Josephus on survival of crucified persons

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Josephus says:
"I was sent by Titus Caesar with Ceralius and a thousand riders to a certain town by the name of Thecoa to find out whether a camp could be set up at this place. On my return I saw many prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized three of them as my former companions. I was inwardly very sad about this and went with tears in my eyes to Titus and told him about them. He at once gave the order that they should be taken down and given the best treatment so they could get better. However two of them died while being attended to by the doctor; the third recovered.”
tombofjesus.com/core/majorplayers/crucifixion/crucifixion-p1.htm

The above quote from Josephus makes possible Jesus’ survival from death on Cross. Any comments, please.

Thanks

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Hi

Josephus says:
"I was sent by Titus Caesar with Ceralius and a thousand riders to a certain town by the name of Thecoa to find out whether a camp could be set up at this place. On my return I saw many prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized three of them as my former companions. I was inwardly very sad about this and went with tears in my eyes to Titus and told him about them. He at once gave the order that they should be taken down and given the best treatment so they could get better. However two of them died while being attended to by the doctor; the third recovered.”
tombofjesus.com/core/majorplayers/crucifixion/crucifixion-p1.htm

The above quote from Josephus makes possible Jesus’ survival from death on Cross. Any comments, please.

Thanks

The best treatment, and still 2 out of 3 died.

There is no chance our Lord got the best treatment. Neither could He obtain it by Himself, nor could the Apostles obtain it for Him.

Plus you have that lance thrust into His side to test that he was dead (recorded by an eyewitness) to explain.

 

[thistle]

Hi

Josephus says:
"I was sent by Titus Caesar with Ceralius and a thousand riders to a certain town by the name of Thecoa to find out whether a camp could be set up at this place. On my return I saw many prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized three of them as my former companions. I was inwardly very sad about this and went with tears in my eyes to Titus and told him about them. He at once gave the order that they should be taken down and given the best treatment so they could get better. However two of them died while being attended to by the doctor; the third recovered.”
tombofjesus.com/core/majorplayers/crucifixion/crucifixion-p1.htm

The above quote from Josephus makes possible Jesus’ survival from death on Cross. Any comments, please.

Thanks

Still trying hard to prove that Jesus survived and went to India!!
He didn’t. He died on the Cross and after three days arose from the tomb.
Believe it!! Your salvation depends on this!

 

[Hesychios]

The reason crucifixion was such a horrible torturous death, is because it rips the diaphragm and interior tissues apart.

Very painful, and once accomplished there is no hope for recovery. It would be literally impossible to breathe, for one thing. The living body is hung in an awkward position which will not permit relief to the trunk as the body weight drags the person down.

Feeling this, the crucified person will struggle against this pain, trying to pull himself up with arms strength, but this soon fails. A foothold can be placed at the lower end but is too high to permit standing, the legs are bent and the victim struggles against the pain of flexing these to try and relieve the pain in the trunk. It can be like trying to climb countless stairs hour after hour, until there is no strength left. Internal hemorrhages and the inability to breathe kill the victim.

The reason for the foothold then, is to prolong the agony. It cannot be a peaceful scene; it would be one of writhing in agony accompanied by screams (as long as they are able), blood, delirium and excrement.

When the police are ready to complete the days work they examine the victim to see if they can be taken down. If still struggling, they will bust the lower legs of the victim making it impossible to resist the pain in the interior, and the person dies in a massive internal rupture.

What is interesting about the crucifixion of Jesus, is that He apparently did not struggle against the pain indefinitely, but accepted it, allowing it to kill Him. For the two thieves were still struggling and had their legs broken but Jesus, known to be a healthy and strong man who walked all over the countryside was already dead. This should be recognized as proof that he was dead, because the soldiers verified that His body was already hanging limp, and that is not survivable. Christian of the first few centuries would have been very familiar with the significance of that fact in the accounts, but we need it explained to us, because we have never witnessed the cruel reality of such a death.

Michael

http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/littlecross.gif

 

[ralphinal]

Besides, if Jesus never died, someone lied. The Apostles and other followers, including his mother Mary, all said that he died and rose again. The Romans involved all said that he died. The Jewish authorities said he died. Jesus said that he would die. God said that he died. So, who was lying?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

John 19:34
Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

short answer, Joesephus’s friends did not recieve a spear into their hearts,

Apparently to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. The 34th verse of the 19th chapter of the Gospel according to St. John reports: “And immediately there came out blood and water.” That is, there was an escape of water fluid from the sac surrounding the heart, giving postmortem evidence that Our Lord died not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure (a broken heart) due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.

geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/5207/indexdr.html

Josephus Antiquities 18.3.3 - first quoted specifically by Eusebius in the fourth century - has come down to us as follows:

Church Fathers record his death,

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

“For in the 18th book of his Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus bears witness to John as having been a Baptist, and as promising purification to those who underwent the rite. Now this writer, although not believing in Jesus as the Christ, in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, whereas he ought to have said that the conspiracy against Jesus was the cause of these calamities befalling the people, since they put to death Christ, who was a prophet, says nevertheless-being, although against his will, not far from the truth-that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus (called Christ),-the Jews having put him to death, although he was a man most distinguished for his justice. Paul, a genuine disciple of Jesus, says that he regarded this James as a brother of the Lord, not so much on account of their relationship by blood, or of their being brought up together, as because of his virtue and doctrine” (Origen, Against Celsus, 1:47)

Josephus himself, speaks of his death,

1. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm

The death of Christ is mentioned by the Roman historians Cornelius Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, and Suetonius, by non-Roman historians Thallus and Phlegon, by the satirist Lucian of Samosata, by the Jewish Talmud.

The New Testament records his death too.

A person wrapped up in grave clothes and thrown into a grave is in no way considered recieving medical care.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Mara Bar-Serapion, a stoic philosopher from Syria, wrote this letter to his son from prison sometime after 70 AD:

What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. **What advantage did the Jews gain from their executing their wise king? **It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: The Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given. ( Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, 26.2. )

 

[dessert]

If Jesus had lived on in the body he would have stayed more with his apostles and not left His mother, not gone into hiding. There would be more written about Him and witnesses to His works.
Josephus if you believe he knew so much and was so attentive to the goings on would have even written more don’t you think?
Others would have written more and the government would have wanted to kill Him again, or cut off His head or somesuch prison thing as the many martyrs end came to.
They are just discovering things about the Jesus family tomb but can’t conclude positively.

 

[dessert]

Hi

Josephus says:
"I was sent by Titus Caesar with Ceralius and a thousand riders to a certain town by the name of Thecoa to find out whether a camp could be set up at this place. On my return I saw many prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized three of them as my former companions. I was inwardly very sad about this and went with tears in my eyes to Titus and told him about them. He at once gave the order that they should be taken down and given the best treatment so they could get better. However two of them died while being attended to by the doctor; the third recovered.”
tombofjesus.com/core/majorplayers/crucifixion/crucifixion-p1.htm

The above quote from Josephus makes possible Jesus’ survival from death on Cross. Any comments, please.

Thanks

What does this mean “former companions” who was Josephus anyway? Was he a thief and a crook or a reliable person or was he like judas or a member of the family? Was he a good friend of Jesus? Do you know more about him?

 

[txsoldier94]

What does this mean “former companions” who was Josephus anyway? Was he a thief and a crook or a reliable person or was he like judas or a member of the family? Was he a good friend of Jesus? Do you know more about him?

From the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Josephus:

The first work of Josephus was the “Jewish War” (Peri tou Ioudaikou polemou) in seven books. This is mainly based on his memoranda made during the war of independence (66-73), on the memoirs of Vespasian, and on letters of King Agrippa. While his story of warlike events is reliable, the account of his own doings is strongly tinctured with foolish self-adulation. This work furnishes the historical background for numerous historical romances, among those of modern times “Lucius Flavius” by J. Spillmann, S.J., and “The End of Juda” by Anton de Waal.

Josephus’s second work, the “Jewish Antiquities” (Ioudaike Archaiologia), contains in twenty books the whole history of the Jews from the Creation to the outbreak of the revolt in A.D. 66. Books I-XI are based on the text of the Septuagint, though at times he also repeats traditional explanations current among the Jews in later times. He also quotes numerous passages from Greek authors whose writings are now lost. On the other hand he made allowance for the tastes of his Gentile contemporaries by arbitrary omissions as well as by the free embellishment of certain scenes. Books XII-XX, in which he speaks of the times preceding the coming of Christ and the foundation of Christianity, are our only sources for many historical events. In these the value of the statements is enhanced by the insertion of dates which are otherwise wanting, and by the citation of authentic documents which confirm and supplement the Biblical narrative.

HTH

Mik

 

[dessert]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Josephus:

HTH

Mik

Thanks it sounds like he was sort of a double agent.

 

[KephasAugustine]

Hi

Josephus says:
"I was sent by Titus Caesar with Ceralius and a thousand riders to a certain town by the name of Thecoa to find out whether a camp could be set up at this place. On my return I saw many prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized three of them as my former companions. I was inwardly very sad about this and went with tears in my eyes to Titus and told him about them. He at once gave the order that they should be taken down and given the best treatment so they could get better. However two of them died while being attended to by the doctor; the third recovered.”
tombofjesus.com/core/majorplayers/crucifixion/crucifixion-p1.htm

The above quote from Josephus makes possible Jesus’ survival from death on Cross. Any comments, please.

Thanks

I’m the kind of person who, if I wasn’t grounded in my Faith, would look more into that. However, being one of the Faithful I have a grasp on what is said in the Gospels: “one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water” and later that they buried him (cf: John 19). Also, it is clearly stated that “they still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead (John 20:9).” Not knowing that Christ was to rise from the dead, why would they have gone through the trouble of giving Him a fake burial if all they had to do (and would have done) was save His life?
Furthermore, the Gospels relate the story of Peter cutting of the ear of one of the temple guards. If Christ wanted to survive, He would not have stopped the conflict. Further still, He does not offer a defense for Himself but says if He wanted to live, and if His Kingdom was of this world, His followers would be fighting for Him (cf: John 18-19).
If all Jesus wanted to do was survive, live longer, not be killed, etc…why did He call of his protectors, offer no defense or rebuttal for the accusations made against Him, or call His followers on to protect Him? The Apostles had no idea He was going to rise from the dead–which is why they tried to save His life in the first place–so they would not have put on a mock burial. Of course the most reliable evidence of Jesus’ death is that He was pierced through the heart with a lance–say what you will about the miracles of first century medicine, but they couldn’t have saved Him after that.

Peace be to you.

 

[Spirithound]

The above quote from Josephus makes possible Jesus’ survival from death on Cross.

If Jesus survived the Crucifixion, He would be in a sorry state indeed. What kind of people would look at this battered, broken, man with various unnatural holes in his body, and say “I think I’ll travel around the known world and convert people to believe he is God.”???

Remember, all of the apostles except John were martyred (and Judas commited suicide), in various degrees of grotesqueness, and John was exiled instead.

 

[paarsurrey]

Besides, if Jesus never died, someone lied. The Apostles and other followers, including his mother Mary, all said that he died and rose again. The Romans involved all said that he died. The Jewish authorities said he died. Jesus said that he would die. God said that he died. So, who was lying?

Hi

Rather than saying someone was lying, I would prefer we take it more as a case of story telling in faith which had no literal, physical or historical basis.

One may differ with me, no compulsion. I respect your faith.

Thanks

 

[txsoldier94]

The water from the side of Christ was one of two things, or quite possibly both:

Fluid that had built up in the lungs from the pressures brought about by the actual crucifixion, and/or fluid from the sac that surrounds the heart…I dinnae remember the name at the mo’.

Yes, Josephus was a traitor, at least to the Jews, not the Christians. He defected during the revolt around AD 68-69 and became a slave to the Romans. Under their patronage he was able to write histories of the Judean Revolt and the histories of the Jews.

Mik

 

[paarsurrey]

Josephus Antiquities 18.3.3 - first quoted specifically by Eusebius in the fourth century - has come down to us as follows:
Church Fathers record his death:

Hi

Eusebius has no reliable credentials of a proper historian:

Eusebius is often regarded as the first court appointed Christian theologian in the service of the Constantine Roman Empire, seeing the Empire and the Imperial Church as closely bonded. Notwithstanding the great influence of his works on others, Eusebius was not himself a great historian.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius

Thanks

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Hi

Rather than saying someone was lying, I would prefer we take it more as a case of story telling in faith which had no literal, physical or historical basis.

One may differ with me, no compulsion. I respect your faith.

Thanks

Christians believe that this story has a literal, physical, and historical basis. We base our lives on this.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

Josephus says:
"I was sent by Titus Caesar with Ceralius and a thousand riders to a certain town by the name of Thecoa to find out whether a camp could be set up at this place. On my return I saw many prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized three of them as my former companions. I was inwardly very sad about this and went with tears in my eyes to Titus and told him about them. He at once gave the order that they should be taken down and given the best treatment so they could get better. However two of them died while being attended to by the doctor; the third recovered.”
tombofjesus.com/core/majorplayers/crucifixion/crucifixion-p1.htm

The above quote from Josephus makes possible Jesus’ survival from death on Cross. Any comments, please.

Thanks

Dear Paarsurrey,

Long time I am not writing to you. In the Golgotha, there were only 3 prisoners who were crucified during Jesus time, not many which means more than 3 as the context of your quotation suggests. Nothing said about the time and date of Josephus travel to the place named Thecoa, either. So, the quotation you mentioned does not necessarily refer to the crucifiction of Jesus.

 

[paarsurrey]

If Jesus had lived on in the body he would have stayed more with his apostles and not left His mother, not gone into hiding. There would be more written about Him and witnesses to His works.
Josephus if you believe he knew so much and was so attentive to the goings on would have even written more don’t you think?
Others would have written more and the government would have wanted to kill Him again, or cut off His head or somesuch prison thing as the many martyrs end came to.
They are just discovering things about the Jesus family tomb but can’t conclude positively.

Hi

That is what Jesus did. He could no longer live in Jerusalem or in the Roman ruled areas, so he went Eastward seceretly to escape his life. He took his mother Mary along and some of his trusted Apostles.

The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 has mentioned this in his book “Jesus in India”:

In Rauzat-us-Safa, a well-known book of history, on pages 130 - 135, occurs, in the Persian language, an account, which, briefly translated, is as follows.

"Jesus (on whom be peace) was named the Messiah because he was a great traveller. He wore a woollen scarf on his head, and a woollen cloak on his body. He had a stick in his hand; he used to wander from country to country and from city to city. At nightfall he would stay where he was.

He ate jungle vegetables, drank jungle water, and went on his travels on foot. His companions, in one of his travels, once bought a horse for him; he rode the horse one day, but as he could not make any provision for the feeding of the horse, he returned it. Journeying from his country, he arrived at Nasibain, which was at a distance of several hundred miles from his home.

**With him were a few of his disciples **who he sent into the city to preach. In the city, however, there were current wrong and unfounded rumours about Jesus (on whom be peace) and his mother. The governor of the city, therefore, arrested the disciples and then summoned Jesus. Jesus miraculously healed some persons and exhibited other miracles.

The king of the territory of Nasibain, therefore, with all his armies and his people, became a follower of his. The legend of the ‘coming down of food’ contained in the Holy Quran belongs to the days of his travels."
alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch4.html

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

The Apostles had no idea He was going to rise from the dead–which is why they tried to save His life in the first place–so they would not have put on a mock burial.

Hi

The Apostles, if we see through the accounts of NTBible, did try their utmost to save Jesus’ life. The burial in a room like tomb , in stead of a grave, was one such thing. The PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 had hinted about this in his book “Jesus in India”:

Through the grace of God, it so happened that the tomb in which he was placed was not like the tombs of this country; it was an airy apartment. In those days the custom of the Jews was to make the tomb airy like a commodious chamber, leaving an opening in it. Such tombs were kept ready; and as the occasion required, dead bodies were interred in them.

The gospels bear clear testimony to this: Luke says, ‘Now upon the first day of the week very early in the morning * they * came unto the sepulchre bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre [just consider this!] and they entered in and found not the body of the Lord Jesus’.11 Now consider for a moment the words, ‘They entered in.’

It is evident that a man can only enter a tomb which is like a room and has an opening. I shall state in this book, at the proper place, that the tomb of Jesus (peace be on him) which has recently been discovered in Srinagar, in Kashmir, has an opening like this tomb. This is a fine point which when pondered over will lead investigators in this field to a great and important conclusion.
alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch1.html**

Thanks