Josephus on survival of crucified persons

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The above quote from Josephus makes possible Jesus’ survival from death on Cross. Any comments, please.

**1. Josephus is not always exactly accurate (to put it sweetly).
  1. By denying that Jesus died on the Cross, Mahometans think they are freed from having to deal with His Resurrection. A dead man requires nothing but that he be buried. A man who rose from the dead is in an excellent position to make non-negotiable demands.
I confess there is no God but Fahter, Son, and Holy Spirit and that Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead.

If you don’t believe this, you will spend eternity in hell with your precious Mahomet. Now, if I didn’t love you would I say this? But I’m concerned for your eternal salvation.**
 
[4:158] And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified;

**This is nothing more or less than the heresy of Docetism.

It’s one of many reasons why the Koran reveals itself to be a book of false prophecies.

Try again.**
 
Perhaps the people were not satisfied with the accounts of the events of Crucifixion an mentioned by the anonymous Gosples
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I think you will find that most Christians are quite satisfied with the accounts of the crucifixion written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The True Gospels were not anonymously written.

Mik
 
paarsurrey said:
I love Jesus and Mary, I am pleased that they survived a cursed death on Cross and they spent rest of their life in peace and tranquility. I understand that Jesus got married and had children. His off-springs are in abundance in Kashmir.

Quran says:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 23: Al-Mu’minun

[23:50] And We gave Moses the Book, that they might be guided.**
[23:51] And We made the son of Mary and his mother a Sign, and gave them shelter on an elevated land of green valleys and springs of running water. **
[23:52] O ye Messengers, eat of the pure things and do good works. Verily, I am Well-Aware of what you do.
[23:53] And know that this community of yours is one community, and I am your Lord. So take ME as your Protector.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=23&verse=47

GodAllahYHWH is the Master of the Day of Judgement, he would duly reward those who laid down there lifes in His path, I leave that entirely to Him.
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You have not addressed my argument. Can you gather together a dozen men and convince them to die proclaiming a message that they KNOW is false?
 
Spirithound said:
You have not addressed my argument. Can you gather together a dozen men and convince them to die proclaiming a message that they KNOW is false?
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Hi

People die for different reason, we cannot generalize for what they die. A faith has to be based on truthful, reasonable, rational and logical arguments to satisfy needs of the diverse human beings of the present times.

Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

People die for different reason, we cannot generalize for what they die. A faith has to be based on truthful, reasonable, rational and logical arguments to satisfy needs of the diverse human beings of the present times.

Thanks
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emphasis mine]
Is is “truthful, reasonable, rational and logical” to suggest that Jesus survived the crucifixion and the lance in his side?
 
txsoldier94 said:
I think you will find that most Christians are quite satisfied with the accounts of the crucifixion written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The True Gospels were not anonymously written.
Mik
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Hi

gMatthew-written by an anonymous non-eyewitness to Jesus’ ministry

I give two excerpts from wikipedia for Matthew.
  1. Secular scholarship generally agrees it was written by an anonymous non-eyewitness to Jesus’ ministry. The author apparently used the Gospel of Mark as one source and the hypothetical Q document as another, possibly writing in Antioch, c 80-85
  2. Beginning in the 18th century, however, scholars have increasingly questioned that traditional view, and today the majority agrees Matthew did not write the Gospel which bears his name.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew

You may also access the following:
newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm under the title Gospel and Gospels

Thanks
 
You know, I watched that movie paar posted a while back. I had issues then. The Christian “experts” seemed to be Jesus siminar folks anyway, so they don’t accept the ressurection in the first place.

Also, no one has addressed Jesus being pierced in the side. He would have bled out even if he was alive.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Kindly read the following, if you may like,please:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Did_Jesus_Die%3F
Did_Jesus_Die?

Thanks
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No, I wouldn’t like. Why would I like to read that?

You just don’t get it, do you, paarsurrey? You fail to realise that your faith has no credibility; No fulfilled prophecies - no miracles - no reliable history. Nothing. You are just pushing rhetoric with no substance.

I’ve seen Web sites that prove Jews committed the Sept 11th terrorist attacks. I’ve seen Web sites that prove men did not land on the moon. I’ve seen Web sites that prove there really is a lockness monster. Sure, they believe it. I don’t, because there is no “reasonable, rational and logical arguments” to sustain those theories.

There is no way a man can survive the whipping, crucifixion, and being plunged by a spear. It would take a miracle. And there are no witness accounts of such a miracle.

Now, stop it.
 
ralphinal said:
You know, I watched that movie paar posted a while back. I had issues then. The Christian “experts” seemed to be Jesus siminar folks anyway, so they don’t accept the ressurection in the first place.

Also, no one has addressed Jesus being pierced in the side. He would have bled out even if he was alive.
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Only if they pierced his heart. if they pierced either thorax, he could have survived,like someone being knifed.

The cited source is Catholic, btw.

newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
emphasis mine]
Is is “truthful, reasonable, rational and logical” to suggest that Jesus survived the crucifixion and the lance in his side?
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I think that it’s definitely possible and certainly more probably than rising from the dead.

Jesus had a lot of friends, including rich friends like Joseph of Aramithea who could have bribed the guards to take him down while he was still alive.
 
ralphinal said:
The Christian “experts” seemed to be Jesus siminar folks anyway, so they don’t accept the ressurection in the first place.
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Hi

You could have a different opinion; no problem, but it should be reasonable.

Your above sentece could be rephrased by the “Jesus Seminar” people, if they happen to read yours:

The Christian “experts” seemed to be “the same old Catholics” folks anyway; so they don’t accept that Jesus escaped death on Cross and they continue with the creed of the ressurection in the first place.

Now I don’t think that would help us anyway.

Please don’t summarily reject their view point, they are human beings, please respect them as such, and build up your viewpoint with reasonable, rational and logical argument to win them over.

Thanks
 
1234 said:
I think that it’s definitely possible and certainly more probably than rising from the dead.

Jesus had a lot of friends, including rich friends like Joseph of Aramithea who could have bribed the guards to take him down while he was still alive.
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Hello 1234,

Does Jesus surviving the crucifixion fulfill any prophecy?

Why do suppose the apostles were willing to die for their faith in the risen Jesus?

What did Jesus mean when he made reference to the Sign of Jonah?

Do you suppose the lunar eclipse that took place on Friday 3rd April 33 AD was just a co-incidence?

Why do you suppose St John referred to Jesus as the Lamb of God?

What is your affiliation with Islam?
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
Hello 1234,

Does Jesus surviving the crucifixion fulfill any prophecy?

Why do suppose the apostles were willing to die for their faith in the risen Jesus?

What did Jesus mean when he made reference to the Sign of Jonah?

Do you suppose the lunar eclipse that took place on Friday 3rd April 33 AD was just a co-incidence?

Why do you suppose St John referred to Jesus as the Lamb of God?

What is your affiliation with Islam?
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I have no affiliation with Islam.

Many believers die for their faith. Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus die for their faith all the time. As a matter of fact, Muslims are dying for their faith every day now, as suicide bombers. They are murderers–and martyrs. Terrible, but there it is. Dying for something doesn’t make it true.

Anyone and anything can fulfill a prophesy. Nostradamus prophesies are fulfilled all the time. The Jews of Jesus’ time, who new their Old Testament well, didn’t think that Jesus fulfilled any prophesies, not so they would believe in him as their messiah.

A lunar eclipse is hardly a miracle. We had one here the other night. We’re having a solar eclipse this year. There was evidence of a lunar eclipse on about Jesus’ death, but no solar eclipse.

Interesting discussion on dating the crucifixion from the Quarterly journal of the Royal Astronomical Society:

johnpratt.com/items/docs/newton.html

Another discussion about the interesting solar events surroundingt he deaths of demi-gods…

infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/chap17.html
 
Murderers and martyrs— an interesting combination, one that Christians would say are completely incompatible. So that is a problem of what a word means in the two religions. To kill another to promote Christ would never make one a martyr, only a murderer.
 
1234 said:
I have no affiliation with Islam.

Many believers die for their faith. Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus die for their faith all the time. As a matter of fact, Muslims are dying for their faith every day now, as suicide bombers. They are murderers–and martyrs. Terrible, but there it is. Dying for something doesn’t make it true.

Anyone and anything can fulfill a prophesy. Nostradamus prophesies are fulfilled all the time. The Jews of Jesus’ time, who new their Old Testament well, didn’t think that Jesus fulfilled any prophesies, not so they would believe in him as their messiah.

A lunar eclipse is hardly a miracle. We had one here the other night. We’re having a solar eclipse this year. There was evidence of a lunar eclipse on about Jesus’ death, but no solar eclipse.

Interesting discussion on dating the crucifixion from the Quarterly journal of the Royal Astronomical Society:

johnpratt.com/items/docs/newton.html

Another discussion about the interesting solar events surroundingt he deaths of demi-gods…

infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/chap17.html
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Hello again, 1234;

Sorry, I can’t accept suicide bombers as being comparable to the apostles who are being killed for their faith. And I’m sorry if you can’t see the difference between a murderer and a victim. The murdered apostles were witnesses to Jesus. I don’t know who the murdering suicidals are witnesses for.

I realise you say anyone can fulfill prophecy, but - really - nobody has. The virgin birth, life, death and resurrection of a servant were foretold. Only one person fulfilled these. Guess who?

You’re right; A lunar eclipse is hardly a miracle - except when it was foretold by the prophet Joel (see Jl 2:31).

I’m not sure why you find Newton’s calculation for the crucifixion date interesting. You’re Web site says “It has been known that Newton preferred Friday, AD 34 April 23, but his reasons apparently have been forgotten”. Go figure.

I don’t know why you find the other article interesting; It really doesn’t say anything about Jesus surviving a crucifixion. Perhaps you are trying to derail a thread.
 
1234,

I understand about the difference between a heart/lung puncture and a thorax one. But, the piercing has to be combined with the other blood loss that he suffered. Also, if the diaphragm had been cut, breathing would have been an issue.
 
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