Kissing on the lips during the sign of peace

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Bookcat said:
If a husband and wife are kissing on the lips - and then turning and extending hands or a bow to those around them…that can be said to be expressing a “marital affection” in that kiss.

I think it can be argued that those who kiss at this time their spouses are doing so as more of a kind of marital affection not a sign of ecclesial communion or the Theological virtue of Charity.

I know when I kissed my wife when we where first married at that point such was not a “ritual kiss” as you called it. Even though I also intended it to be a sign of peace…
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An erotic kiss? :confused: In church? :confused:

OK, whatever, I give up. Time for me to exit this thread.
 
malphono said:
An erotic kiss? :confused: In church? :confused:

OK, whatever, I give up. Time for me to exit this thread. :
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Kissing a spouse on the lips. Not kissing others on the lips…but extending the hand or a bow etc…why did they kiss the spouse?
 
ProVobis said:
From what I’ve seen of the Maronite practice, I really wish that would catch on in the Latin Rite. That is, if they’re going to have it at all, because it seems just like turning around in pews seems so unnatural and disconnected with the entire congregation.
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Catholic newbie wading in here - I find the rite of peace unnatural, where some people are nodding, my boyfriend’s family keeps trying to kiss me on the cheek, my grandmother is bowing like she is Japanese, and others are throwing the peace sign or shaking my hand. As an outsider, it’s confusing and yes, it feels like it doesn’t fit with the rest of the mass.

I get that there is a cultural component to it all, but as that seems to vary so much from family to family in the pews, it makes us RCIA attendees very confused on what we’re to be doing. Like ProVobis said, it doesn’t seem to fit, but if it is going to happen, I wish there was a more standard way to do things. Frankly, I don’t feel peace or welcoming, I always end up feeling awkward, which isn’t really the point, I don’t think.
 
Bookcat said:
If a husband and wife are kissing on the lips - and then turning and extending hands or a bow to those around them…that can be said to be expressing a “marital affection” in that kiss.

I think it can be argued that those who kiss at this time their spouses are doing so as more of a kind of marital affection not a sign of ecclesial communion or the Theological virtue of Charity.

And how others would view it around them.
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I’m a pretty Traditional guy (e.g. I’d rather have the sign of peace completely omitted for the laity, like in the EF) but I have to say so what?

What’s so bad about a little marital affection? The sign of peace is such a free for all in most parishes, that a little marital affection is a vast improvement.

God Bless
 
alexandratm said:
Catholic newbie wading in here - I find the rite of peace unnatural, where some people are nodding, my boyfriend’s family keeps trying to kiss me on the cheek, my grandmother is bowing like she is Japanese, and others are throwing the peace sign or shaking my hand. As an outsider, it’s confusing and yes, it feels like it doesn’t fit with the rest of the mass.

I get that there is a cultural component to it all, but as that seems to vary so much from family to family in the pews, it makes us RCIA attendees very confused on what we’re to be doing. Like ProVobis said, it doesn’t seem to fit, but if it is going to happen, I wish there was a more standard way to do things. Frankly, I don’t feel peace or welcoming, I always end up feeling awkward, which isn’t really the point, I don’t think.
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You’re very astute. It doesn’t fit. Certainly not before the Agnus Dei, and the reception of Communion. It didn’t exist in the old Mass.

It’s a badly executed attempt at forced community. It should just be eliminated, or if not, moved to the beginning of Mass.

God Bless
 
Bookcat said:
Kissing a spouse on the lips. Not kissing others on the lips…but extending the hand or a bow etc…why did they kiss the spouse?
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Because it’s your spouse. We greet people of different relationship differently. That’s the way we do things.

Just like you might kiss the ring of a bishop, but wouldn’t kiss your mother-in-law’s ring.

God Bless
 
OraLabora said:
No, I’m reading that people have a different opinion on what constitutes a “sober manner”.

If the Church wants us to follow a strict interpretation of what it means, she should close that loophole and define it.

I live in the French-speaking part of Canada, and we may have a different interpretation of what that constitutes. Plenty of kisses and hugs between spouses in the pews around me.

Liturgically, I don’t think this is the fight to pick. Clearly there are enough liturgical abuses that are in open defiance to the Missal and SC, that an intentional or unintentional grey area over how to give the sign of the peace should be a minor concern.
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The Canadian GIRM says
  1. There follows the Rite of Peace, by which the Church entreats peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family, and the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament.
    In the dioceses of Canada, the sign of peace is given by a handshake or a bow. However, it is appropriate that each person offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner82.
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The French PGMR for Canada (which won’t go into effect until the new French translation of the Roman Missal is promulgated) says
"Dans les diocèses du Canada, le signe de la paix est donné en se serrant la main our par une inclination de la tête. Il convient cependant que chacun souhaite la paix de manière sobre et uniquement à ceux qui l’entourent.
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Bookcat said:
If a husband and wife are kissing on the lips - and then turning and extending hands or a bow to those around them…that can be said to be expressing a “marital affection” in that kiss.

I think it can be argued that those who kiss at this time their spouses are doing so as more of a kind of marital affection not a sign of ecclesial communion or the Theological virtue of Charity.

And how others would view it around them.
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And I think that it can be argued that you do not know what is in the mind of those spouses any more than you know what it is in the mind of the one who shakes hands with one and bows toward another.
 
Bookcat said:
Kissing a spouse on the lips. Not kissing others on the lips…but extending the hand or a bow etc…why did they kiss the spouse?
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Quite frankly I don’t see the point of continuing an argument on what is essentially a point of prudential judgement in the interpretation of “sober manner”. People are talking past each other trying to convince each other that they’re right, but there’s no convincing to be done because the Church has left the laity with considerable latitude in interpreting this.

How does continuing the argument lead to a spirit of peace among brother and sister Catholics? :confused: Is it not rather setting up an occasion of sin by generating the potential for rancour?

One of the points of the sign of the peace is to be reconciled with your neighbour. How is on-line arguing on a point of prudential judgement contributing to every day peace and charity? Shouldn’t the spirit of peace and charity extend beyond that brief moment in the Mass?

You’ve given your interpretation. I’ve given mine. Others have given theirs. Now can we drop it and just have a big extra-liturgical chaste Catholic hug fest? 😉
 
Phemie said:
The Canadian GIRM says

In the dioceses of Canada, the sign of peace is given by a handshake or a bow
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Hence those in Canada would give either a handshake or a make a bow.

In another place it* could *be specified “handshake or other gesture” or “kiss on the cheeks” etc

Or in another place it may be specified “the sign of peace is to be a simple bow”
 
Bookcat said:
Kissing a spouse on the lips. Not kissing others on the lips…but extending the hand or a bow etc…why did they kiss the spouse?
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They kiss the spouse because a kiss can be an appropriate and acceptable sign of peace between spouses. It is generally not, in American culture, an acceptable sign of peace amongst acquaintances or strangers, even brothers and sisters in Christ.

Until such a time when the Church clarifies this ritual beyond what has been stated in the GIRM, we are free to use our own judgement regarding this. If this were really an issue, surely you could quote some source other than the opinion of a Catholic Answers apologist? Something with some authority?
 
Bookcat said:
Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers Apologist

Is it approriate to kiss your spouse or hug someone during the handshake of peace?
It’s called the “sign of peace” and the rubrics for the Mass provide:

As for the sign of peace to be given, the manner is to be established by conferences of bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples. It is, however, appropriate that each person offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner (GIRM 82).

The sign of peace is not intended to be a time for engaging in public displays of affection, however chastely those PDAs may be exchanged. It is a ritual moment during the Mass, when, as the GIRM indicates:

Quote:
… the Church asks for peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family, and the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the sacrament [of the Eucharist] (ibid).

To hug one’s children, kiss one’s spouse, and then turn and nod and exchange handshakes and peace signs with others, indicates the levels of affection you feel toward others. In other words, you are singling out some people for more lavish displays of affection than others, when the Eucharist is supposed to signify our mutual communion in Christ. While the Church does not explicitly forbid PDAs during the rite of peace, prudence suggests that** a “sober” exchange of peace with one’s fellow congregants excludes hugging and kissing family members**.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=300671&highlight=kiss+of+peace
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babochka said:
we are free to use our own judgement regarding this.
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Within the parameters of the Church -sure. I have not said otherwise. Is a person not permitted to continue to express how they understand the matter? Is this not a forum?
 
Bookcat said:
The main thing I was getting at is that the sign of peace is not a time for expression of “marital affection” or “romantic signs”.

It is Liturgical sign of peace. Part of a rite.

It expresses communion within the Church and the Theological virtue of Charity --as one prepares for Holy Communion.

Now that is going to differ from place to place as noted in the GIRM

GENERAL INSTRUCTION OF THE ROMAN MISSAL

"The Rite of Peace
  1. The Rite of Peace follows, by which the Church asks for peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family, and the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament.
As for the sign of peace to be given, the manner is to be established by Conferences of Bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples. It is, however, appropriate that each person offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner."

---------------------------------------That is the short of it.

And there may even be time where it is mandated by the Bishop for it to not be done in a particular manner -like handshake during a bad flu season. etc
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For what it is worth, I agree with you that it is not the time for marital affection or romantic signs.
 
Bookcat said:
Hence those in Canada would give either a handshake or a make a bow.

In another place it* could *be specified “handshake or other gesture” or “kiss on the cheeks” etc

Or in another place it may be specified “the sign of peace is to be a simple bow”
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I don’t like the “either or”. If you would like to use the bow as your sign and someone with a painful grip extends their hand to you, it can be awkward. I’m all for making the sign a bow. I think a bow would be less problem for everyone. But until that time when the Conference of Bishops determines “the sign” we’ll just have to keep it sober with our own choice of gestures for how each situation presents itself. 😉
 
OraLabora said:
Quite frankly I don’t see the point of continuing an argument on what is essentially a point of prudential judgement in the interpretation of “sober manner”. People are talking past each other trying to convince each other that they’re right, but there’s no convincing to be done because the Church has left the laity with considerable latitude in interpreting this.

How does continuing the argument lead to a spirit of peace among brother and sister Catholics? :confused: Is it not rather setting up an occasion of sin by generating the potential for rancour?

One of the points of the sign of the peace is to be reconciled with your neighbour. How is on-line arguing on a point of prudential judgement contributing to every day peace and charity? Shouldn’t the spirit of peace and charity extend beyond that brief moment in the Mass?

You’ve given your interpretation. I’ve given mine. Others have given theirs. Now can we drop it and just have a big extra-liturgical chaste Catholic hug fest? 😉
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This is a forum - questions get asked and discussed --that is what we are doing. Threads continue - people post a reply and then one replies. Just cause something is discussed does not mean it will depart from charity and peace. Let us all always live by such.
 
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