Josephus on survival of crucified persons

[ralphinal]

Paar,

I dismiss the Jesus Seminar folks outright without hearing their argument because they deny that there have ever been any miracles at all. In other words, God has never exerted his power in any way once creation began. Therefore, they do not represent a Christian viewpoint at all. I will gladly discuss their claims as if they were agnostic or atheist, but not as Christians.

 

[Spirithound]

I have no affiliation with Islam.

Many believers die for their faith. Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus die for their faith all the time. As a matter of fact, Muslims are dying for their faith every day now, as suicide bombers. They are murderers–and martyrs. Terrible, but there it is. Dying for something doesn’t make it true.

The difference is that the apostles were in a position to KNOW whether Jesus died. Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, even Christians today, such as myself are not in a position to KNOW that our religion is the correct one. I truly BELIEVE that Jesus died and rose from the dead, but if I were to be martyred, you could, taking my death alone, dismiss me as a nutcase. The Apostles, no. They KNEW.

 

[Spirithound]

1234,

I understand about the difference between a heart/lung puncture and a thorax one. But, the piercing has to be combined with the other blood loss that he suffered. Also, if the diaphragm had been cut, breathing would have been an issue.

Not to mention infections from the flogging and more deeply, the lance.

 

[1234]

. To kill another to promote Christ would never make one a martyr, only a murderer.

True–for Christians.

But not for some types of Islam.

I am saying only that many religions have produced and continue to produce martyrs.

 

[deb1]

I think that it’s definitely possible and certainly more probably than rising from the dead.

Jesus had a lot of friends, including rich friends like Joseph of Aramithea who could have bribed the guards to take him down while he was still alive.

The Romans were experts at killing people. Let’s don’t forget how brutal the Romans actually were. The Roman soldiers would have grown up seeing death played out as sport in their arena. The warfare of the time involved soldiers getting up close and hacking each other to death. These were men who knew what death looked like.

The crucifixation was done publically, on a hill, where everyone could view the Lord’s death. Even the Jewish leaders came and mocked Jesus as he was dying.

Apparently there were several soldiers playing dice at the foot of the cross. Fooling all these soldiers, experienced with death, would have been impossible. Remember they knew enough to stab Jesus with a spear to check him for death.

Roman soldiers were often punished brutally for not following orders. Any soldier who was caught taking a bribe might very well have ended up on the cross themselves.Not only would the punishment have outweighed any size bribe but the soldier would have been caught by his fellow soldiers anyway.

 

[deb1]

True–for Christians.

But not for some types of Islam.

I am saying only that many religions have produced and continue to produce martyrs.

This is true. If a person believes strongly enough in something then they might very well be willing to die for that belief regardless of the believes actual truth. But…can you name me one person who died for something that they KNEW was false? Even if someone thinks that the disciples were wrong in their faith, it can’t be denied that they believed they were right.

No one knowingly dies for a lie.

 

[deb1]

I.

Many believers die for their faith. Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus die for their faith all the time. As a matter of fact, Muslims are dying for their faith every day now, as suicide bombers. They are murderers–and martyrs. Terrible, but there it is. Dying for something doesn’t make it true.

You are making my point for me. NO ONE DIES FOR SOMETHING THEY BELIVE IS A LIE. The suicide bombers just prove my point. It would be insane to suggest that radical Muslims don’t believe in the cause that they are dying for.

Yet, it is being suggested that some of the apostles-who gave their lives-died for something that they knew was a hoax. That is crazy.

You might not believe that the disciples were correct in their faith but you can’t deny that they did believe that they were dying for truth.

 

[txsoldier94]

Islam’s revisionist history of Christianity strikes me as laughable. Why anyone would think that the Apostles and the others – that hid fearfully in the upper room because of the fear of the Romans and Jewish leaders-- would be brave enough to swindle Pontius Pilate into allowing them to take Jesus off the cross whilst still alive…just makes no sense.

There is nothing reasonable about that at all.

Mik

 

[deb1]

Hi

Josephus says:
"I was sent by Titus Caesar with Ceralius and a thousand riders to a certain town by the name of Thecoa to find out whether a camp could be set up at this place. On my return I saw many prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized three of them as my former companions. I was inwardly very sad about this and went with tears in my eyes to Titus and told him about them. He at once gave the order that they should be taken down and given the best treatment so they could get better. However two of them died while being attended to by the doctor; the third recovered.”
tombofjesus.com/core/majorplayers/crucifixion/crucifixion-p1.htm

The above quote from Josephus makes possible Jesus’ survival from death on Cross. Any comments, please.

Thanks

I just wanted to point this out for those who might mistakenly think that Josephus is talking about Jesus here.
Titus Caeser was the man in charge of the Roman army during the Fall of Jerusalem. This occurred a generation after Christ’s death.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Interesting recent programs on “The Naked Archeologist” dealing with Josephus and also on crucifixion.

 

[swariffin]

Only if they pierced his heart. if they pierced either thorax, he could have survived,like someone being knifed.

The cited source is Catholic, btw.

newadvent.org/cathen/06655b.htm

With 21st century medications and doctors, maybe. With the first century medications and doctors (even the bible did not mentioned any doctors present), impossible.

 

[swariffin]

I think that it’s definitely possible and certainly more probably than rising from the dead.

Jesus had a lot of friends, including rich friends like Joseph of Aramithea who could have bribed the guards to take him down while he was still alive.

The Roman soldiers who have seen many deaths in their battle, certainly know how to distinguish a dead or dying person. A dying person (but still alive) must have reacted to a struck of a spear in the side. A dead person would not reacted at all. Those Roman soldiers knew that for sure, for people having many experience in the battlefield.

 

[swariffin]

Paar,

You are being very nice and polite to a bunch of nasty, vicious CHRISTIANS.

Dear 1234,

I am a Catholic. Paarsurrey is my brother in humanity. I respect him so much. I even admire his faith to his religion no matter how different to mine.

 

[swariffin]

I have no affiliation with Islam.

Many believers die for their faith. Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus die for their faith all the time. As a matter of fact, Muslims are dying for their faith every day now, as suicide bombers. They are murderers–and martyrs. Terrible, but there it is. Dying for something doesn’t make it true.

Dear 1234,

I don’t know what you have in mind. Christian martyrs when they die, they took no one but themselves. The suicide bombers (regardless what religion background they have) took other people’ live with them. That is a huge difference, and they are no martyrs.

 

[paarsurrey]

I dismiss the Jesus Seminar folks outright without hearing their argument because they deny that there have ever been any miracles at all.

Hi

I don’t think one should be justified by denying summarily what others say. I would never say that you should believe everything they (Jesus Seminar) say, but you should be able to sift truth from the untruth if you are a believer in truth and with sound arguments otherwise , I am sorry to say, you might not be termed unbiased. I don’t think you would like that for you.

Thanks

 

[Stephen0]

Paarsurrey, Paarsurrey, please do yourself a favor and read Acts 2:14-41 carefully. For to understand this chapter is to understand the birth and spread of Christianity. What do we have unstated and stated in the context of this chapter in the New Testament? We have eleven unschooled men who were frightend for their lives sake hiding in the upper room during a festival that drew foreign speaking Jews back to Jersulem. Naturally, among this large crowd you had a fair number of locals who had a vested interest in seeing that Jesus the blasphemer had died and so they made sure that the crucifixion that they had observed was completed before the body was taken away. This is because the Sanhedrin had already feared that some sort of trickery would occur after Jesus’s death. Strange thing happens, for the one that Mohammad likes to call the Advocate or Comforter appears as tongues of fire and with this Holy Spirit comes our birth as a Church. Results: these eleven mostly uneducated and marked men now felt comfortable enough to start to boldly speak of Jesus in languages totally unknown to them that even these foreign visitors realize is a miracle.
This really got their attention and so Peter was then able to take center stage and convert over 3,000 of them. How does he do this? In several ways that related to your post for to some he reminds them of the Old Testament prophesies related to Jesus as the Messiah, who had eternal life. To those who had been present at the crucifixion, he reminds them of what they had done in killing Jesus. Please recall that Peter felt that Jesus had been murdered and was stone dead. In fact, he was present when Jesus entered the sealed upper room, where all present feared that he was a ghost. So, you have unsympathtic observers converting and becoming better witnesses than the apostles in confirming Christ death. who now convert due to a miraculous event.
Now, Paarsurrey, can you explain to me why Mohammed states in the Koran that the New Testament of his time told the truth and could be believed when the above portion of the New Testament clearly denies some Surahs in the Koran? Naturally, I am aware that Moslems say that it is only since Mohammed’s time that the Christian bible has been tampered with and corrupted. However, since the 1700’s archeologist and bible scholars have come into possession of authenticated Christian New Testament bibles dating from the 2nd and 3rd century that prove that the Christian Bible remains uncorrupted and true to the original gospels from way before Mohammed’s time. (Besides this there are other scientific means to prove that the New Testament has remained uncorrupted throughout the ages). Please continue to ask your questions for I sense a sincere struggling son of God trying to probe for the Truth and may you find it and may it further enrich your life and spiritual growth.

 

[Stephen0]

Paarsurrey, sorry, but I forgot to mention that this Jesus who came through the walls of the upper room was the same person who went through the crucifixion for he possessed all the deep wound marks in his hands and feet and SIDE. So we can assume that all those present including the 11 apostles and his mother would have known that this was the real Jesus Christ and not an imposter. Remember, that the wound in his side was open for he offered to have Thomas put his hand into the wound, which means that the wound hadn’t healed shut and would probably have bled on a normal person with the intrusion of a person’s hand but not in this case with Jesus. Besides how could a regular human being have walked from the grave site or at least across town, then up the stairs, through walls and stood in front of a group with the nail holes through the feet? Haven’t we all cut the bottom of our feet and attempted to walk and reacted from what seemed like unbearable pain?
Furthermore, the nails pierced through his wrist and not the middle of his hands, which means that the nerves to his fingers would have been permanently damaged and that a human being’s finger mobility would have been destroyed and he wouldn’t have been able to grasp anything to eat with such stubs as he did when he asked them for food to show that he was no ghost and could eat like they could.
Please be aware that many of us can be far more sceptical of our religion than members of your faith can be of yours. Some of us have dissected our religion and examined it in detail and will even argued over its contents and truths. However like “doubting Thomas” it only helps to strengthens our faith and makes it grow stronger.
For at least myself, show me a good argument opposed to my beliefs and I find it stimulating to dig into it. For me personally, Jesus is the truth and there is nothing to fear from examining anything that is true. For it tends to lead you to him. Be careful! you seem determined to probe for the truth. May your angel guide you on the journey and may God give you his light for guidance. By the way, Google “Holy Light” and see what you can make out of it for it sure mirrors some of the event of Penecost as describle in Acts:2:1-4 only this is occurring on every Holy Saturday at Christ tomb. Is it true? I sense that it is because of the thousands of people who see it every year and talk about it. However I would like to confirm it for myself by being there.

 

[txsoldier94]

Stephen,

Well said!

Mik

 

[ralphinal]

Hi

I don’t think one should be justified by denying summarily what others say. I would never say that you should believe everything they (Jesus Seminar) say, but you should be able to sift truth from the untruth if you are a believer in truth and with sound arguments otherwise , I am sorry to say, you might not be termed unbiased. I don’t think you would like that for you.

Thanks

Let me exsplain it this way. If a person came to you and claimed to be a Muslim and represent the Faith of Islam, and then told you that they believed that Muhammid did not recieve the Koran from the angel and that nothing that he taught was devinely sent, would you accept him as a Muslim? I think not. You may accept him as a historian, if his facts are correct. You may study his words as a person, but you would put no stock into what he said about your faith.

How do I know that you are Muslim? First, you claimed it. Second, you post Muslim beliefs that can be verified. Third, you post links to your sect’s website so that everyone can verify its claims. Finally, you have never shown yourself to be a lier or deciever of any sort. I can take you at your words. Now, at times what you say is different tahn other Muslims. That does not make you less Muslim. If I claim to be Muslim, however, and hold to my current ideas of faith, I am no Muslim.

I will study what they say as historians. I will study what they say as people. I will not accept them as Christian experts because they are not Christians.

I hope this helps. I am not baised against them as scholars, but as experts on a faith that they are not truely parts of. It is the same reason that I ask you what Islam teaches and not simply going by what non-Muslims say

 

[paarsurrey]

I will study what they say as historians. I will study what they say as people. I will not accept them as Christian experts because they are not Christians.
I hope this helps. I am not baised against them as scholars, but as experts on a faith that they are not truely parts of. It is the same reason that I ask you what Islam teaches and not simply going by what non-Muslims say

Hi

There I agree with you.

Thanks