R
Redbandito
Guest
So, are you saying works are necessary for our salvation?
- Status
R
Redbandito
Guest
Not by our own merit, but God’s grace makes us worthy. He transforms us.
If “to believe is to obey, (and) to have faith is to obey”, how can this be a ONE-TIME thing. Kendy, I mean this with all due respect, but that makes no sense. To believe is not a one-time event and then you’re cool. It is a lifetime walk with Christ. Nowhere in Scripture does it teach us that we can just believe one time, without endurance, and we will be saved. The Scripture teaches that we must “persevere to the end”. If that is the case, “OSAS” cannot be. By your own definition of faith, OSAS cannot be. God is merciful to those who are faithful. That does not mean that those who are faithful are perfect. It simply means that they continue to persevere in obedience and repentance to God. With the number of people who convert to Christianity with that initial passion, and then when that passion dies away they depart, I find it impossible to see how one could claim OSAS. Jesus said we don’t even know what will happen tomorrow. The point is that belief is not a one time event. The Scripture absolutely does not teach OSAS. The Scripture teaches security for those who continue to believe and obey til the end. That is not a one time event.
For starters, most Protestants I know actually prefer the argument that Paul means “disqualifying” himself as a preacher, not from Heaven. That is certainly a poor defense. Your’s is a little better, but still runs into the same problem. The context does not support your exegesis. The race we run is the race toward salvation, not rewards. Paul supports this by saying, “we do it to win the crown that will last forever”. This is clearly referring to eternal life. The prize does not suggest rewards. It says “THE prize”. The prize is eternal life. This is the only interpretation that makes any sense of this passage. And btw, while Paul is confident, he states elsewhere that “He cannot even judge himself”. The verse you are referring to speaks to martyrdom, which brings in a whole other topic. And as for your question, perhaps the reason Paul “knew” where he was going is precisely because he had been “striving for it”.
This is just begging the question. How do we know if we are one of the ones that say “Lord, Lord” but don’t enter the kingdom of Heaven? You admit that some people “don’t truly love Him”. Do you think that they believe at their conversion, “I don’t truly love God?” Of course not! “The heart is wickedly deceitful above all things” (Proverbs). Our judge is God, because we can even deceive ourselves. I don’t mean to pick on you, but this is just such an important point to the discussion.
BTW, you are pretty close to being Catholic approved. You do a good job of being honest and representing your views. We still have a little ways to go, but with God’s grace anything is possible.
The issue of authority is really THE issue. All the other issues really fall to wayside when this is properly understood. however, this is not the thread for other issues, so I will leave it at that. Thanks for your prayers.
C
christaddict
Guest
Kendy, it’s getting very confusing here. You said that you believe in ‘once saved always saved’, perfect! From the example, you quoted that God did promise you that, right? Now, I won’t ask you where is it written in the Bible. I’m sure you will quote John 3:16 among others. Ok let’s come to John 3: 16, what’s the word prominent here ‘beleive’ right? those who believe in Him shall have etertnal life. I don’t disagree to that. Now, you said to believe is to obey, we are almost there … lets get to the grammar; obeyed (past tense), obey (present) … now we are talking about the present … you and I obey to Him … now to the symantecs … the act of obeying is obedience, and the meaning here is …
obedience
n 1: the act of obeying; dutiful or submissive behavior with respect to another person [syn: obeisance] [ant: disobedience] 2: the trait of being willing to obey [ant: disobedience] 3: behavior intended to please your parents; “their children were never very strong on obedience”; “he went to law school out of respect for his father’s wishes” [syn: respect]
Source: WordNet
I am through with that … Now the result here is: to believe is to obey and to obey is to believe … faith and works go hand in hand … what if I say I believe yet don’t obey … that’s where the devil comes to picture … temptations are proof … submitting to them is real proof … St. Paul says in his humbleness that he is doing what he is not supposed to do and what he is supposed to do he doesn’t do it. I too will take his place in saying that … but I’ve hope … I’ve hope in Christ.
“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been tried, he will receive the crown of life which GOD has promised to those who love Him.” Jam 1:12
As obedience is the past, present and the future, so is the salvation
Now coming to Paul’s race
“…but I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps after preaching to others I myself should be rejected.”
1Cor 9:27
If he is knows where he is going, why should he want to chastise his body … what is he preaching? the promise of salvation … what is he talking about when he says rejection? he means salvation. Simple.
Then there is Rom 11:22, “See, then, the goodness and the severity of GOD: His severity towards those who have fallen, but the goodness of GOD towards you if you abide in His goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”
“Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.” 1Cor 10:12
“I have confidence in you the Lord, that you will not think otherwise; but he who disturbs you will bear the penalty, whoever he may be.” Gal 5:10
Who can ignore Matt 25:31-46, where the shepherd will separate the sheep from the goats and the righteous will receive their reward but the accursed will depart into the everlasting fire?
“…but he who has persevered to the end will be saved.” Matt 10:22, 24:13
Notice that these verses do not say that we are saved but that we will be saved…future tense. What does “persevered” mean? Why should anyone have to worry about perseverance if they are already saved?
Now we must read this next verse yet again to answer that question.
“For it is not the man who commends himself that is accepted, but the man whom the Lord commends.”
2Cor 10:18
“I have a clear conscience, but that doesn’t mean I have God’s approval. It is the Lord who cross-examines me.”
1Cor 4:4
Does this sound like ‘once saved alwasys saved’?
C
christaddict
Guest
Oooooh! perfect example! … you said even though you became a believer, you continued to struggle with a serious sin … now comes the explanation more clearer … you beleived it yet the obedience part didn’t match … there is a struggle … why? and you talked about reconciliation with God … why is reconciliation needed? How do you think that you realised you no longer want to do that?
You said ‘He has graciously granted me eternal security’, you are talking about grace … (to be continued)
R
Redbandito
Guest
This is a really important distinction to be made. We can be confident that we have done everything we can (i.e. Avoided mortal sin, Repented for all sins, Performed works of charity and mercy, Been baptized, Believed and Perservered, etc., etc.), and that God is merciful. However, Paul himself states that he cannot have an absolute assurance. Read 1 Cor 4:2-4. Paul states, “2Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.” Paul makes very clear that he does not even judge himself. He states that while his “conscience is clear” that “does not make (him) innocent”. This is the point I have been trying to make to you the whole time. Paul just makes it a lot better than I can.
W
wpr
Guest
Although I must ask you what you mean about being found worthy. I hope we can agree that we are not worthy.
**Yes, we can in that sense. It would have been better if I had finished the sentence. I place my trust in God to show me mercy. I have no doubt, if I am deemed worthy by His grace, I will be saved. **
Anyway, the question is how binding is that justification. I do believe in once saved always saved, …
**The problem is that OSAS is not biblical. There are too many Scripture passages that contradict it. I refer to the classic Protestant definition. Your personal one may differ.
I cannot see how your views are consistent with OSAS. I beleive if you think it through, pray, and by all means continue to read Scripture, you may see this. I wonder if you see that you are twisted like a pretzel in your views? You are not in harmony with Protestant understanding of OSAS.**
**You do not have to come back to the Catholic Church to see this. **
Secondly, what do we mean by faith. John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.” So, to believe is to obey, to have faith is to obey, to love Him is to obey is His commandments. One is born of the other.
**Amen! Yet, as Paul teaches us putting away our old ways takes a concious effort. Do you see that he reminds the Churches in his care of this through his letters? He says, have faith! But he also says; act and do not continue in your sinfull ways! **
As for Paul’s race. I think protestants often interpret that as Paul not working for his salvation since he already told us that our works were filthy rags, but rather having been redeem, he was striving for greater rewards in heaven.
How can you see “disqaulified” mean he was “striving for greater rewards in heaven”?
**Also, Paul teaches that all good works are not acceptable to God if they are done with a mind to obligate God. Paul, like James and Jesus (Jn 3:20), teaches us that to be under God’s grace our works need to be “done in God”. **
**That is, strive to live a life as Christ called us in humility knowing that no matter what we do we will never be able to earn our way to heaven. Yet, at the same time, conciously doing the best we can to love our God and love our neighbor. **
We can infer that Paul was confident about his salvation because when his life was threaten, he said, “to die is to be with Christ.” Paul knew where he was going. If you know where you are going, why would you strive for it?
**You’ve made my point yourself. “why would he strive for it.” Yet he says he is. I think your verse is out of context, yet I do not recognize it such that I can quickly find it. Can you help me? **
Now, this is where you might say, is this not an invitation to sin? Well, this is where the 6th chapter of Romans rescues us. "Should we continue to sin so that grace may abound? By no means how can we who died in sin go on living in it?
Amen!
That we are no longer enslaved to sin has serious practical implications. By the grace of God, my old nature has been crucified. It is because of this that I produce “good works.”
**I agree. In that if I have faith that places my trust in God, then I can do good works that are “done in God”. **
Allow me to provide an example, for months after I became a believer, I continued to struggle with a serious sin.
**I’m glad that you repented. Taking account contiously of our sinfull ways helps us move closer to God. Think about what you said. You acted to review your actions in life, repented and changed your ways. Your Catholic! (ha ha) I beleive repentance is one aspect that Paul means when he strives like an athlete. **
Another thing to keep in mind is that God is no fool. He wouldn’t grant to eternal security to those who don’t truly love Him
**Amen! **
So, am I catholic-approved?
.
**It is rather more important to be “God approved”. So forget about Catholic. Follow your heart. Search and strive. I sincerely pray the Spirit leads you back to Christ’s Church. We need you. **
While justification was a major cause of contention…,
**Yes, but the OSAS aspect was not an issue with the Lutheran Federation. I do not know about the Evangelical. **
In addition, we are not out of woods yet. There is still the issue of authority, and other things. For example, I just read the the defense of indulgences on this site and I must say, I am not happy camper.
**What is your issue with authority? For example, how is it that you view the NT Canon as trustworthy? It’s a deep subject. As for Indulgences I’m not a worthy teacher. I’ll have to leave that to a more capable apologist than I. **
**Yes, we can in that sense. It would have been better if I had finished the sentence. I place my trust in God to show me mercy. I have no doubt, if I am deemed worthy by His grace, I will be saved. **
Anyway, the question is how binding is that justification. I do believe in once saved always saved, …
**The problem is that OSAS is not biblical. There are too many Scripture passages that contradict it. I refer to the classic Protestant definition. Your personal one may differ.
I cannot see how your views are consistent with OSAS. I beleive if you think it through, pray, and by all means continue to read Scripture, you may see this. I wonder if you see that you are twisted like a pretzel in your views? You are not in harmony with Protestant understanding of OSAS.**
**You do not have to come back to the Catholic Church to see this. **
Secondly, what do we mean by faith. John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.” So, to believe is to obey, to have faith is to obey, to love Him is to obey is His commandments. One is born of the other.
**Amen! Yet, as Paul teaches us putting away our old ways takes a concious effort. Do you see that he reminds the Churches in his care of this through his letters? He says, have faith! But he also says; act and do not continue in your sinfull ways! **
As for Paul’s race. I think protestants often interpret that as Paul not working for his salvation since he already told us that our works were filthy rags, but rather having been redeem, he was striving for greater rewards in heaven.
How can you see “disqaulified” mean he was “striving for greater rewards in heaven”?
**Also, Paul teaches that all good works are not acceptable to God if they are done with a mind to obligate God. Paul, like James and Jesus (Jn 3:20), teaches us that to be under God’s grace our works need to be “done in God”. **
**That is, strive to live a life as Christ called us in humility knowing that no matter what we do we will never be able to earn our way to heaven. Yet, at the same time, conciously doing the best we can to love our God and love our neighbor. **
We can infer that Paul was confident about his salvation because when his life was threaten, he said, “to die is to be with Christ.” Paul knew where he was going. If you know where you are going, why would you strive for it?
**You’ve made my point yourself. “why would he strive for it.” Yet he says he is. I think your verse is out of context, yet I do not recognize it such that I can quickly find it. Can you help me? **
Now, this is where you might say, is this not an invitation to sin? Well, this is where the 6th chapter of Romans rescues us. "Should we continue to sin so that grace may abound? By no means how can we who died in sin go on living in it?
Amen!
That we are no longer enslaved to sin has serious practical implications. By the grace of God, my old nature has been crucified. It is because of this that I produce “good works.”
**I agree. In that if I have faith that places my trust in God, then I can do good works that are “done in God”. **
Allow me to provide an example, for months after I became a believer, I continued to struggle with a serious sin.
**I’m glad that you repented. Taking account contiously of our sinfull ways helps us move closer to God. Think about what you said. You acted to review your actions in life, repented and changed your ways. Your Catholic! (ha ha) I beleive repentance is one aspect that Paul means when he strives like an athlete. **
Another thing to keep in mind is that God is no fool. He wouldn’t grant to eternal security to those who don’t truly love Him
**Amen! **
So, am I catholic-approved?
.**It is rather more important to be “God approved”. So forget about Catholic. Follow your heart. Search and strive. I sincerely pray the Spirit leads you back to Christ’s Church. We need you. **
While justification was a major cause of contention…,
**Yes, but the OSAS aspect was not an issue with the Lutheran Federation. I do not know about the Evangelical. **
In addition, we are not out of woods yet. There is still the issue of authority, and other things. For example, I just read the the defense of indulgences on this site and I must say, I am not happy camper.
**What is your issue with authority? For example, how is it that you view the NT Canon as trustworthy? It’s a deep subject. As for Indulgences I’m not a worthy teacher. I’ll have to leave that to a more capable apologist than I. **
R
Redbandito
Guest
wpr said:
Indulgences deal with the temporal effects of sin. For example, we know Moses is in Heaven because we saw him in the transfiguration. However, Moses’ sin of lack of faith when he hit the rock twice with the staff led to the temporal consequences of not seeing the “Holy Land”. In the same way, our sin has temporal consequences. Indulgences are there to deal with the consequences.
K
Kendy
Guest
Redbandito,
Oh boy,
I believe that the born again transformatiion takes place just once, in the way, I guess that the Catholic Church in one Baptism. While it is not exactly the same, you don’t keep getting born again once you have been born again. However, being born again requires an act of faith submission to the Lordship of Christ, and it is first act of obedience that bestows the grace of God that gives the “power to become children of God.” As for the continued of obedience, I believe that comes through the grace of God which transforms us so that we might “be holy as He is holy.” To be born again is to love Him, to love Him is to obey Him. You can’t have one without the other… although one can go through periods of rebelliousness, but those are never fun for the believer because those He loves, He disciplines.
You make a valid point about the possibility of self-deception. I think most evangelicals would agree with you that many people who call Him Lord are not one of His. Afterall, it’s why they try to convert catholics. Besides people who are dishonest to others, there are those who are dishonest to themselves. Whille I can never know for sure the state of someone else salvation, I certainly know people for whom this may be true because they seem complete undisturbed by blatant disobdedience to His commandments.
But I guess where we depart is this, I believe firmly having faith in Christ (which for clarity’s sake let us describe as having submitted to the Lordship of Christ), I can be confident that God will faith to His promise of salvation.
While I will continue to strive to live a Christian life, if I were to die today and God asked me why should I let you into my heaven, I will not cite, the money that I have given to charity, or my sexual chastity, or my church attendance. I will reply, “I have accepted the redemptive work of Christ death of the cross, and I have submitted to His Lordship, which is the means by which I can access Your offer of grace.” I wouldn’t even be this long-winded, but I elaborate for your sake. Anyway, I think to say anything else would talk away from the cross, and brings the emphasis to my works, which can never bring salvation.
Kendy
J
jpete79
Guest
To say that once saved always saved is unbiblical is incorrect. There are numerous passages that support the idea. There are also numerous passages that are against it. Am I saying that the Bible contradicts itself? No! I am saying we are human and thus very susceptible to misinterpretation.
For example instead of John 3:16 look at John 10
John 10:26-30 - “You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
That sounds pretty much like once saved always saved to me.
What about John 6
John 6:37-40 - “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Lets look at other verses
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption
Now only to be fair there are many more passages that support the idea but here are some against it.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
This is huge though because it is saying once they fall away they can never be brought back to repentence. This passage is the most cited passage to the argument against once saved always saved.
Matthew 7:19-23 - "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
Here is one we read in this thread.
1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
And again there are many more passages.
Both views are shown to be Biblical but unfortunately due to our human nature we cannot fully comprehend which is correct. Here is a good source (it is a Protestant source) that argues points from both sides
epm.org/articles/security.html
I hope you enjoy it, the summary at the end is really well done about strengths, weaknesses and his position
For example instead of John 3:16 look at John 10
John 10:26-30 - “You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
That sounds pretty much like once saved always saved to me.
What about John 6
John 6:37-40 - “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Lets look at other verses
Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption
Now only to be fair there are many more passages that support the idea but here are some against it.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
This is huge though because it is saying once they fall away they can never be brought back to repentence. This passage is the most cited passage to the argument against once saved always saved.
Matthew 7:19-23 - "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”
Here is one we read in this thread.
1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
And again there are many more passages.
Both views are shown to be Biblical but unfortunately due to our human nature we cannot fully comprehend which is correct. Here is a good source (it is a Protestant source) that argues points from both sides
epm.org/articles/security.html
I hope you enjoy it, the summary at the end is really well done about strengths, weaknesses and his position
K
Kendy
Guest
Let me try one more time.
I think this discussion on obedience highlights one of things I experienced when I was in the RCC, which is we protestants called legalism. By legalism, we don’t mean you have too many laws since I think most of the rules are the same, but rather there seems a reliance on your own strength.
There’s a protestant song, which goes, “by the grace of God, I will serve the Lord.” And there’s a pentacostal minister in Chicago who has written a book on the importance of grace is for obedience.
If not for the grace that I receive upon being born again, I could not remain faithful. However, upon receiving Christ, I am empowered by grace through the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life.
I believe that once you are saved that God marks you, seals you, preserves you, and protects you. It is by the power of God that you are able to run the race.
But more importantly, let me say it again. You have to believe this to be a Christian. If you prefer to feel insecure about your salvation, you will not be damned although you might experience less peace and joy.
Kendy
I think this discussion on obedience highlights one of things I experienced when I was in the RCC, which is we protestants called legalism. By legalism, we don’t mean you have too many laws since I think most of the rules are the same, but rather there seems a reliance on your own strength.
There’s a protestant song, which goes, “by the grace of God, I will serve the Lord.” And there’s a pentacostal minister in Chicago who has written a book on the importance of grace is for obedience.
If not for the grace that I receive upon being born again, I could not remain faithful. However, upon receiving Christ, I am empowered by grace through the Holy Spirit to live the Christian life.
I believe that once you are saved that God marks you, seals you, preserves you, and protects you. It is by the power of God that you are able to run the race.
But more importantly, let me say it again. You have to believe this to be a Christian. If you prefer to feel insecure about your salvation, you will not be damned although you might experience less peace and joy.
Kendy
K
Kendy
Guest
Of course, I struggle with sin. Being born again is the beginning of God’s grace not the end. While I was upset about this sin being in my life, I was never worried about going to Hell. Rather, I was worried about not living my Christian life to its fullest capacity by being weighted down by this sin. I also need to reconcile with God so that my prayer life and fellowship with the Spirit is not hindered. There are times when I come to the Lord in prayer, and I have a distinct sense of God saying, “I don’t want hear bout anything else until you deal sin your life.” And then sometimes, I am like fine, I am going to sleep, but eventually I come around because I miss being able to talk to God.
Also, there are two important lesson to take out of this. Before I was a believer, I considered this harmless pleasure, afterwards, it became a burden. Like I said, the Holy Spirit is a nag. Second, because I am born again I now have the desire to obey and can call upon God’s grace to help me do it. What I mean by I no longer desire to do this is just that. It no longer tempts. I am still tempted by other things but I have really been delivered from this.
But you are right that the Christian life is a process by which we learn to fully submit and obey. But there’s no magic point by which you can now go to heaven. Once you have been initiated in that process you are saved.
Kendy
Kendy
K
Kendy
Guest
WPR
If you are asking for the verse where Paul says to die is to be with Christ. I can’t remember it either. Maybe, someone else can help us.
As for my striving to remove sin in my life, I really have to disabuse you guys of this vision of protestants sitting around enjoying their sin because they have eternal security. I don’t know who you are talking to but they are wrong, and if that’s their attitude, they are not saved because they don’t really love God, but they want to use Him for personal fire insurance.
Now, what my issue with authority. I don’t necessarily hate authority. In fact you would be happy to know that I think there is way too much independence in evangelical congregational churches. Not to mention independent churches. When Oral Roberts says that God says he would take Him home if He does not raise a certain amount of money, I really wish there was someone to excommunicate Him.
However, I don’t think the church has as much authority that it claims. When I look at the NT, I see no evidence that Peter thought he was in charge of everybody. The only person who seems to come close to that is Paul.
Anyway, I think the church puts itself in a serious pickle when it says you are required to believe all the RCC’s teaching because there are a whole lot of them. And it insists that it is right on in everyone one of those issues, not just salvation or the trinity, but on Marian devotion, the Saints, indulgences.
I need to refine this further, and perhaps, I will once you poke holes in my argument.
btw, I do believe that the Holy Spirit guided the churches selection of the new testament. I have too or my faith would be in shambles. I just don’t know that the church never resists the spirit. Like the inquisition, I hope we can agree that that wasn’t the Holy Spirit’s doing.
Kendy
If you are asking for the verse where Paul says to die is to be with Christ. I can’t remember it either. Maybe, someone else can help us.
As for my striving to remove sin in my life, I really have to disabuse you guys of this vision of protestants sitting around enjoying their sin because they have eternal security. I don’t know who you are talking to but they are wrong, and if that’s their attitude, they are not saved because they don’t really love God, but they want to use Him for personal fire insurance.
Now, what my issue with authority. I don’t necessarily hate authority. In fact you would be happy to know that I think there is way too much independence in evangelical congregational churches. Not to mention independent churches. When Oral Roberts says that God says he would take Him home if He does not raise a certain amount of money, I really wish there was someone to excommunicate Him.
However, I don’t think the church has as much authority that it claims. When I look at the NT, I see no evidence that Peter thought he was in charge of everybody. The only person who seems to come close to that is Paul.
Anyway, I think the church puts itself in a serious pickle when it says you are required to believe all the RCC’s teaching because there are a whole lot of them. And it insists that it is right on in everyone one of those issues, not just salvation or the trinity, but on Marian devotion, the Saints, indulgences.
I need to refine this further, and perhaps, I will once you poke holes in my argument
.btw, I do believe that the Holy Spirit guided the churches selection of the new testament. I have too or my faith would be in shambles. I just don’t know that the church never resists the spirit. Like the inquisition, I hope we can agree that that wasn’t the Holy Spirit’s doing.
Kendy
K
Kendy
Guest
Are you saying, it’s ok to hold either views?
Kendy
J
jpete79
Guest
Personally, I believe as long as you believe first and foremost that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and submit to His authority than you can believe either.
If someone believes in Christ first and foremost and believes that their salvation can be lost; they may persevere all the more in him. It may bring them closer to Him because of fear of losing something that is a wonderful joyous gift.
If someone believes in once saved always saved, one can love Christ more because of the belief that we will always be in His hands under his protection.
On the other hand if someone believes that their salvation can be lost, they may continually fear that they will be lost and get depressed. Just as once saved always saved can bring forth false assurance (meaning someone believes they are saved and therefore openly sins; this was the practice of the Nicolatians that Christ told the Church of Ephesus about in Revelation 2. They believed that we are saved by Grace and therefore are permitted to sin as we are still to live in the world).
I believe its not the belief but what stems from it on this point. We agree how salvation is acheived (through submission to Jesus Christ). Its what we do with that submission that matters.
God Bless
R
Redbandito
Guest
Kendy, both of your responses about obedience show that you still lack clarity on our position. We agree that obedience comes through grace. BUT, I must still cooperate with that grace. God does not turn me into a slave when I am born again, He frees me as He would a son. The grace you are talking about leaves no room to fall from it. That isn’t freedom, and that isn’t love. C.S.Lewis talks a lot about this in Mere Christianity. God is love. To enslave isn’t loving. We must choose Him freely. If He forces us to persist in His love, that isn’t love at all.
You state that we cannot fall once we have accepted Him once. If that is the case, how would we stop being able to choose or REJECT Him freely after the fact? Does God remove our free will after being born again? Your previous responses don’t really answer the questions posed. You try to answer by further defining what you mean by obedience and you get yourself into even more trouble. Even our initial response and justification comes from God’s grace. Thus, saying that further obedience comes from God’s grace has not answered anything. The question is, that IF this obedience is required, then how can it be a one time thing?
I will repeat this again. We don’t rely upon our own strength. We know that it is God’s grace that allows us to do anything good. HOWEVER, we must still cooperate with this grace. If I freely choose to reject this grace after I have been born again, then I can fall from that state of grace. This has to be true, otherwise you have rejected free will.
R
Redbandito
Guest
Kendy, are you saying that the Nicolatians were wrong? Are you saying that if we persist in sin after receiving the grace of God in baptism that we fall? If so, then that opposes OSAS. If not, I wonder how you can square it with the very verse you used to support this.
J
jpete79
Guest
First off, Kendy didn’t mention the Nicolatians, I did.
And it is impossible to say whether or not the Nicolatians were right or wrong because who’s to say the Nicolatians were “saved” in the first place? Who’s to say there weren’t a few believers in the group that left the authority to Christ?
The biggest problem with this argument of once saved always saved is we don’t know the outcome of the argument to begin with. We don’t know if any of the Nicolatians are in Heaven, we don’t know if anyone who ever believed has been condemned; and therefore we cannot know until eternity whether we can or can’t fall from God’s Grace. Only God can search our hearts and know our thoughts; therefore only God knows if our hearts are on Him or not. That is why the emphasis shouldn’t be on whether we’re saved but on submission to the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
R
Redbandito
Guest
Game, Set and Match. I agree with everything in your post. You made my argument for me . Thank you. Seriously, this is the whole point I have been making all along. We can’t know for certain. Thus, that is not an absolute “assurance”.
K
Kendy
Guest
Hey, I just wanted to note for everyone that I meant you don’t have to believe in OSOS to be a Christian. I just wanted to clarify that that was a typo. Sorry.
Kendy
K
Kendy
Guest
Your points are very valid and I will consider them. I do think we need to cooperate with God’s grace. I don’t know if you read the article that Jim gave us the link to. The problem will falling from grace is then you must be born again a second time or a third or fourth time. That’s certainly problematic.
Kendy
- Status