Killing Your Kids

[AmyS]

Norwich:

If you’ve never been there I suggest you get on your knees and thank God instead of trying to be his judge and jury.

Who made that type of judgement?

 

[wabrams]

Brad,

Try this one first:

Hardness of Heart, Hardness of Life by Larry Milner. The author is/was an anthropologist. According to the research, infanticide has been in every culture for various reasons and at times the rates spike.

 

[wabrams]

Norwich,

Sometimes you have a lot of good things to say, but let me stop you on one point: gun culture/gun control. People who legally own guns aren’t very likely to start going out killing people for fun. You can tell me all you want about the no gun laws in Europe, but the murder rate didn’t drop when the gun laws were passed. So, let’s drop the whole gun culture issue.

 

[fix]

AmyS:

Who made that type of judgement?

No one. It is the ramblings of one who is self righteous to another he claims is self righteous. A bit circular…

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

AmyS:

Who made that type of judgement?

Nobody said it Amy:nope: Certain posters like to slam people at every given opportunity and when they are confronted on it the confronters are labled judgemental.The good samaritan in reverse more compassion on the beaters than the one who was beat.God Bless

 

[fix]

Lisa4Catholics:

The good samaritan in reverse more compassion on the beaters than the one who was beat.God Bless

Well said. I must remember that.

 

[Norwich]

Theres obviously a lot of sand in America with all the head burying going on.

You are well aware of what I meant, if you’ve never had to chose between abortion and what you may consider the alternatives (whatever they may be) you cannot empathise with their plight. Just be thankful you’ve never had to make their choices.

 

[fix]

Norwich:

Theres obviously a lot of sand in America with all the head burying going on.

You are well aware of what I meant, if you’ve never had to chose between abortion and what you may consider the alternatives (whatever they may be) you cannot empathise with their plight. Just be thankful you’ve never had to make their choices.

What is the point of all this? It is as if saying if one has never faced a certain situation that one may never draw an appropriate conclusion. Somehow, unless one has faced every single circumstance possible, one can’t hold a valid view, and even worse, those that have faced such a situation hold infallible judgements about the issue that no one may challenge.

Do I have it right, now?

 

[Lance]

Europeans accept responsibility for their past actions? Get serious! How many Germans accept responsibility for the Holocaust? Seems I remember most of them saying, “I was not a Nazi and I was only following orders.” How many French accept responsibility for deporting the French Jews to Germany? Am I wrong in remembering that most said they knew nothing about it? How many Englishmen accept responsibility for the slave trade they were in in the 19th century? How many French accept responsibility for driving Ho Chi Mien into the arms of the communist? Who is accepting responsibilty for all the evils colonialism has and is causing?
From this side of the pond it seems that if something goes wrong in Europe it was somebody else and it was only a small minority who did not reflect the views of the majority. If something goes wrong over here we are all responsible forever.

 

[Richardols]

Lance:

If something goes wrong over here we are all responsible forever.

Sure. But, compare that with seeing how many Americans want Europeans not just to be grateful forever for our joining them in fighting Germany during WWII, but to owe us forever for it.

 

[Lance]

Richardols:

Sure. But, compare that with seeing how many Americans want Europeans not just to be grateful forever for our joining them in fighting Germany during WWII, but to owe us forever for it.

I am trying to remember how many European countries repaid their war debt to the US. I could be wrong but I think Sweden did.

 

[Richardols]

Lance:

I am trying to remember how many European countries repaid their war debt to the US. I could be wrong but I think Sweden did.

No. Sweden was a neutral in World War II. Finland is always held out as the only country to have repaid its World War** I **debt.

We shall see if Iraq will now pay off its debts. Both the US and Canada are willing to delay Iraqi debt rescheduling. And 50 years from now, folks will nevertheless complain that it never repaid its debts.

 

[wabrams]

Lance:

I am trying to remember how many European countries repaid their war debt to the US. I could be wrong but I think Sweden did.

We didn’t pay our war debt back to Europe after the Revolution.

 

[Lisa_N]

Brad:

Interesting. What would be more interesting is the statistics on mothers killing their kids prior to say, 1960.

Actually what would be interesting is to see if there is anything pre or post Roe v Wade that demonstrates any trend. So instead of 1976-2002 all post Roe years, how about the rate of infanticide 1953-1973? Anyone have that? It might be interesting to compare. While the charts are interesting they have no bearing in Brad’s premise that the abortion laws have created an overall devaluation of ‘useless’ life.

LIsa N

 

[Richardols]

Lisa N:

Actually what would be interesting is to see if there is anything pre or post Roe v Wade that demonstrates any trend.

Perhaps interesting, but the trouble is that statistics can be twisted to corroborate any number of premises.

 

[AmyS]

Richardols:

Perhaps interesting, but the trouble is that statistics can be twisted to corroborate any number of premises.

It also goes off of who’s statistics you trust…

 

[Lance]

wabrams:

We didn’t pay our war debt back to Europe after the Revolution.

19,000 American men dead in 31 days at The Battle of the Bulge alone. It has been repayed with compounded interest.

 

[Meggie]

And besides the fact that statistics could be skwed there are also coverd up deaths…ones that are “accidental” or “natural”(like death due to astsma, diabetes or other chronic, moniter needed illness)

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

Your right of course, Europes past was nothing to be proud of. Past acts have created great wrongs in the world, but, there is one difference. Most Europeans are willing to accept responsibility for those acts and have tried over recent years to put the problems behind them, they don’t (as a general rule) constantly try to justify themselves, they hold their hands up and admit wrong doing.

That is an interesting perspective. I think some would disagree with you - both Americans and non-Americans.

Norwich:

I pointed up other areas where the culture of murder and killing in America may come from, what happened? somebody actually crowed about “Liking my Gun” and then you wonder why people take life so easily? Tell me, where is the need for a gun in the Catholic Church? You rail against a single issue, abortion, but condone many other areas of killing, how can you justify that? You talk about how children must be protected, then have films and television showing death and destruction on a massive scale totally desensitising your kids, how can you justify that?

Most of the people on this forum are opposed to the violence in movies and TV as well as abortion.

Norwich:

I make a quote from GB Shaw and am accused of anti Americanism but, you were blind to the fact that the comment was made by another, namely GB Shaw, was he anti American? and if so why? Could it be that many people are anti American, if so why? For those that don’t like to look at themselves they immediately go on the defensive, “I don’t listen to them their just anti American” some are more realistic and may start to question why so many people are criticising them, "maybe there is some truth to what is being said".

No matter how many times you say it, it doesn’t make “so many people”. There are a great many people that like what America stands for. One indicator is it is the country the largest amount of immigrants want to come to. Some don’t like America. Some do. Some don’t like Great Britian. Some do. Some don’t like China. Some do.

Norwich:

If this woman is shown in a court of law to be legally responsible for her childs death, then the punishment of the courts should be imposed but, it is for the courts to judge, not me, not you, not anyone. In the fullness of time she will also have to face Gods judgement and that is something none of us can speculate on.

If she killed her kids, she is responsible. But the question posed had nothing to do with guilt. It has to do with whether the legalization of abortion has lead to an increase of women killling their post-birth children.

Norwich:

As for abortion, some of the women take that route as an easy answer, others because they know no different and many in shear desperation. I do not and will not condone abortion, it is an anathema to God and man alike and yes, it is murder in the eyes of the Church but, what I will not do is prejudge womens reasons for seaking an abortion, they are too many and too varied. In their eyes it is not as simple as you like to make it and God forbid I should ever be in the position of some of these people in having to make that choice. Fortunately now I never will be but, I still have children and grandchildren and I fear for them as much as I fear for any woman or child placed in a position of having to make such an impossible choice.

Life decisions are rarely simple and often complex. Life is never an impossible choice. If a father loses his job, doesn’t think he’ll be able to find another, crashes his car on the way home, and has a terrible headache and 3 kids, is it ok for him to leave the
family and lessen his load? Pretty hard choice correct? Is it impossible to choose rightly? Is that what Jesus taught?

Norwich:

If you’ve never been there I suggest you get on your knees and thank God instead of trying to be his judge and jury.

What is interesting is this thread is not about judging anybody and yet you jump to defending abortion and telling all of us that speak out on it to just shut up and get on our knees. Wasn’t it you that just said abortion is “anathema”? Isn’t that a judgement on the action? Should anathema and other offenses against God just continue because it is impossible not to correct ourselves? Is not the strength of Jesus in the Eucharist and the Word sufficient to keep us from killing?

 

[Brad]

Richardols:

I agree. But, possible doesn’t mean probable. Nevertheless, every restriction of abortion is a step forward.

Lord I believe. Help my unbelief.