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thistle
Guest
Where is it written?
Kujo313's Assertions About Catholic Marian Beliefs (Isis!?...Goddess!?)
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Luke 24, but kujo is mistaken. Jesus spoke to the two disciples going to Emmaeus and expounded on the scriptures from the old testament that prophecied about Christ.
Later he appeared to the eleven and He explained Scripture to them. . .but it is not specifically stated that He explained ALL scripture to them. In fact, the Scripture He spoke of could only be the Old Testament as the New Testament had not yet been written.
Later he appeared to the eleven and He explained Scripture to them. . .but it is not specifically stated that He explained ALL scripture to them. In fact, the Scripture He spoke of could only be the Old Testament as the New Testament had not yet been written.
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Eden
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Catholics know that the Bible is the Word of God. Why are you responding as though we do not?
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Nicene
Guest
I dare. And apparently know what’s in it better than you.
Mt 13:11: And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12: For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
13: This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14: With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: `You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive.
Jesus Christ is Lord, not scripture. Is he the God of the living or the God of paper? Do you suffer the children not to come unto him, shut out the kingdom of heaven from the blind, from the dyslexics, from the mentally incapacitated? Scripture is profitable but Jesus Christ is Lord:
**16: All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
39: You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
**
The very book you hold in your hand came from the catholic church, no matter how much you try to deny it. It is Gods holy word entrusted to us, but Christ is the Word. Those who know him know this
You are not saved through scripture but through the blood of the cross which has been poured out for all that some may be saved:
Rom 6:3: Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
4: We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
Pentecostals charge for preaching on top of offerings?
**Acts 8:18: Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money,
19: saying, “Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” **
The church does not charge for preaching but follow Christ and the widow with two mites. Christ was againt it asking only to give what we could:
**1 Cor 9:18: What then is my reward? Just this: that in my preaching I may make the gospel free of charge, not making full use of my right in the gospel.
Mt 10:10: no bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor a staff; for the laborer deserves his food.
Lk 10:7: And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages; do not go from house to house.
1 Tim 5:17: Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;
18: for the scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.”
1 Cor 11:14: In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.**
Only the pharisees forced a charge on the populace.
Follow you or follow the apostles?
**1 Cor 14:23: If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
1 Cor 13:1: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1 Cor 14:40: but all things should be done decently and in order.
**
Cont…
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Eden
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Nicene
Guest
You have just shown the catholic mass (apparently you never payed attention in mass and never actually worshiped)
In heaven:
Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!
On earth:
**Holy Holy Holy Lord God of power and might, heaven and earth are full of your glory, hosanna in the hightest (Rev 4:9 Mk 11:10)
Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming! Hosanna in the highest! (Mk 11:9-10)
Lord I am not worthy that you should come under my roof, but only say the word and I shall be healed (Lk 7:6,7)**
The entire mass comes directly from scripture and reflects the worship in heaven. Were you lukewarm and fell asleep instead of worshiping that you did not know this?
Why cannot pentecostals control themselves and be silent? Why do they disobey Pauls admonishments?
**1 Cor 14:30 But if a revelation is given to another person sitting there, the first one should be silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged.
32 Indeed, the spirits of prophets are under the prophets’ control,
1 Cor 14:23: If, therefore, the whole church assembles and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
1 Cor 13:1: If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1 Cor 14:40: but all things should be done decently and in order.
1 Pet 4:7: The end of all things is at hand; therefore keep sane and sober for your prayers.
1 Thess 5:8: But, since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.
**
Our Lord knows true worship, He tells us (You can see the pentecostal worship reflected in our Lords words)
**Mt 7:22: On that day many will say to me,
Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23: And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’Rev 3:1: "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:
The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. "I know your works; you have the name of being alive, and you are dead.2: Awake, and strengthen what remains and is on the point of death, for I have not found your works perfect in the sight of my God.
3: Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you.**
You dare me?!!!
You dare me, not to be sober in prayer, to not do things decently and in order but to interrupt the worship of God and be a noisy gong and clanging cymbol? Only those who honor God with their lips and not their heart would do contrary and not put on a breastplate of faith and love. And those who tempt? There is only one in the gospel who tempts:
Mt 4:6: and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written,
He will give his angels charge of you,' and On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’”7: Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, `You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’"
What was Our Lords response when Satan influenced Peter and tempted Christ?
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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LilyM
Guest
When God wanted to prove to Elisha and the prophets of Baal that they were wrong did he send fire and brimstone down from heaven to smite their altar or did he just let them keep chanting and singing and making idiots of themselves for a while and do nothing?
Sometimes God does indeed work through the most natural and obvious means rather than the extraordinary. Especially, as I said in my last post, with that line ‘Mary pondered these things in her heart’ it really does seem that Luke went to the horse’s mouth so to speak and got Mary’s own opinion and story.
Do you think that she would live side by side with the Apostles and work among them and never talk about (or be asked about) what had happened to her? Her part of the story is extremely important, after all she was the virgin prophesied by Isaiah to give birth as a sign. Why WOULDN’T she talk and why wouldn’t they ask her and write down what she told them?
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Church_Militant
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How can you find something difficult to accept that is self evident? When the Gospels quote Mary ver batim decades after the event?! Case in point; the things that the prophet said to Mary at the presentation of Jesus in the temple. Joseph would’ve been the only other person there and by the time the Gospels were being written he was already deceased, so, since the Blessed Virgin was the FIRST believer, why would the apostles, who knew all this and that she was right there with them after the resurrection not tap her as a source for their Gospels? This ties in very very well with what St. John says in John 21: 24-25.
I just cited a whole post of scripture that shows that the Gospels reveal aspects of the life of the holy family that only Mary was in a position to have known. That should be proof enough since it’s from the Word of God.
Can you “prove” from another source a more viable idea?
Don’t attempt to poison the well like that!
- There is NO worship of the Blessed Virgin in Catholic teaching and this is anything but.
- There is NO effort "to undermine the power of the Holy Spirt " in anything that I have said. On the contrary you attempt to spiritualize something that is not only unnecessary, but actually exceeds the simple statements of the Word of God, and frankly that is one of the things that I personally have seen that seems to most often lead to the gravest errors of n-C religions.
This is circular thinking…You attempt to assert that the Bible is correct (something Catholicism agrees with) and yet sit there and deny that the plain evidence of of what the Word of God reveals to anyone who has God-given walking around sense.
Man’s ability to think and reason is a gift from God. And in the case of the believer is assisted by the Holy Spirit as per the New Testament. So…prove me wrong.
At best you can only say that you disagree and at worst you can only appear not to believe the simple evidence of the Word of God.
Pax tecum,
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Church_Militant
Guest
Is that supported by the evidence of the scripture that we have?
Just because Jesus opened their minds to the scriptures, let’s look at the context of that event in Luke 24…
“41 But while they yet believed not, and wondered for joy, he said: Have you any thing to eat? 42 And they offered him a piece of a broiled fish, and a honeycomb. 43 And when he had eaten before them, taking the remains, he gave to them. 44 And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.”
Again…this explains itself, and in no way applies to the things that I am pointing out. Mary was still the source for those parts of the Gospel.
Pax tecum,
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a_clare
Guest
There is a time and a place for shouting for joy and dancing. Catholics are silent in Mass out of reverence for the Eucharist and for what is taking place, and also out of respect for others who are trying to pray uninterupted by the shouting of others. There are, in fact, times in the Mass when it is acceptable to sing a hymn of praise to the Lord, and many points where we say “Amen” and mean it wholeheartedly. One can sincerely say something without having to yell. There are other times, outside of Mass, when it is even appropriate to “shout for joy.” I often join with Catholic friends outside of church to sing praise and worship to God because we feel like praising Him in song. The Mass, however, is not the place for disruptive shouting.
In Him,
Angela
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St.Eric
Guest
This is absolutely false…according to the New Testament scripture. Now, you very well could be referring to an extra biblical account…but that would not go with your sola scriptura stance. No where in the NT does it support your assertion. If Christ did explain all scripture concerning himself, it would have to be Old Testament scripture as the New had not yet been written. So, again, show us where Christ did this.
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valient_Lucy
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He’s right. There’s no biblical evidence that Christ told his desciples what he wanted them to write down in the Gospels. If anything, He seemed far more concerned with them starting the Church than writing anything down. Check out the end of Mattew’s Gospel.
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YahShuaMessiah
Guest
Church Militant:
Church Militant:
You say, “that only Mary was in a position to have known”. My point being that God knew and inspired the men who wrote the Gospels. God knew, God made the writers write.
Church Militant:
Why are points asked considered to “poison the well”? From what I have observed, the first thing Catholic Apologists do is ask for “proof”,recite source and so forth. So I ask, is there any proof that the writers of the two Gospels you refer to went to Mary for information to put in their writings? You say the proof is in that the info only Mary knew. I believe that statement to undermined Almighty God, as he knew. Isn’t he powerful enough when the writers where filled with the Holy Spirit to fill them with what he wanted them to write. Al l I ask is for proof. You seem to think from a worldly perspective, I see if from an eternal perspective. You see the information limited to manly possibilities; I see it as no limitation to Gods abilities.
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St.Eric
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Psalm 46:10
“Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.”
Matt 6:1-6
1 "(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. 2
When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites 2 do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.
3
But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing,
4
so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
5
"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6
But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.
No Kujo, When I am at Mass I think I will obey the Lord and be STILL and KNOW that he is GOD. The spectacle of the heathen is fruitless indeed.
Our Lord is all about humility. He would be the last person to draw attenion to himself. IF he were sitting in your temple, no one would ever know it. He most definetly would not shout out amen or jump around and speak in tonuges. He would come and go like the wind and you would not even know it. Think about it brother.
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Nicene
Guest
I just thought it only fair to point out that if you are going to copy from wikipedia you may want to copy the entire thing:
*The Greek word episkopos means “overseer” and, in early Christian tradition, it came to be used for any clergyman who was in charge of the religious community of a city or other large district.
The later technical term Episcopal has come to refer to the idea that church and religious authority resides in the collective responsibility of bishops rather than in the community as a whole or in a single figure like a pope.
*
However sinse you claim that we are all ‘overseers’ you’ll have difficulty explaing in the same letter of Peters, which you mention, where he addresses the elders specifically.
As well you’ll have to explain how God allowed the traditions of men such as building the church with Elders (Bishops) offices, presbyters (Priest in English) and deacons. Did you remove thosse from the bible?
Concurrantly, you’ll need to explain away Acts 1:20-26 where Matthi’as is elected to Judas office and how such a greivous error made it into the bible.
As well you’ll need to explain why in James for example you are to call in the clergy to anoint the sick and dying if it meant you.
Notably Paul to Timothy tells him about the qualifications of the “overseers” I guess that means you are not a Christian because under your interpretation, of priesthood of all believers, you do not fit the bill. Unfortunately it also means women cannot be christians because they cannot, according to Paul, be overseers.
Are you a oneness pentecostal? It’s a yes or no answer is sufficient.
Do you follow the teachings of T.D. Jakes? Again yes or no answer is sufficient.
Your answers to the above should be enlightening.
Peace and God Bless
nicene
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Church_Militant
Guest
You “poison the well” by implying that one worships Mary and that one denies the power of the Holy Spirit to inspire the apostles, which is not the case here at all. That is nothing more than your misinterprtation.
My problem with your remarks is actually that you refuse a simple common sense assessment of something that neither of us has verifiable proof of either way and then go on to assert that I “think from a worldly perspective” while you assert that you think “from an eternal perspective” that is nothing more than you (perhaps) believing the best of yourself, yet you cannot prove this assertion one way or the other either.
I offer nothing more than a simple common sense assessment of the situation based on what the Word of God actually says. Did you actually read the passages that I cited?
Certainly it it possible that things occurred the way you choose to believe they did, but there is nothing in the New Testament that supports your belief concerning this, whereas my position at least has the simple sense of the passages of the Word of God. Something that most n-Cs repeatedly tell us is to be taken literally in most cases and is the sole authority for all that Christians are supposed to believe. So YahShuaMessiah, which is it? I suspect that everyone else monitoring this thread is curious as to how you will resolve this confusing assertion of your beliefs. I know I am…
Pax tecum,
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YahShuaMessiah
Guest
Church Militant:
As I was searching for that one, I also found this one, “And that from a child you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”
Has nothing to do with what we are talking about, but very powerful testimony I must say.
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God,” 2 Tim. 3:16
As I was searching for that one, I also found this one, “And that from a child you have known the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”
Has nothing to do with what we are talking about, but very powerful testimony I must say.
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Nicene
Guest
Usually helps to suply the whole quote:
**16: All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,17: that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. **
And your other quote from Timothy. However they Timothy did not have an NT, his mother was a Jew, his father a gentile. The OT made him wise, yet he still needed the apostles to tell him about the good news. Paul is absolutely correct, the OT (and safe to say the NT, yet for timothy it is the OT) is profitable for reproof, correct and training.
However none of this proves your assertion that God planted information inside the writers heads. In fact the writers themselves never give any kind of indication that this happened at all.
What does it mean that scripture is “inspired”?
Is it God taking over the person and dictating? (Loss of free will)
Or is it God moving the person to write the story within the context of their experience?
If it is God dictating and planting then something is wrong because it makes the persons mindless automotons, stripping them of free will. And if God is always the same (psalms) then He wouldn’t do that, it’s never occurred before.
Secondly He wouldn’t need to do as He did with the writers, He would have just etched it Himself as He did with Moses and the ten commandments. The NT is a testimony and why it is called a testament.
Has God ever planted information about the past previously? Nope.
Has He given glimpses of the future? Yep.
When inspired in scripture do men have an overwheling urge to do or say something that God wanted communicated? Yep.
Did he ever take their free will? Nope.
Has God ever in scripture gone outside of the writers experiental understanding? Nope.
You have been describing a unique occurance that has never happened in scripture. On what basis do you make your assertion? Is it biblical? Or a personal invention?
Under Sola Scriptura is personal invention acceptable outside of scripture? Or is this Scripture plus tradition? If tradition can you show us where this tradition originated?
Again your Timothy quote above does not address your assertion, in fact it isn’t related to it at all. We all know scripture is inspired, that’s nothing new.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
**16: All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,17: that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. **
And your other quote from Timothy. However they Timothy did not have an NT, his mother was a Jew, his father a gentile. The OT made him wise, yet he still needed the apostles to tell him about the good news. Paul is absolutely correct, the OT (and safe to say the NT, yet for timothy it is the OT) is profitable for reproof, correct and training.
However none of this proves your assertion that God planted information inside the writers heads. In fact the writers themselves never give any kind of indication that this happened at all.
What does it mean that scripture is “inspired”?
Is it God taking over the person and dictating? (Loss of free will)
Or is it God moving the person to write the story within the context of their experience?
If it is God dictating and planting then something is wrong because it makes the persons mindless automotons, stripping them of free will. And if God is always the same (psalms) then He wouldn’t do that, it’s never occurred before.
Secondly He wouldn’t need to do as He did with the writers, He would have just etched it Himself as He did with Moses and the ten commandments. The NT is a testimony and why it is called a testament.
Has God ever planted information about the past previously? Nope.
Has He given glimpses of the future? Yep.
When inspired in scripture do men have an overwheling urge to do or say something that God wanted communicated? Yep.
Did he ever take their free will? Nope.
Has God ever in scripture gone outside of the writers experiental understanding? Nope.
You have been describing a unique occurance that has never happened in scripture. On what basis do you make your assertion? Is it biblical? Or a personal invention?
Under Sola Scriptura is personal invention acceptable outside of scripture? Or is this Scripture plus tradition? If tradition can you show us where this tradition originated?
Again your Timothy quote above does not address your assertion, in fact it isn’t related to it at all. We all know scripture is inspired, that’s nothing new.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Nicene
Guest
To add some further fuel to the fire so to speak (t)radition holds Luke as painting the first pictures of Mary, as well as being her physician.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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Magicsilence
Guest
Kujo, its simple really. If you profess the Truth you should have an answer to my question.
Why can you not answer it?
Do you just condemn Catholics who venerate Mary? Others are ok?
In Christ.
Andre.
Magicsilence:
Why can you not answer it?
Do you just condemn Catholics who venerate Mary? Others are ok?
In Christ.
Andre.
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