Josephus on survival of crucified persons

[paarsurrey]

Originally posted by Paarsurrey.

As from Word of GodAllahYHWH,Quran does not mention any person who was there.
If anone says he was there, we shall have to look into his testimony as per the norms of the world we live in, say in America, or UK or Germany or France

.

Dear Paarsurrey,

Sorry Paar, Quran is beyond my realm. Your OP mentioned about the crucifiction. Crucifiction is not in the Quran either, am I correct? So, why you bring Quran into the discussion on crucifiction?

Hi Dear Swariffin!

I think Quran does mention about the Crucifixion ( please mind your spelling of the word, as some may have a strong objection to it).

The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa’

[4:156] So, for their breaking the covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to slay the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: ‘Our hearts are wrapped up in covers,’ - nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little -
[4:157] And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny;
[4:158] And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=4&verse=152

Thanks

 

[txsoldier94]

From Matthew 27:

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 And some that stood there and heard, said: This man calleth Elias. 48 And immediately one of them running took a sponge, and filled it with vinegar; and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 And the others said: Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to deliver him. 50 And Jesus again crying with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

From Mark 15:

36 And one running and filling a sponge with vinegar, and putting it upon a reed, gave him to drink, saying: Stay, let us see if Elias come to take him down. **37 And Jesus having cried out with a loud voice, gave up the ghost. **38 And the veil of the temple was rent in two, from the top to the bottom. 39 And the centurion who stood over against him, seeing that crying out in this manner he had given up the ghost, said: Indeed this man was the son of God. 40 And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joseph, and Salome:

From Luke 23:

**46 And Jesus crying out with a loud voice, said: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit. And saying this, he gave up the ghost. **47 Now the centurion, seeing what was done, glorified God, saying: Indeed this was a just man. 48 And all the multitude of them that were come together to that sight, and saw the things that were done, returned striking their breasts. 49 And all his acquaintance, and the women that had followed him from Galilee, stood afar off, beholding these things.

From John 19:

26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. 27 After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. 28 Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst. 29 Now there was a vessel set there full of vinegar. And they, putting a sponge full of vinegar and hyssop, put it to his mouth. 30 Jesus therefore, when he had taken the vinegar, said: It is consummated. And bowing his head, he gave up the ghost.

So, all the Gospel writers were liars or mistaken? Not one of the eyewitnesses mentioned in any of those passages told the truth about Jesus dying on the cross?

We have here just 4 canonical Gospels that state unequivocally that Jesus died on the cross.

But because you quote from a book that NO ONE witnessed the dictation of, we should throw out all that we believe?

Sorry…can’t do that.

I’ll go by what Paul said in his first letter to the Corinthians:

11 For whether I, or they, so we preach, and so you have believed. 12 Now if Christ be preached, that he arose again from the dead, how do some among you say, that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen again. 14 And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God: because we have given testimony against God, that he hath raised up Christ; whom he hath not raised up, if the dead rise not again.

God bless,

Mik

 

[ralphinal]

Originally posted by Paarsurrey.
.

Hi Dear Swariffin!

I think Quran does mention about the Crucifixion ( please mind your spelling of the word, as some may have a strong objection to it).

The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa’

[4:156] So, for their breaking the covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to slay the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: ‘Our hearts are wrapped up in covers,’ - nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little -
[4:157] And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny;
[4:158] And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=4&verse=152

Thanks

Paar,
I’ve asked this before of Muslims and I never seem to get a good answer. I will accept any logical, straight answer, even if it disagrees with my position. I just want clarity.

If God made people think that Jesus died when he didn’t, isn’t God a lier and deciever? If He allowed people to think it and did nothing to correct them, isn’t he still guilty of deception? Why is this not problematic?

 

[paarsurrey]

Paar,
If God made people think that Jesus died when he didn’t, isn’t God a lier and deciever? If **He allowed people to think **it and did nothing to correct them, isn’t he still guilty of deception? Why is this not problematic?

Hi

GodAllahYHWH does not force anyone about thinking, it is their own perception out of free will. God would never force anybody, so it is men who make mistake and for that they are to blame themselves not God. God is All-Truth, so how could he lie, it is the men’s thinking, their concepts which lie.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 22: Al-Hajj

[22:63] And that is because it is Allah Who is the Truth, and that which they call on beside Him is falsehood and because Allah is the High, the Great.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=22&verse=59

I think it is reasonable and straightforward.

Thanks

 

[txsoldier94]

The Holy Quran : Chapter 22: Al-Hajj

[22:63] And that is because it is Allah Who is the Truth, and that which they call on beside Him is falsehood and because Allah is the High, the Great.

Who witnessed this?

For the crucifixion:

From Matthew we have a crowd of Jews, plus the guards.

From Mark we have a crowd of Jews, the guards, a centurion, Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joseph, and Salome.

From Luke: the crowd of Jews, guards, centurion and a group of women.

From John: the crowd, guards, Mary (Theotokos) and the beloved disciple (John himself).

That is a lot of witnesses that saw Jesus die on the cross.

But they are not to be believed because you have one line in an unsubstantiated book?

How’s that work again?

Mik

 

[swariffin]

Originally posted by Paarsurrey.
.

Hi Dear Swariffin!

I think Quran does mention about the Crucifixion ( please mind your spelling of the word, as some may have a strong objection to it).

The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa’

[4:156] So, for their breaking the covenant, and their denial of the Signs of Allah, and their seeking to slay the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: ‘Our hearts are wrapped up in covers,’ - nay, but Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not but little -
[4:157] And for their disbelief and for their uttering against Mary a grievous calumny;
[4:158] And for their saying, 'We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.
[4:159] On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=4&verse=152

Thanks

Dear Paarsurey,

Thanks for the correction, Paar. Anyway, I was just saying that I don’t know about the Quran, and my faith is not in the Quran (I don’t mean that Quran is rubbish, I just have no faith in it). So, why bring Quran to convince me?

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally posted by Paarsurrey:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 22: Al-Hajj

[22:63] And that is because it is Allah Who is the Truth, and that which they call on beside Him is falsehood and because Allah is the High, the Great.

Who witnessed this?

Hi

The Quran says that GodAllahYHWH is sufficient as a witness, and it is most convincing and reasonable:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 29: Al-`Ankabut
**
[29:49] And thou didst not recite any Book before the Qur’an, nor didst thou write one with thy right hand; in that case the liars would have had cause to doubt. **
[29:50] Nay, it is a collection of clear Signs in the hearts of those who are given knowledge. And none but the wrongdoers deny Our Signs.
[29:51] And they say, ‘Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?’ Say, ‘The Signs are with Allah, and I am but a plain warner,’
[29:52] Is it not enough for a Sign for them that We have sent down to thee the perfect Book which is recited to them? Verily, in this there is great mercy and a reminder for a people who believe.
[29:53] Say, 'Allah is sufficient as a Witness between me and you. He knows what is in the heavens and the earth. And as for those who believe in falsehood and disbelieve in Allah, they it is who are the losers.’
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=29&verse=48

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Dear Paarsurey,
Thanks for the correction, Paar. Anyway, I was just saying that I don’t know about the Quran, and my faith is not in the Quran (I don’t mean that Quran is rubbish, I just have no faith in it). So, why bring Quran to convince me?

Hi

I quote from Quran not as a book you believe in, but since it speaks most logically and reasoably, otherwise I have no intention of forcing it on you or anybody else. I have to present it on every issue, as I believe in it to be most reasonable and logical while other revealed books, in my opinion hardly give any reason of their own, the reason is provided by their followers that , to me, belittles their revealed book, which must be honoured and respected.

This is the easiest and most reliable tool of inter-faith study to provide a claim on an issue and its reason from the revealed book we believe in. If we leave that, then there won’t be any comparative study, it would reduce to mere a monologue or an idle gossip. I being a genuine student of searching for truth think it to be reasonable and essential.

Am I clear, please?

You could please differ with me out of your free-will, I don’t mind.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

For the crucifixion:
From Matthew we have a crowd of Jews, plus the guards.
From Mark we have a crowd of Jews, the guards, a centurion, Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joseph, and Salome.
From Luke: the crowd of Jews, guards, centurion and a group of women.
From John: the crowd, guards, Mary (Theotokos) and the beloved disciple (John himself).
That is a lot of witnesses that saw Jesus die on the cross.
But they are not to be believed because you have one line in an unsubstantiated book?
How’s that work again?
Mik

Hi

Thanks for presenting your arguments from your revealed/religious book you believe in.

There were crowds of witnesses as you mention.

Have the witnesses given their witnessing in a **court of law **or they have been **cross-examined **as per the 21st century standards in vogue in USA, UK, Germany, France etc, all Christian predominant countries?

I don’t think so.

Please **provide a list **so that a man of 21st century be convinced heart and soul, and doesn’t have to take it as blindfaith.

However, no compulsion

Thanks

 

[txsoldier94]

So, quotes from the Bible must have witnesses to be cross examined by 21st Century standards, but quotes from the Koran are taken at face value?

I just want to be clear on this.

Mik

 

[juno24]

There were crowds of witnesses as you mention.

Have the witnesses given their witnessing in a **court of law **or they have been **cross-examined **as per the 21st century standards in vogue in USA, UK, Germany, France etc, all Christian predominant countries?

I don’t think so.

How in the world would you suggest someone who died nearly 2000 years ago give testimony and be cross examined in a 21st century court of law??? And why in the world would you hold those individuals to a standard that did not exist in their own time, especially when you are not willing to hold you own so-called prophet and so-called holy books to the same standard?

Paarsurrey:

Please **provide a list **

so that a man of 21st century be convinced heart and soul, and doesn’t have to take it as blindfaith.

However, no compulsion

Thanks

I tell you what, why don’t you do the same for your Koran and Mohammed? It is not enough for you to say that your book says that your god is a good enough witness, and as such no other is necessary, while at the same time demanding that the list of witnesses to the death of the Christ be somehow substantiated by other witnesses, and then subjected to forms of cross-examination and verification that have come about over a millennium after those people have died!
Do you honestly not see the complete hypocrisy in your demand? Why the double standard, Paarsurrey? Why demand one standard for us, while not being willing to hold yourself to that same standard?

 

[ralphinal]

Hi

GodAllahYHWH does not force anyone about thinking, it is their own perception out of free will. God would never force anybody, so it is men who make mistake and for that they are to blame themselves not God. God is All-Truth, so how could he lie, it is the men’s thinking, their concepts which lie.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 22: Al-Hajj

[22:63] And that is because it is Allah Who is the Truth, and that which they call on beside Him is falsehood and because Allah is the High, the Great.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=22&verse=59

I think it is reasonable and straightforward.

Thanks

Yes, it is. Thank you. So God did not replace Jesus with anyone else nor did He pull Jesus off of the Cross. According to your position, Jesus was taken down before he was really dead.

Is this a common Muslim thought?

 

[Spirithound]

If Jesus survived the Crucifixion, He would be in a sorry state indeed. What kind of people would look at this battered, broken, man with various unnatural holes in his body, and say “I think I’ll travel around the known world and convert people to believe he is God.”???

Remember, all of the apostles except John were martyred (and Judas commited suicide), in various degrees of grotesqueness, and John was exiled instead.

So Paar__, what about this? Do a dozen men go to their death for something they KNOW is false? It’s not like they had a great life before their death to make it all worthwhile in some sort of hedonistic way either. They were imprisoned and executed. And John was exiled.

 

[paarsurrey]

So Paar__, what about this? Do a dozen men go to their death for something they KNOW is false? It’s not like they had a great life before their death to make it all worthwhile in some sort of hedonistic way either. They were imprisoned and executed. And John was exiled.

Hi

I love Jesus and Mary, I am pleased that they survived a cursed death on Cross and they spent rest of their life in peace and tranquility. I understand that Jesus got married and had children. His off-springs are in abundance in Kashmir.

Quran says:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 23: Al-Mu’minun

[23:50] And We gave Moses the Book, that they might be guided.**
[23:51] And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them shelter on an elevated land of green valleys and springs of running water. **
[23:52] O ye Messengers, eat of the pure things and do good works. Verily, I am Well-Aware of what you do.
[23:53] And know that this community of yours is one community, and I am your Lord. So take ME as your Protector.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=23&verse=47

GodAllahYHWH is the Master of the Day of Judgement, he would duly reward those who laid down there lifes in His path, I leave that entirely to Him.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

cross-examination and verification

Hi

Perhaps the people were not satisfied with the accounts of the events of Crucifixion an mentioned by the anonymous Gosples writers in all these 2000 years and the coined the term cross-examination . This is very much in use in the Christian predominant countries and it is a very satisfying tool of investigation if a third digree murder is committed. Since the Jews are alleged to have killed Jesus ( though he survived by hidden hand of GodAllahYHWH) so it is a third digree murder case , and must have been investigated as is in vogue in the 21st century, in my opinion, no compulsion however, just a suggestion.

In Muhammad’s case there is no such happening.

Sorry; you could have your own thoughts, and I have my own thoughts but with reasons.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes, it is. Thank you. So God did not replace Jesus with anyone else nor did He pull Jesus off of the Cross. According to your position, Jesus was taken down before he was really dead.
Is this a common Muslim thought?

Hi

I have quoted the verses from Quran. The Muslims are supposed to believe what Quran says and if its stance is reasonable, rational and logical everybody both Muslims and Non-Muslims alike should , common sense says, should believe in it, yet there is no compulsion.

Thanks

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Hi

I have quoted the verses from Quran. The Muslims are supposed to believe what Quran says and if its stance is reasonable, rational and logical everybody both Muslims and Non-Muslims alike should , common sense says, should believe in it, yet there is no compulsion.

Thanks

emphasis mine]

How is Jesus surviving the crucifixion “reasonable, rational and logical”?

 

[juno24]

Hi

Perhaps the people were not satisfied with the accounts of the events of Crucifixion an mentioned by the anonymous Gosples writers in all these 2000 years and the coined the term cross-examination . This is very much in use in the Christian predominant countries and it is a very satisfying tool of investigation if a third digree murder is committed. Since the Jews are alleged to have killed Jesus ( though he survived by hidden hand of GodAllahYHWH) so it is a third digree murder case , and must have been investigated as is in vogue in the 21st century, in my opinion, no compulsion however, just a suggestion.

In Muhammad’s case there is no such happening.

I have to believe your lack of understanding of the term cross examination is due to the fact that English is not your first language; otherwise my reply would be uncharitable. To cross examine simply means to ask a witness questions about answers previously given. The “cross” in cross examine refers to 2 lawyers crossing paths, so to speak, in going over the testimony of a single witness. It has absolutely nothing to do with examining the cross of Christ. But I am sure you knew that already.
Second, again, why do you insist that the Gospel accounts be held to a standard that you are unwilling to hold your Koran to? That is, why should the Gospel accounts have to be verified by a standard that was put in place many many centuries after they happened, but your accounts of your own holy book, the Koran, are not? Are you saying that only those historical accounts where someone died must actually be verified? That’s nonsense.
Your supposed prophet claimed to have received divine revelation, with no one to witness such revelation, and you accept it simply because he said it was so. No witnesses, no verifying accounts outside of Mohammed’s own word, and yet you accept it as true because you want to. THAT is what I am questioning.

Paarsurrey:

Sorry; you could have your own thoughts, and I have my own thoughts but with reasons.

Thanks

Well now, isn’t that incredibly condescending of you! I have my thoughts (but without reason, according to you), and yours are so well reasoned out. Your “reason” for believing Mohammed are essentially: “because he said so” and your reason for believing that Jesus did not die is: “because someone else said so” (in reference to the one and only book you seem to have read on the topic).

 

[txsoldier94]

If he is willing to take the word of the Koran, then nothing we say will ever convince him that he is wrong.

I appreciate his willingness to come here, but one cannot have a discussion with someone that refuses to accept the truth.

Mik

 

[ralphinal]

Hi

I have quoted the verses from Quran. The Muslims are supposed to believe what Quran says and if its stance is reasonable, rational and logical everybody both Muslims and Non-Muslims alike should , common sense says, should believe in it, yet there is no compulsion.

Thanks

I understand this, paar. I really do. But why do some Muslims believe someone else was on the cross and made to look like Jesus? Where does this come from? Or where do they get that God pulled him off the cross before he died? IT looks like they are saying that whomever was up there did die, but they have to make the Koran fit. So, they make a lier out of God.