Kujo313's Assertions About Catholic Marian Beliefs (Isis!?...Goddess!?)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Church_Militant
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
Zooey:
King James version…Dropped from Heaven into :cool: Philip’s waiting hands…
Oh! Wait a minute!! :hmmm: There was :eek: no KJV until 1611!! Maybe they had a :rolleyes: time machine??:rotfl:
The eunuch was reading Scripture. Philip was a first-hand witness.
 
but when Mary asked

strengthens the Mary reference.

If Christ did not honor her ,

He loved her
He still obeyed her. she is His greatest servant.

but when Mary asked

strengthens the Mary reference.

If Christ did not honor her ,

He loved her
He still obeyed her. she is His greatest servant.

See a pattern? I bet Jesus sure does. Your focus is way off.

Why bother her when her focus was Jesus? She didn’t want all of this attention, she didn’t ask or demand it. Jesus didn’t give it to her, either. It’s SUPPOSED to be all God’s, nobody else’s.

Jesus wants EVERYBODY to get the same treatment: from the first century to the last. Everybody.

Instead of putting some focus on one, put ALL of your focus on The One.

Do you need Mary to tell you that?

(no)
:dancing: :clapping: :bounce: :bowdown: :whistle:
“It’s all about you! It’s all about you! It’s all about you! Jesus!!”
 
40.png
kujo313:
Besides Jesus, how do you know that anybody in Heaven is praying? Angels ARE messengers. Look up Jacob’s Ladder.

The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Once you die, you see Him. Either as Savior or as Judge.
I guess you haven’t read the book of Revelations.
 
kujo313 said:
“It’s all about you! It’s all about you! It’s all about you! Jesus!!”

:dancing: :clapping: :bounce: :bowdown: :whistle:
“It’s all about you! It’s all about you! It’s all about you! kujo!!”

you’re so determined to be right that you are ignoring substantial chunks of the NT, including the reference in revelations to those in heaven offering the prayers of those on earth to God, as well as at least half of all the points the good people on here are making …

‘Jesus wants everybody to get the same treatment’ my foot - he didn’t treat all people the same, he singled out Peter among the apostles and James and John after that … so did the other apostles … not everyone got the keys to the kingdom, not everyone was commanded to ‘feed my sheep, feed my lambs’, not everyone was given the power to bind and loose … what part of this pattern are you not getting, not all are equal, not on earth and not all in heaven.

All are equally saved, sure, that’s different to being all treated exactly alike. I love all my family and all its members, I don’t treat them all precisely the same.
 
The Church does not teach that upon death we dissolve into a nothingness where all community and human contact end and we are utterly alone with God who loves us all equally and without individuation. That’s more like Buddhism. That’s pretty scary, actually.
 
40.png
kujo313:
The eunuch was reading Scripture. Philip was a first-hand witness.
  1. The eunuch was reading the Jewish scriptures…the OLd Testament. The New Testament was not yet in existence. It was collected & arranged by the church.
    There seems to be a common :whacky: notion that “scripture” in the NT, means the King James, 1611, version of the] Bible somehow magically just appeared, without any work on the part of the early Christian church, miraculously whole in every detail. Not true!!
  2. Mary was not just a first hand witness, she actually gave birth to Jesus after carrying Him in her womb for 9 months. She nursed him, & changed his dirty diapers, for pete’s sake!! How much more first hand can you get???

“Remember, o most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intersession, was left unaided.
Inspired with this confidence, I fly to you, o Virgin of virgins, my mother. To you I come, before you, I stand, sinful & sorrowful. O Mother of the Word incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in your mercy, hear & answer them.
Amen.”
 
40.png
kujo313:
Besides Jesus, how do you know that anybody in Heaven is praying? Angels ARE messengers. Look up Jacob’s Ladder.
You couldn’t be more wrong, here is only one example in Revelation, among many.

**8: And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; 9: and they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10: and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.” 11: Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12: saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” 13: And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!” 14: And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
**

I also highlighted the first section. Notice the bowls of incense being offered which are the prayers of the saints. Those aren’t the saints in heaven, they are right there in heaven praying to God. Unless of course you are saying that those in heaven can’t approach God and others have to do it for them (creatures and Elders) So what saints are they the prayers of?

Also notice who this is in heaven offering up those prayers of the saints on earth. It isn’t just the lamb, but the elders and creatures.
The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Once you die, you see Him. Either as Savior or as Judge.
No, everyone is judged, good and bad alike. No one escapes judgement, not one.

He is already your savior. You either live in him now or reject his teachings. You don’t get to choose him as your savior after you die.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
40.png
kujo313:
Besides Jesus, how do you know that anybody in Heaven is praying? Angels ARE messengers. Look up Jacob’s Ladder.

The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Once you die, you see Him. Either as Savior or as Judge.
Well, look at it this way. A good Christian will more than likly pray for you if you ask them.
All those in Heaven (including Mary) are Good Christians.
So therefor all those in Heaven will be more than happy to pray for you if you ask.

It’s not belittling Jesus. Heck if one who asking for the prayer is thinking of Jesus (which if he is asking for help from Jesusn [that’s what prayer is]) and one gets someone else to think of Jesus (through prayer) then you just got an extra person thinking of And more importantly talking to Jesus. And that’s not a bad thing, That’s…a Good thing. And heck people in heaven like thinking of and talking to Jesus, so What’s the problem with asking other people (especally those in heaven) to pray for you?

It’s kind of like one is advocating apathy when saying that:
Person 1: will you pray for my marriage. It’s on rocky ground right now.
Person 2: No.

Not to be mean or anything but, that is what was being said by our dear seperated brother Kujo.
 
40.png
kujo313:
Matt 22:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God."
Oh, you know the Scriptures. You don’t like it.
My brother, you are mistaken. Please do not take offense when I correct. When Jesus said this he was reffering to the old testament. And the time Paul had not been converted, so all the pauline letters would have to had been thrown out. Paul had not written revelation so one would have had to have thrown that away. Indeed, Matthew hadn’t written the gospel of Matthew when Jesus had said this. Jesus I doubt would have excluded the New Testament.
Matt 26:56
But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.”
No “traditions” mentioned here. Maybe their “traditions” WAS following the Scriptures!
But that does not exclude Sacred Tradition. Jesus and the Apostles use Sacred Tradition numerious times if I am show you brother. Matt. 2:23 - the prophecy “He shall be a Nazarene” is oral tradition. It is not found in the Old Testament. This demonstrates that the apostles relied upon oral tradition and taught by oral tradition.

Matt 23:2 - Jesus relies on the oral tradition of acknowledging Moses’ seat of authority (which passed from Moses to Joshua to the Sanhedrin). This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

John 19:26; 20:2; 21:20,24 - knowing that the “beloved disciple” is John is inferred from Scripture, but is also largely oral tradition.

Acts 20:35 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles for this statement (“it is better to give than to receive”) of Jesus. It is not recorded in the Gospels.

1 Cor. 7:10 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the apostles to give the charge of Jesus that a wife should not separate from her husband.

1 Cor. 10:4 - Paul relies on the oral tradition of the rock following Moses. It is not recorded in the Old Testament. See Exodus 17:1-17 and Num. 20:2-13.

Eph 5:14 - Paul relies on oral tradition to quote an early Christian hymn - “awake O sleeper rise from the dead and Christ shall give you light.”

Heb. 11:37 - the author of Hebrews relies on the oral tradition of the martyrs being sawed in two. This is not recorded in the Old Testament.

Jude 9 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of the Archangel Michael’s dispute with satan over Moses’ body. This is not found in the Old Testament.

Jude 14-15 - Jude relies on the oral tradition of Enoch’s prophecy which is not recorded in the Old Testament.
Mark 12:10
Have you not even read this Scripture: ‘ The stone which the builders rejectedHas become the chief cornerstone.
Luke 24:27
Scripture says Jesus IS the cornerstone, not Peter. No wonder you want tradition.
But, doesn’t Jesus say in SACRED SCRIPTURE “you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church;and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Jesus saying you. You will be the rock wich I will build my Church. It is his church as Jesus said MY church. But, he said he will built HIS church on the Rock of Peter. To deny that would be to use a Tradition of man.
And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
Note he did not use “traditions”
John 5:39-40
You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Your “rock” is Peter, not Jesus. If Scriptures reveal Jesus, tell me, name the tradition and why you need it.
See my words directly above on Peter and Jesus. But let me expound on your scripture as it reveals to Sola Scriptora. Again that would be Old Testament only. Yes Scripture does testify to Jesus but, so does Sacred Tradition.
 
Acts 8:35
Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him (the eunuch).
“Sola Scriptula” strikes again!
But, Acts hadn’t been writen yet. That would deny the majority if not all of the New Testament. Nor does Philip say what was and what wasn’t in scripture, nor that one couldn’t use Sacred Tradition. And scince the new testament hadn’t been written yet, any refrence to Jesus life would have been non-scriptural.
Acts 17:2
Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures
(not “traditions”)
Acts 17:11
These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so
😃
But the scripture they look for was the Old Testament which Jesus not in. Anything of The Gospel of Jesus would have been Sacred Tradition (seeing how they had not the new testament yet they would have had to rely soly on Sacred Tradition which was handed down.
2 Tim 3: 16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
“All”, taken from the Greek word meaning “All”. And it’s profitable, too! In what? “Righteousness”
Yes dear brother, scripture is profitable and good, that is why we use it. But, it does not say that it is the only thing to use. It does not say that Scripture is the sole, nore suffictent by itself. Which would lead one to think that one would need Sacred Tradition.
1 Peter 2:6
Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, “ Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame
Peter confesses that Jesus IS the cornerstone.
Yes, Jesus is the Conerstone but that doesn’t negate what Jesus said about Peter in Matthew 16 that he was the Rock he would build his church on.
1 Thes 5:21
Test all things; hold fast what is good.
Test against what? Tradition??
But if you Test Scripture you will find that you should use Sacred Tradition.Matt. 15:3 - Jesus condemns human traditions that void God’s word. Some Protestants use this verse to condemn all tradition. But this verse has nothing to do with the tradition we must obey that was handed down to us from the apostles. (Here, the Pharisees, in their human tradition, gave goods to the temple to avoid taking care of their parents, and this voids God’s law of honoring one’s father and mother.)

Mark 7:9 - this is the same as Matt. 15:3 - there is a distinction between human tradition (that we should reject) and apostolic tradition (that we must accept).

Gal. 1:14; Col. 2:22 – Paul also writes about “the traditions of my fathers” and “human precepts and doctrines” which regarded the laws of Judaism. These traditions are no longer necessary.

Acts 2:42 - the members obeyed apostolic tradition (doctrine, prayers, and the breaking of bread). Their obedience was not to the Scriptures alone. Tradition (in Greek, “paradosis”) means “to hand on” teaching.

Acts 20:7 - this verse gives us a glimpse of Christian worship on Sunday, but changing the Lord’s day from Saturday to Sunday is understood primarily from oral apostolic tradition.

John 17:20 - Jesus prays for all who believe in Him through the oral word of the apostles. Jesus protects oral apostolic teaching.

1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful for maintaining the apostolic tradition that they have received. The oral word is preserved and protected by the Spirit.
 
Eph. 4:20 – Paul refers the Ephesians to the oral tradition they previously received when he writes, “You did not so learn Christ!”

Phil. 4:9 - Paul says that what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do. This refers to learning from his preaching and example, which is apostolic tradition.

Col. 1:5-6 – of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, which has come to you. This delivery of the faith refers to the oral tradition the Colossians had previously received from the ordained leaders of the Church. This oral tradition is called the gospel of truth.

1 Thess.1:5 – our gospel came to you not only in word, but in the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul is referring to the oral tradition which the Thessalonians had previously received. There is never any instruction to abandon these previous teachings; to the contrary, they are to be followed as the word of God.

1 Thess. 4:2 – Paul again refers the Thessalonians to the instructions they already had received, which is the oral apostolic tradition.

2 Thess. 2:5 – Paul yet again refers the Thessalonians to the previous teachings they received from Paul when he taught them orally. These oral teachings are no less significant than the written teachings.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul clearly commands us in this verse to obey oral apostolic tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. This verse proves that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other. Protestants must find a verse that voids this commandment to obey oral tradition elsewhere in the Bible, or they are not abiding by the teachings of Scripture.

2 Thess. 2:15 - in fact, it was this apostolic tradition that allowed the Church to select the Bible canon (apostolicity was determined from tradition). Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the Church had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors. Hence, the Bible is an apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church. This also proves that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition include the teachings on the Blessed Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), the assumption of Mary, and knowing that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.

2 Thess. 3:6 - Paul again commands the faithful to live in accord with the tradition that they received from the apostles.

2 Thess. 3:7 - Paul tells them they already know how to imitate the elders. He is referring them to the tradition they have learned by his oral preaching and example.

1 Tim. 6:20 - guard what has been “entrusted” to you. The word “entrusted” is “paratheke” which means a “deposit.” Oral tradition is part of what the Church has always called the Deposit of Faith.

2 Tim. 2:2 - Paul says what you have heard from me entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. This is “tradition,” or the handing on of apostolic teaching.

2 Tim. 3:14 - continue in what you have learned and believed knowing from whom you learned it (by oral tradition).

1 John 2:7 – John refers to the oral word his disciples have heard which is the old commandment that we love one another.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Test? How? Verse 2
By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
My dear child, That is what the Catholic Church does, Confesses that Christ Jesus came in the Flesh and is of God. And would that mean that The catholic Church is Good, and you should follow here teaching.
Read on. Oops! John does not mention Mary! Must be under T for “tradition”. 😛
Yes there is a lot of Mary and Jesus in Sacred Tradition.
Brother, Sacred Scripture holds that we should follow Sacred Tradition as well as I have showed above. Please do not be hostile todwards it.

In Sacred Scripture we see that all that Paul and Peter and the aposltes did, did not point to them but to Jesus. There were no Paulans that followed Paul as God. But, rather all that Paul was pointed to Jesus. It showed Jesus and all his glory. The same is with Mary. We, as Catholics, see all that Mary is and say, “Wow, look at the wonderous thing God has done.” Mary points to Jesus.
 
40.png
LilyM:
pirate was actually questioning sacramental confession to a priest, not the Hail Mary per se. Pirate, there are plenty of other threads here where the need for sacramental confession is discussed (not to mention info in the library on this website). Keep this thread on topic please.
Isn’t this thread about Mary? And isn’t Hail Mary about Mary?
 
40.png
jimmy:
How can you study the bible when you are 3? How old were you when you learned to read? You honestly had the attention span when you were 3 to sit down and study the bible?
My mother taught me well when I was young until I learned how to read. Are you saying that blind people can’t study the Bible?
 
LilyM said:
:dancing: :clapping: :bounce: :bowdown: :whistle:
“It’s all about you! It’s all about you! It’s all about you! kujo!!”

you’re so determined to be right that you are ignoring substantial chunks of the NT, including the reference in revelations to those in heaven offering the prayers of those on earth to God, as well as at least half of all the points the good people on here are making …

‘Jesus wants everybody to get the same treatment’ my foot - he didn’t treat all people the same, he singled out Peter among the apostles and James and John after that … so did the other apostles … not everyone got the keys to the kingdom, not everyone was commanded to ‘feed my sheep, feed my lambs’, not everyone was given the power to bind and loose … what part of this pattern are you not getting, not all are equal, not on earth and not all in heaven.

All are equally saved, sure, that’s different to being all treated exactly alike. I love all my family and all its members, I don’t treat them all precisely the same.

LilyM, that was cute repeating what Kujo said with his name on it(sarcasm)…let me have my turn…you’re so determined to be right that YOU are ignoring substantial chunks of the whole Bible! If you want to know which chunks, read my previous posts…
 
Yes, the thread is about Marian beliefs. Is the “Hail Mary” about Mary? Sure it is. . .about Mary, Mother of Jesus Christ.

Every word of the “Hail Mary” comes directly from Scripture or is to be understood by Scripture. (The actual word, indeed the concept of “Trinity” as three Divine Persons in ONE God, is NOT in the Bible, is it? But it is implied, foreshadowed, and in early Church oral tradition was EXPOUNDED by the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus promised “the Paraclete will guide you to all truth”).

That Mary is “holy” is referrable back to her being “full of grace”. Can anything full of grace NOT be holy?

That Mary is “Mother of God”, Theotokos, is also referrable in both Old Testament foreshadowing (Isaiah) as well as New Testament, wherein she is spoken of as the Mother of the Lord (Elizabeth in Luke 2) just for starters.

“Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”. . .Paul exhorts us to pray for others. Jesus tells us to pray unceasingly. James assures us the prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Maccabbees tells us it is a holy and wholesome thing to pray for the dead. . .in order to fit them for eternal life.

The early Christians not only prayed for their living fellow Christians but also prayed for those who were martyred for the faith, that the martyrs now in eternal life pray for those left on earth.

For 1500 years Christians knew, whether orally or in writing, of the Scriptures found in the first half of the “Hail Mary”. For 1500 years Christians knew, from their bishops/presbyters/elders/priests/deacons/fellow Christians of the teachings of the Holy Spirit regarding the sinlessness and grace of Mary, her motherhood of Jesus, that those who died in Christ live eternally, and that prayer directed to God THROUGH the saints is part of the two great commandments given us by Jesus–Loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength–and loving our neighbor as ourselves. If we aren’t praying to God FOR one another, WITH one another, then we really aren’t fully praying–we are selfishly attempting to keep it just “me and God”, totally ignoring “our neighbor”.

But 500 years ago some people (for whatever reasons, man-made reasons) decided to be “rugged individualists” and to pick and choose what they thought God meant.

I’ll stand with Joshua and his household, “As for me and mine, we shall serve the LORD”. Somehow I just can’t see God letting the people He loved enough to send His only Son to redeem teaching “wrongs” for over 1500 years before sending hundreds of different people making thousands of different “corrections” and causing wholesale slaughter and destruction among Christians, especially when no two of the “reformers” seem to agree totally on what they want to “reform”. . . 😦
 
40.png
Nicene:
He is already your savior. You either live in him now or reject his teachings. You don’t get to choose him as your savior after you die.
I don’t quite understand the whole purgatory thing, so just help me understand it. But what I understand is that Catholics try to pray people out of purgatory. But it seems that if you choose Christ before you die, you go to heaven, because your sins are forgiven. But if you don’t accept Christ, you go to hell. So where does purgatory fall in?
(i’m not trying to be smart, i’m honestly asking)
 
Hi pirate.

Well, we know that nothing impure can enter heaven, right?

Another poster gave this analogy and I like it.

Suppose that your soul is a plank. Each sin is like hammering a nail into the plank. Now, having your sin forgiven is like taking out those nails. BUT. . .a hole is left each time.

Now, here you are with all your sins forgiven, but your “plank” is full of holes. It isn’t a perfect plank. It isn’t going to be “thrown into the fire”. . .but neither is it worthy of being displayed as being a “perfect plank”.

Going to purgatory is like taking that “holey” plank and having it planed and restored back to its original perfection. Going THROUGH that planing is no picnic. . .saws, varnishing, etc.

For a human soul, we know from the Bible that we will be saved “as though through fire”. We know that the “refiners’ fire” is an indication of purity, cf. “silver seven times refined.”

Now, an unrepentant soul goes to hell, not because Jesus did not save him, but because that soul refuses to ACCEPT the salvation.

A repentant soul which has purified himself or herself on earth goes right to heaven.

But a repentant soul which is not sufficiently purified–a soul which has been saved by Christ yet which still has “holes in the plank”, a soul which acknowledges Christ as Savior, someone like the guest at a wedding who does not yet have the proper garment and needs to “change into” suitable attire. . .goes to purgatory. Not hell, because he has accepted salvation. Not heaven, because while the soul is SAVED it is not yet fully PURE.

When fully pure, that soul goes to heaven. NEVER to hell.

Purgatory is that place where we make our final “cleansing” for Christ.
 
40.png
pirate87:
My mother taught me well when I was young until I learned how to read. Are you saying that blind people can’t study the Bible?
A blind man can atleast listen to audio cds. Without these though it would be very tough for a blind man to study scripture.
 
40.png
kujo313:
The eunuch was reading Scripture. Philip was a first-hand witness.
Yep. The old testament. I am almost sure he was reading the book of Macabees! 👍 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top