guy’s car and put the thief in jail. I’m still going to want to have a better than average chance of not losing my own car that way (if I ever get one). But I’m not going to ever tell someone it’s their right to park wherever they want so they should just go ahead and do that. That’s not the real world. That’s an ideal we can’t quite reach just yet.

And no, I’m not Ok with blaming a woman for dressing wrong and then getting raped in a market. But I am going to ask her why she decided to wear a bikini to a high crime neighborhood. I mean we can’t just use ideals to make real life go away. It’s not that simple.

P.S. I’m sorry on behalf of guys everywhere that this is even a thing. I mean I’m really sorry.

Also. I think guys who rape girls should have their ****s cut off. Maybe that’s what you wanted Kasich to say?

 

[queenofheartscv]

I know what you’re saying. And since I usually admire your opinions I took a while to think this through. I’ve looked at it sideways. And I’ve looked at it backwards.

But I’ve still got a problem with it. I mean I agree with what you say about consequences. Actually I’d go to the wall with that. You have no idea. But still.

The thing is the girl wanted advice on how to deal with the problem. Now usually the only real advice someone can give is how the person can protect themselves. There’s no guaranteed way to change the mind of a would-be rapist with alcohol clouding his judgment already. There’s no for sure way to prevent everything someone would do to you if they had the chance. They’re clearly not listening.

The only way to have a strong chance is to change your own habits. Like telling a rich guy to not park his fancy car in a shady part of town if he doesn’t want it stolen. It doesn’t mean we’re Ok with theft. It just means we’re trying to be realistic.

Putting temptation into the path of someone with a low threshold of resistance is a bad idea. It’s too bad that people with low resistance exist. It’s too bad they’re so selfish and it’s too bad we can’t control them somehow ahead of time. But we really can’t. So the next best thing is to control what you can. And that’s yourself.

And no, it’s not the same as blaming the victim. It’s not the same at all. I’m still gonna want the police to find that guy’s car and put the thief in jail. I’m still going to want to have a better than average chance of not losing my own car that way (if I ever get one). But I’m not going to ever tell someone it’s their right to park wherever they want so they should just go ahead and do that. That’s not the real world. That’s an ideal we can’t quite reach just yet.

And no, I’m not Ok with blaming a woman for dressing wrong and then getting raped in a market. But I am going to ask her why she decided to wear a bikini to a high crime neighborhood. I mean we can’t just use ideals to make real life go away. It’s not that simple.

P.S. I’m sorry on behalf of guys everywhere that this is even a thing. I mean I’m really sorry.

Also. I think guys who rape girls should have their ****s cut off. Maybe that’s what you wanted Kasich to say?

Well put!

 

[signit]

And no, I’m not Ok with blaming a woman for dressing wrong and then getting raped in a market. But I am going to ask her why she decided to wear a bikini to a high crime neighborhood. I mean we can’t just use ideals to make real life go away. It’s not that simple.

Another one agreeing with Kasich.

Not going to these parties is a good idea, even for young men. You don’t want to know about the stuff that goes on.

Taken by itself, his comment wasn’t “blaming the victim” or suggesting that what the perpetrators do is right in any way.

 

[Vanny]

I think it’s great advice. Along with

1. If you go out walking/jogging at night, go with a friend.
2. When you go to x-mart at night park your car under a light.
3. When walking to your car have your keys in hand and be aware of your surroundings.
4. If someone tries to grab you, kick, scream, and yell.

It isn’t about absolving the rapists or blaming the victim. It is about taking percautions.

This. It’s about common sense. When I was a young single woman living in a large city, I took precautions- it’s smart to do so! Don’t we lock our doors at night, and do other things to make our homes intruder-proof?
I tell my sons to be careful, keep their car doors locked, don’t pick up strangers.
If I had had daughters, I would have given them that exact advice. That is in no way letting would be rapists or molesters off the hook.
I’ve been telling my college aged sons to stay away from parties that have alcohol, drugs ect.
I think it’s good advice for everyone, male or female.

 

[Peter_J]

A reminder that “moderate” John Kasich is as aggressively terrible as the other two candidates in the Republican clown car:

*As *aggressively terrible? What about worse? Surely stuff like this doesn’t rise to the level of what Kasich said.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Wrong comparison. Drinking and driving is a crime. Sexual assault is a crime. I’m in favor of telling people not to drink and drive. I’m also in favor of telling people not to be physically or sexually violent against anyone.

Would you tell a toddler not to drink so he isn’t molested? Duh, of course not. So why do we continue to focus on telling women to change their behavior so they aren’t assaulted? April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. On college campuses the focus is sexual assault against college students but there is a wider campaign to raise awareness and change the culture that allows sexual assault to be dismissed like a dirty little secret.

Do you want to be safe, or do you want to be “right” and “justitifed?”

It’s like the kid in school who intentionally annoyed and bothered other students until one day a child had enough slapped the annoying kid. My advice to the annoying kid would be “don’t intentionally make an annoyance of yourself and you are less likely to get slapped by your peers.” That doesn’t make a physical attack right, but it just make good sense.

Anyone who loves their daughters would do the same thing. We live in the valley of tears. This world is fallen, and his advice is not a cure all, but common sense.

Anyone who tells their daughters “you should be able to do whatever you want, because rape and sexual assault is the fault of men” may be correct in theory, but that advice falls on its face in terms of practicality, and anyone who thinks that way doesn’t actually love their daughters to begin with. They simply enjoy using their children to make some sort of ideological point.

Some people look for drama and heartache for no reason, and this topic is proof. My advice is to stop being a drama-queen, stop whining about Kasich perpetuating the circle of violence against women, and get something worthwhile to concern yourself with.

 

[Siegehammer]

Replies to this thread are perfect examples of the perpetuation of rape culture. With one in six women being sexually assaulted in their lives, never mind the fact that many women are sexually assaulted multiple times in their lives, rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women’s daily movements, like attending a party where there’s alcohol.

Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you’re alone, if you’re with a stranger, if you’re in a group, if you’re in a group of strangers, if it’s dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you’re carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you’re wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn’t follow all the rules it’s your fault.

Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to “learn common sense” or “be more responsible” or “be aware of risks” or “avoid these places” or “don’t dress this way,” all the while failing to admonish men to not rape.

Remarks like the ones Kasich made perpetuate rape culture, making him a dangerous individual to have anywhere near the Oval Office.

 

[Maximilan_Kolbe]

Replies to this thread are perfect examples of the perpetuation of rape culture. With one in six women being sexually assaulted in their lives, never mind the fact that many women are sexually assaulted multiple times in their lives, rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women’s daily movements, like attending a party where there’s alcohol.

Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you’re alone, if you’re with a stranger, if you’re in a group, if you’re in a group of strangers, if it’s dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you’re carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you’re wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn’t follow all the rules it’s your fault.

Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to “learn common sense” or “be more responsible” or “be aware of risks” or “avoid these places” or “don’t dress this way,” all the while failing to admonish men to not rape.

Remarks like the ones Kasich made perpetuate rape culture, making him a dangerous individual to have anywhere near the Oval Office.

No one else of consequence agrees with you, but so be it. Enjoy wallowing in your drama while the rest of the world concerns itself with ways to actually keep women safe.

 

[Theo520]

I’m shocked at the lack of comprehension on what has been posted.

• People are giving advice to prevent rape to potential victims, so they don’t become victims.
• Actual victims obviously need the full support of our rule of law, so that rapists are punished and the message is sent to ‘would be’ rapists that they too will be punished.

From your other comments I think you may be confusing ‘rape culture’ with basic biology and our drive to procreate. The only way to contain your version of rape culture would likely be some form of mass castration. Is that what you are angling for?

Replies to this thread are perfect examples of the perpetuation of rape culture. With one in six women being sexually assaulted in their lives, never mind the fact that many women are sexually assaulted multiple times in their lives, rape culture is the way in which the constant threat of sexual assault affects women’s daily movements, like attending a party where there’s alcohol.

Rape culture is telling girls and women to be careful about what you wear, how you wear it, how you carry yourself, where you walk, when you walk there, with whom you walk, whom you trust, what you do, where you do it, with whom you do it, what you drink, how much you drink, whether you make eye contact, if you’re alone, if you’re with a stranger, if you’re in a group, if you’re in a group of strangers, if it’s dark, if the area is unfamiliar, if you’re carrying something, how you carry it, what kind of shoes you’re wearing in case you have to run, what kind of purse you carry, what jewelry you wear, what time it is, what street it is, what environment it is, how many people you sleep with, what kind of people you sleep with, who your friends are, to whom you give your number, to always be alert always pay attention always watch your back always be aware of your surroundings and never let your guard down for a moment lest you be sexually assaulted and if you are and didn’t follow all the rules it’s your fault.

Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to “learn common sense” or “be more responsible” or “be aware of risks” or “avoid these places” or “don’t dress this way,” all the while failing to admonish men to not rape.

Remarks like the ones Kasich made perpetuate rape culture, making him a dangerous individual to have anywhere near the Oval Office.

 

[Siegehammer]

Yesterday, during an interview with CNN’s Dana Bash, Kasich was confused about why his comments last week were problematic:

Pressed about whether he understood why a lot of people saw that as victim-blaming, Kasich said that he did not. “Actually, I don’t know how anybody would take it that way.”

“I don’t care if there’s a party with alcohol. I’m just saying be careful! That’s what I would tell my daughters,” he added, continuing to embrace the disproved myth that that there is a direct link between rape and alcohol consumption.

The Ohio Governor then boasted that he had been the leader in trying to punish sexual assaults. “When our folks first sat down with the colleges and universities, I have a lady attorney who sort of led this effort for me. They didn’t quite know what do and I said, I don’t care about what they know or don’t know — we are going to have a system in place to make sure that the women on our college campus are protected and if something would happen to them, that justice can be done.”

Kasich then urged Bash to drop the subject: “Let’s go on,” he told her.

There are about two dozen different reasons that Kasich’s “advice” is undiluted garbage, but perhaps the most obvious is this: Telling women how to avoid rape, instead of telling men not to rape, is straight-up rape culture garbage.

Be careful, Kasich says. As if “carelessness” is why women get raped.

Here’s the thing about rapists: They rape people. They rape people who are strong and people who are weak, people who are knowledgeable and people who are ignorant, people who fight back and people who submit just to get it over with, people who are virgins and people who are not, who rich and people who are poor, people who are tall and people who are short, people who are fat and people who are thin, people who are conscious and people who are incapacitated, people of every race and shape and size and ability and circumstance.

The only thing that the victim of every rapist shares in common is the bad luck of being in the presence of a rapist.

Rapists are determined to rape. And if this woman doesn’t go to a party “where there’s a lot of alcohol” and (more importantly) a rapist, another woman would. It doesn’t make that woman any more responsible for being raped. And if no women at all went to that party, that rapist would find another way to obtain his victims.

Victim-blaming is based on the damnably notion that people (and women in particular) allow themselves to be victimized by virtue of carelessness or stupidity, and we need to be warned and educated and lectured and hectored and cajoled and shamed into never being victims.

No.

Our culture creates rapists—and they create victims. No one has ever been a victim of rape, until they had the horrendous luck of being in the presence of a rapist.

Enough victim blaming. Enough.

That Kasich doesn’t agree we’ve had quite enough of this reprehensible rhetoric already is just another one of many reasons that no one should cast another vote for him ever again.