Josephus on survival of crucified persons

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Isa_Almisry said:
Plus you have that lance thrust into His side to test that he was dead (recorded by an eyewitness) to explain.
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There are no eyewitness accounts of the death of Jesus.

Mark, Luke, and Matthew weren’t there. Paul wasn’t there.

Mark says that John wasn’t there.
 
1234 said:
There are no eyewitness accounts of the death of Jesus.
Mark, Luke, and Matthew weren’t there. Paul wasn’t there.
Mark says that John wasn’t there.
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Hi

I agree with you, there seems to be no first hand eye-witness account of the event of Crucifixion of Jesus.

Thanks
 
Hesychios said:
…

What is interesting about the crucifixion of Jesus, is that He apparently did not struggle against the pain indefinitely, but accepted it, allowing it to kill Him. For the two thieves were still struggling and had their legs broken but Jesus, known to be a healthy and strong man who walked all over the countryside was already dead. This should be recognized as proof that he was dead, because the soldiers verified that His body was already hanging limp, and that is not survivable. Christian of the first few centuries would have been very familiar with the significance of that fact in the accounts, but we need it explained to us, because we have never witnessed the cruel reality of such a death.

Michael

http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/littlecross.gif
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Also bear in mind that Jesus was made to endure the flogging and the carrying of the cross to Calvary. By then he was very much weakened and that condition obviously hastened his death compared to the two theives.

Jesus died from many different problems, one was the actual crucifixion. But before the crucifixion, Jesus was beaten and flogged. He was so exhausted that another man had to carry his cross.

To elaborate on the whipping, the Romans would strip a person down to the waist and would tie him in the courtyard. Then they would take a whip that had a handle about a foot and a half long. At the end of the handle, it had four leather thongs with heavy, jagged bones or balls of lead with jagged edges, wound into the end of the straps. There were a minimum of five straps of different lengths. The Romans would bring the whip down over the back of the individual and all the balls of lead or bone would hit the body at the same time. The Jews would only permit 40 lashes, so they never did more than 39 so they wouldn’t break the law if they miscounted. The Romans, however, were unhindered. They could lash as many times as they wanted. So, when the Romans whipped a Jew, they struck 41 or more lashes out of spite to the Jews. So Jesus had suffered at least 41 lashes.

There are several medical authorities that have done research on the crucifixion. One is Dr. C. Truman Davis, in the state of Arizona. He is a medical doctor who has performed meticulous study of the crucifixion from a medical perspective. Here he gives the effect of the Roman flogging: “The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across (a person’s) shoulders, back and legs. At first, the heavy thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutalleous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises, which the others cut wide open. Finally, the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons, and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue.”

Many people would die just from the whipping alone. After Jesus was whipped, they took Him out to the execution area and drove spikes into His wrists and His feet. It says that late that Friday afternoon they broke the legs of the two thieves hanging with Jesus, but they did not break His legs. He was on the cross and they’d already acknowledged Him being dead. Now the Roman executioners speared Jesus. This was the method by which an executioner checked to see if a still victim was in fact dead. If blood and pericardial fluid came out as in Jesus’ case, it was an indication of death and there was no need for the legs to be broken to hasten death so that the cross could re-used for the next victim. Eyewitness accounts said blood and water came out separated - indicating Jesus was already dead.
 
paarsurrey said:
The above quote from Josephus makes possible Jesus’ survival from death on Cross. Any comments, please.
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No, it doesn’t, any more so than me pulling a quote from the Urantia Book makes possible Jesus being an extraterrestrial.

There are multiple sources that attest that Jesus died on a cross. Those sources aren’t falsified by grasping at straws and faulty logic.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
Spirithound said:
No he doesn’t. He merely doesn’t say that John was there.
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Simon from Kirene was there, at least for a certain part of Jesus path. Many or a lot of unmentioned people were there. The Roman Soldiers were there. Dear Paarsurrey, do you mean that none of them never converted to Christianity? and told the story to other Christians including to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John at a later date? It does not make sense if they don’t as well as it does not make sense that none of those people present during the crucifiction never converted into Christianity. Even a later belief such as the Ahmadians can gain good followers such as yourself.
 
swariffin said:
Simon from Kirene was there, at least for a certain part of Jesus path. Many or a lot of unmentioned people were there. The Roman Soldiers were there. Dear Paarsurrey, do you mean that none of them never converted to Christianity? and told the story to other Christians including to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John at a later date? It does not make sense if they don’t as well as it does not make sense that none of those people present during the crucifiction never converted into Christianity. Even a later belief such as the Ahmadians can gain good followers such as yourself.
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Hi

As from Word of GodAllahYHWH,Quran does not mention any person who was there.

If anone says he was there, we shall have to look into his testimony as per the norms of the world we live in, say in America, or UK or Germany or France.

Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

I agree with you, there seems to be no first hand eye-witness account of the event of Crucifixion of Jesus.

Thanks
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🤷 I don’t understand; Are you suggesting that Jesus wasn’t crucified? Or are you suggesting that he survived the crucifixion?

And do you have a first hand eye-witness account?
 
Spirithound said:
No he doesn’t. He merely doesn’t say that John was there.
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…and as my dad the lawyer would say, “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

As all Gospels are equally inspired by the Holy Spirit, each of them is just as credible as the others; John says he was there, so we believe he was there.

Besides, John doesn’t even say “I saw” he says “an eyewitness has testified” or something to that effect, with the Holy Spirit prompting him to add “and his testimony is true.”
 
Charlie_Zeaiter said:
🤷 I don’t understand; Are you suggesting that Jesus wasn’t crucified? Or are you suggesting that he survived the crucifixion?
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Hi

I am not suggesting that Jesus was not put on Cross; Jesus was put on Cross but he did not die on Cross. He was delivered from it in near dead position. Those who said that he died for sure must have brought eye-witnesses who should have been Cross-examined as per the present standards in vouge say in USA, UK, Germany and France etc.

Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

I am not suggesting that Jesus was not put on Cross; Jesus was put on Cross but he did not die on Cross. He was delivered from it in near dead position. Those who said that he died for sure must have brought eye-witnesses who should have been Cross-examined as per the present standards in vouge say in USA, UK, Germany and France etc.

Thanks
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I see…so in order to verify the actual death of Jesus, we must apply 21st Century standards of proof?

Where are the eyewitnesses for Mohammad’s revelation? And can we subject them to modern cross-examination techniques as well?

Mik
 
Orignially from Paarsurrey:
I am not suggesting that Jesus was not put on Cross; Jesus was put on Cross but he did not die on Cross. He was delivered from it in near dead position. Those who said that he died for sure must have brought eye-witnesses who should have been Cross-examined as per the present standards in vouge say in USA, UK, Germany and France etc.
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txsoldier94 said:
I see…so in order to verify the actual death of Jesus, we must apply 21st Century standards of proof?
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**Hi

Since we live in the 21st Century.

Thanks**
 
Granted, that we do.

So what witnesses do you provide to back up Mohammed’s revelation?

I’d like to cross-examine them.

Mik
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

I am not suggesting that Jesus was not put on Cross; Jesus was put on Cross but he did not die on Cross. He was delivered from it in near dead position. Those who said that he died for sure must have brought eye-witnesses who should have been Cross-examined as per the present standards in vouge say in USA, UK, Germany and France etc.

Thanks
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Dear Paarsurrey,

Are you sure you are writing this? Were you upset to anybody? You are correct, we are living in the 21st century. Are you ready to subject Muhammad whom you have faith in, into our 21st century standard cross-examination??:confused:

When some members claim Mohammad is a pedophile, I don’t buy that idea. Because, I do agree that during Muhammad’s time, it may be possible that a man marrying a 9 yrs old girl. But, since you are allowing Muhammad to be subjected to 21st century standard, then you are saying that Muhammad was a pedophile.

I think that somebody hijacked Paarsurrey’s password into this forum and wrote something unknown to Paar on his behalf. I can’t believe Paarsurrey ever say so.
 
OK kids, reread the Gospel of John, John was at the death of Christ. The Gospel of Mark is Peter’s account. Peter and John both saw the empty grave.

To the question asked earlier, no, the writings of Josephus were NOT refering to the Crucifixion of Jesus, but to former friends of Josephus.
 
By this logic, we should say that since people have survived hangings, then no one has died by hanging. Since people have survived shootings, then shootings are not lethal. And so on…

Even if 50% of people survived crucifixion, the other half is still DEAD>
 
ralphinal said:
By this logic, we should say that since people have survived hangings, then no one has died by hanging. Since people have survived shootings, then shootings are not lethal. And so on…

Even if 50% of people survived crucifixion, the other half is still DEAD>
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It’s even more specific than that. It would be more like saying that since some people have survived hanging, then Saddam Hussein did not die by hanging. Or since some people survive being shot, then Abraham Lincoln did not die from being shot.
It is an utterly ridiculous idea, especially when the accounts of Jesus’s death are there in the Gospels. Not to mention that it makes Jesus out to be a coward on a very grand scale-- he scurried away to safety while leaving his friends and most trusted disciples to die horrendous deaths on his behalf.
 
juno24 said:
It’s even more specific than that. It would be more like saying that since some people have survived hanging, then Saddam Hussein did not die by hanging. Or since some people survive being shot, then Abraham Lincoln did not die from being shot.
It is an utterly ridiculous idea, especially when the accounts of Jesus’s death are there in the Gospels. Not to mention that it makes Jesus out to be a coward on a very grand scale-- he scurried away to safety while leaving his friends and most trusted disciples to die horrendous deaths on his behalf.
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You are correct.

Not only would it make Jesus a coward, but it would also mean that he, and God, lied about it. His mother lied. Lots of lies. LOTS.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

As from Word of GodAllahYHWH,Quran does not mention any person who was there.

If anone says he was there, we shall have to look into his testimony as per the norms of the world we live in, say in America, or UK or Germany or France.

Thanks
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Dear Paarsurrey,

Sorry Paar, Quran is beyond my realm. Your OP mentioned about the crucifiction. Crucifiction is not in the Quran either, am I correct? So, why you bring Quran into the discussion on crucifiction?
 
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