Latin Mass Society asks bishops to embrace traditionalists as ‘spiritual children’

[Sarcelle]

But flash mobs and polka Masses to get crowds to come to church once or twice are healthy?

I have been attending Novus Ordo masses but I have never seen any flash mobs, clown masses or polka masses. Equating the NO mass to polka mass just angers me.

 

[ProVobis]

Have even all the Popes screwed up the Vatican II reform?

I don’t think so but then-Cardinal Ratzinger did mention something about the liturgy being “banal” and “fabricated.” What do you think he meant by that?

 

[ProVobis]

I have been attending Novus Ordo masses but I have never seen any flash mobs…

Okay, but know I didn’t make this up.

detroitmassmob.com/#!about_us/csgz

npr.org/2014/10/09/352816659/mass-mobs-aim-to-keep-pews-full-at-old-churches

time.com/money/3485014/flash-mob-mass-mob-church/

huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/13/detroit-mass-mob_n_5967678.html

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Okay, but know I didn’t make this up.

detroitmassmob.com/#!about_us/csgz

npr.org/2014/10/09/352816659/mass-mobs-aim-to-keep-pews-full-at-old-churches

time.com/money/3485014/flash-mob-mass-mob-church/

huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/13/detroit-mass-mob_n_5967678.html

And this is evil because ?

This is what the purpose stated in the fist link you provided.

Our intention is to show solidarity of our Catholic faith through respect for our old historic churches in the Archdiocese - and maybe across Michigan.

In other words, it’s not the equivalent of a flash mob where the mob makes a scene, good or bad.

Jim

 

[Sirach2]

And this is evil because ?

This is what the purpose stated in the fist link you provided.

In other words, it’s not the equivalent of a flash mob where the mob makes a scene, good or bad.

Nor is it even close to being a “polka mass” or a “clown mass.” I think ProVobis went on a wild tangent to make a lame point. As was the sorry comment about the mass being banal. If this was so, then why did not Card. Ratzinger use his authority with a Motu Proprio to change it? Obviously he did not deem it to be necessary, nor did any successor popes, one of whom I believe is a Saint!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Nor is it even close to being a “polka mass” or a “clown mass.” I think ProVobis went on a wild tangent to make a lame point.

The only so-called “clown Mass,” I’ve seen, is a photo that was hijacked from a priest who serves Masses for members of a circus, when the circus comes to his town.

He put a clown nose on at the end of the Mass, to show solidarity with the circus clowns who attend the Mass.

Some one used the photo of the priest wearing the clown nose and posted in the internet as if this was common place during Mass at parishes.

Jim

 

[Sirach2]

The only so-called “clown Mass,” I’ve seen, is a photo that was hijacked from a priest who serves Masses for members of a circus, when the circus comes to his town.

He put a clown nose on at the end of the Mass, to show solidarity with the circus clowns who attend the Mass.

Some one used the photo of the priest wearing the clown nose and posted in the internet as if this was common place during Mass at parishes.

Jim

It sickens me greatly that folks have no valid point to make that they have to resort to buffoonery. As if their words make it all true, somehow.

 

[gracepoole]

And this is where their error would be. They believe that the EF is superior to the OF, which is not the case.

That’s an interesting summary of what I said but it’s a false one. I said they prefer the EF for a specific reason – I didn’t even hint that they prefer the EF because they believe it’s “superior.” The EF is less social, more focused on the sacrificial nature of the Mass, emphasizes communion received on the tongue, etc. Noting these differences doesn’t mean the EF is superior. They mean it’s different.

Going to and OF Mass at a monastery is going to have a level of reverence far greater than at the local parish. That doesn’t mean parishioners should abandon their parishes and attend Mass exclusively at the nearest monastery.

Who cares where people actually attend? Does it really matter if I choose one parish, my neighbor chooses another, and my neighbor’s children choose the monastery?

The parish I grew up in, which is another city, had a TLM. They at first had it at 8AM. However, it was attended primarily by people outside the parish, and because of the length of the Mass and the socializing that went on afterwards, it interfere with the two parish Masses which came after. So, they change the time for the TLM to be the last Mass of the day, 12 noon. That lasted until the priest who celebrated it was arrested for steeling from the parish coffers. He left the priesthood and there hasn’t been a TLM there since.

Talk about abuse.

Jim

Aha! Now I think we’re getting somewhere. Seems your distaste for EF adherents may be a bit more personal in nature.

(Note that I’ve only attended one EF Mass in my life and I regularly attend the OF. My diocese of over 350,000 Catholics only offers the EF at one parish at one time on Sundays.)

 

[Sirach2]

Nonsense. Apparently you’ve never been to Mass at the Vatican or read the documents of Vatican II. The Ordinary Form of the Mass as celebrated in many places does not even incorporate the reforms as intended by the fathers of VII. It is not universal in any way.

It seems rather clear that you stopped short in your liturgical studies and failed to note this very important reason for the changes that were voted upon and ratified AFTER the Council. It would be good if you spent some time in study before speaking incorrectly.

1. The Consilium , which Pope Paul VI established by the Motu Proprio Sacram Liturgiam, has promptly taken up its two appointed tasks: to carry out the directives of the Constitution and of Sacram Liturgiam and to provide the means for interpreting these documents and putting them into practice. - See more at: adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html#sthash.0uLysIph.dpuf

 

[pianistclare]

I guess you’re right.

I mean, one of the OF masses I attended in the Diocese of Scranton recently helped me to more deeply pray a few prayers about apologizing to Christ for sins. Which was beautiful.

It was that or bother to actually watch six girls in white robes and a priest dance around the the altar.

Aw… you were SO CLOSE.

 

[Neofight]

Okay, but know I didn’t make this up.

detroitmassmob.com/#!about_us/csgz

npr.org/2014/10/09/352816659/mass-mobs-aim-to-keep-pews-full-at-old-churches

time.com/money/3485014/flash-mob-mass-mob-church/

huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/13/detroit-mass-mob_n_5967678.html

Earlier you said these things were going on in Detroit…these aren’t Detroit…were you mistaken, or am I…or were you embellishing a tad?

 

[ServusHumilis]

Have even all the Popes screwed up the Vatican II reform?

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

 

[ProVobis]

Going to and OF Mass at a monastery is going to have a level of reverence far greater than at the local parish. That doesn’t mean parishioners should abandon their parishes and attend Mass exclusively at the nearest monastery.

For the record,

Can. 518 As a general rule a parish is to be territorial, that is, one which includes all the Christian faithful of a certain territory. When it is expedient, however, personal parishes are to be established determined by reason of the rite, language, or nationality of the Christian faithful of some territory, or even for some other reason.

 

[gracepoole]

Earlier you said these things were going on in Detroit…these aren’t Detroit…were you mistaken, or am I…or were you embellishing a tad?

:ehh:

All four links reference mass mobs in Detroit.

 

[Sirach2]

That’s an interesting summary of what I said but it’s a false one. I said they prefer the EF for a specific reason – I didn’t even hint that they prefer the EF because they believe it’s “superior.” The EF is less social, more focused on the sacrificial nature of the Mass, emphasizes communion received on the tongue, etc.

Aha! Now I think we’re getting somewhere. Seems your distaste for EF adherents may be a bit more personal in nature.

Not so, and you paint with unjustified speech. The “sacrificial nature” is equal in both forms, and you do a great disservice to the reader to imply otherwise. This is what disturbs many folks who hear comments like yours. It has nothing to do with being “personal in nature” but rather, based on a love for truth which is distorted by those making false claims such as this. You would do well to undertake an authentic study of the Mass.

 

[ServusHumilis]

It seems rather clear that you stopped short in your liturgical studies and failed to note this very important reason for the changes that were voted upon and ratified AFTER the Council. It would be good if you spent some time in study before speaking incorrectly.

1. The Consilium , which Pope Paul VI established by the Motu Proprio Sacram Liturgiam, has promptly taken up its two appointed tasks: to carry out the directives of the Constitution and of Sacram Liturgiam and to provide the means for interpreting these documents and putting them into practice. - See more at: adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html#sthash.0uLysIph.dpuf

I really don’t care when or how it was decided to reform the Mass or that the Church should experiment with all the craziness that it did soon after the council. The fact is it happened and all one has to do is look at the state of the Church in general and world today to see the results of those actions. I pray the Church will have better foresight today and in future to realize its actions have consequences. Sadly some of the headlines I’ve seen lately have suggested otherwise.

Our Catholic culture and identity is hardly to be found, the pews, convents, and monasteries are empty, and parishes are closing all over the place. I can’t imagine how things will be in another 10 years at this rate.

 

[SWolf]

I really don’t care when or how it was decided to reform the Mass or that the Church should experiment with all the craziness that it did soon after the council. The fact is it happened and all one has to do is look at the state of the Church in general and world today to see the results of those actions. I pray the Church will have better foresight today and in future to realize its actions have consequences. Sadly some of the headlines I’ve seen lately have suggested otherwise.

Our Catholic culture and identity is hardly to be found, the pews, convents, and monasteries are empty, and parishes are closing all over the place. I can’t imagine how things will be in another 10 years at this rate.

Let’s not forget one of the main architects of the VII document also was one of the core people who made the new liturgy.

 

[jeannetherese]

The “sacrificial nature” is equal in both forms, and you do a great disservice to the reader to imply otherwise.

Greetings Sirach2.
I wonder if there might be a misinterpretation of GP’s post?
I read it as suggesting that The EF tends to focus especially upon the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Such a suggestion could allow for both the EF and the OF to have and equal sacrificial nature but, perhaps, a different degree of emphasis upon sacrifice.

One of my OF priests uses slightly different language to discuss shifts in focus; he speaks of horizontal and vertical emphases.

May God bless all who visit this thread.
Amen.

 

[SWolf]

Greetings Sirach2.
I wonder if there might be a misinterpretation of GP’s post?
I read it as suggesting that The EF tends to focus especially upon the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Such a suggestion could allow for both the EF and the OF to have and equal sacrificial nature but, perhaps, a different degree of emphasis upon sacrifice.

One of my OF priests uses slightly different language to discuss shifts in focus; he speaks of horizontal and vertical emphases.

May God bless all who visit this thread.
Amen.

Thanks! You said it much better than I could have.

 

[gracepoole]

Not so, and you paint with unjustified speech. The “sacrificial nature” is equal in both forms, and you do a great disservice to the reader to imply otherwise. This is what disturbs many folks who hear comments like yours. It has nothing to do with being “personal in nature” but rather, based on a love for truth which is distorted by those making false claims such as this. You would do well to undertake an authentic study of the Mass.

With all due respect (truly), I’m not naive regarding the history of the Mass. What’s a poor misrepresentation is the claim that anyone who thinks the differences present in the EF are valuable is uneducated. Anyone who thinks I’m implying anything that’s incorrect and doing anyone a disservice needs to be a bit more observant of connotation and denotation. I don’t believe or claim that the Church determined at VII and via post-conciliar reforms that the OF should no longer emphasis the sacrifice of the Mass. Connotatively, however, there’s no way to deny that the sign of peace, the priest facing parishioners, etc. all change the tone of the experience. That doesn’t mean one form is superior or invalid. And the Church doesn’t claim as much either.