Lazarus and the Rich Man

[rinnie]

Yes. I have answered questions many times and you continue to badger. I believe that very soon indeed you will be on my ignore list.

No Mickey you never answered my question. Is paradise and Heaven the same place?

 

[rinnie]

Then again, this is not a specific person so I doubt that rule applies. He is nameless because he has lost his identity in Hell, whereas in Heaven, we are each given a new name.

Now see that goes against the teachings of Mickey. Mickey said this is a specific person and the reason his name is not given is because he did not make it into the book. Now whats it gonna be?

 

[rinnie]

In post 167 Mickey said once you die, its too late to plead or beg for mercy. Then what was the rich man doing. I see that he was pleading for mercy. What gives here:shrug:

 

[rinnie]

The rich man had no virtues. He was suffering in torments and looking for pity. Is that clear enough for you?
Once you die, it is too late to plead for mercy and/or repent. That is why his request was not answered.

It is extremely strong.

Not to me.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Now see that goes against the teachings of Mickey. Mickey said this is a specific person and the reason his name is not given is because he did not make it into the book. Now whats it gonna be?

by specific person I mean we cannot identify who this person was. In fact, we know Lazarus is a real person, a saint in fact. But the rich man could either be a real person (which I think is the case) or generlized description of what to avoid to not be like him. Either way, cannoizing a PERSON means you must be able to identify them, like St. Padre Pio, St. Ephrem, St. Thomas, etc.

Exceptions of this case are in the positive direction (Heaven), like the Holy Innocents and the mother with her Seven children (I think in Daniel), and the rich man in the negative direction.

Has anyone read what St. Thomas Aquinas has to say on this?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

In post 167 Mickey said once you die, its too late to plead or beg for mercy. Then what was the rich man doing. I see that he was pleading for mercy. What gives here:shrug:

I answered this already. He wants to minimize his punishment in Hell by trying to save his brothers from coming there by the life he led.

 

[Mickey]

by specific person I mean we cannot identify who this person was. In fact, we know Lazarus is a real person, a saint in fact. But the rich man could either be a real person (which I think is the case) or generlized description of what to avoid to not be like him.

Yes. And St Nicholai tells us that the rich man and those like him are removed from the book of life.

 

[Mickey]

In this story, we see strong evidence of post death individuality including memories.

Yes.

 

[Mickey]

no one know Gods Mercy. Except Mickey of course

I certainly know that God is all merciful. But I know that you meant this as a snipe. And so, I have put up with your lack of charity for much too long. I will respond to everyone else on this thread, but rinnie is now officially on my ignore list.

May God bless rinnie on her journey.

 

[Mickey]

I answered this already.

She is going to keep asking until she gets the answer she wants.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Yes. And St Nicholai tells us that the rich man and those like him are removed from the book of life.

yeah, I just read St. Ambrose say “his name was blotted from the book of life”

If this is the same Jesus uses the “rich man” to indicated that

Luke 12.19-20
“And I will say to my soul.** the rich man** said, Soul, thou hast many good things laid up for many years; take thy ease, eat, drink, be merry. But God said to him, Thou fool, this night do they demand thy soul of thee.”[24]

Matthew 19:24
24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

James 1:11
For the sun rose with a burning heat, and parched the grass, and the flower thereof fell off, and the beauty of the shape thereof perished: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

I know in other places it described men as rich but later they gave up their money or did other great feats and the Sacred Author is doing that to basically show conversion.

 

[Mickey]

yeah, I just read St. Ambrose say “his name was blotted from the book of life”

If this is the same Jesus uses the “rich man” to indicated that

Luke 12.19-20
“And I will say to my soul.** the rich man** said, Soul, thou hast many good things laid up for many years; take thy ease, eat, drink, be merry. But God said to him, Thou fool, this night do they demand thy soul of thee.”[24]

Matthew 19:24
24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

James 1:11
For the sun rose with a burning heat, and parched the grass, and the flower thereof fell off, and the beauty of the shape thereof perished: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

I know in other places it described men as rich but later they gave up their money or did other great feats and the Sacred Author is doing that to basically show conversion.

Amen and amen!

 

[rinnie]

by specific person I mean we cannot identify who this person was. In fact, we know Lazarus is a real person, a saint in fact. But the rich man could either be a real person (which I think is the case) or generlized description of what to avoid to not be like him. Either way, cannoizing a PERSON means you must be able to identify them, like St. Padre Pio, St. Ephrem, St. Thomas, etc.

Exceptions of this case are in the positive direction (Heaven), like the Holy Innocents and the mother with her Seven children (I think in Daniel), and the rich man in the negative direction.

Has anyone read what St. Thomas Aquinas has to say on this?

What I was taught that the rich man could be any of us. That is what we are taught. When Jesus speaks in parables he isn’t speaking of a certain person. This is not a parable of Lazarus it is a parable of A rich man. It is a lesson for us all. Mickey says I am wrong. that it is a certain person, thats why he does not have a name. Again that is not what my church teaches.

 

[rinnie]

Again in all of those quotes. It is saying that if a person does not do what is right he will have a hard time getting into heaven. God never said a rich man cannot get into heaven. Again unreal. So what now if you are rich you are going to hell. This story could also go for someone that is very very poor. If you are poor and you do not share and help one another you are just as doomed.

 

[jmcrae]

What I was taught that the rich man could be any of us. That is what we are taught. When Jesus speaks in parables he isn’t speaking of a certain person. This is not a parable of Lazarus it is a parable of A rich man. It is a lesson for us all. Mickey says I am wrong. that it is a certain person, thats why he does not have a name. Again that is not what my church teaches.

The Church also teaches that the rich man is in Hell. It is Lazarus who is in a third state called the “bosom of Abraham,” or else “Paradise” (which is not Purgatory, since Purgatory had not yet been created).

All that this parable demonstrates, with regard to states in the afterlife, is that there are third states. It does not specifically demonstrate the existence of Purgatory. There are other parables that prophecy about the existence of Purgatory, and other scripture verses from the later parts of the New Testament that affirm its existence, after it had been created.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

f you are poor and you do not share and help one another you are just as doomed.

not exactly. To whom much is given, much is required. To whom little is given, little is required.

They have their poverty which is a much different thing from having money.

 

[rinnie]

The Church also teaches that the rich man is in Hell. It is Lazarus who is in a third state called the “bosom of Abraham,” or else “Paradise” (which is not Purgatory, since Purgatory had not yet been created).

All that this parable demonstrates, with regard to states in the afterlife, is that there are third states. It does not specifically demonstrate the existence of Purgatory. There are other parables that prophecy about the existence of Purgatory, and other scripture verses from the later parts of the New Testament that affirm its existence, after it had been created.

It cant because only the righteous will see paradise. Also you cannot show mercy in hell. If you show mercy you are showing grace from God. It tells you no one in hell shows mercy for anyone. Thats why they are there. You neither get mercy or give mercy. Again mercy means you are using the grace God gave you. Without grace you cannot even show Mercy. There are no graces in hell!

 

[rinnie]

Yes. And St Nicholai tells us that the rich man and those like him are removed from the book of life.

But that is his opinion. Is that a formal teaching of the Church, Again does the Church stand by the teaching Of St Nicholai?

 

[jmcrae]

It cant because only the righteous will see paradise. Also you cannot show mercy in hell. If you show mercy you are showing grace from God. It tells you no one in hell shows mercy for anyone. Thats why they are there. You neither get mercy or give mercy. Again mercy means you are using the grace God gave you. Without grace you cannot even show Mercy. There are no graces in hell!

Hell is simply the “not Heaven” afterlife. There is no Beatific vision, and there are no graces, but people retain their personalities and their memories. They can still think of others. Thinking of others does not mean that you are praying for them, or that you are doing something good for them.

People in Hell are punished according to the degree of their wickedness, but if someone goes to Hell who was never wicked (but who also never became a member of the Church) they would not be punished in Hell; they would simply not be having the Beatific Vision. There would also be the deep disappointment of not having become the person that God had created them to become - an agonizing thought, to be sure!

Again, it is Lazarus who is experiencing a third state, something like Purgatory. The rich man may or may not be in a third state, but it seems pretty clear that he is in a hopeless situation, so it is not “wrong” to interpret it as the Hell of the damned.

 

[rinnie]

Hell is simply the “not Heaven” afterlife. There is no Beatific vision, and there are no graces, but people retain their personalities and their memories. They can still think of others. Thinking of others does not mean that you are praying for them, or that you are doing something good for them.

People in Hell are punished according to the degree of their wickedness, but if someone goes to Hell who was never wicked (but who also never became a member of the Church) they would not be punished in Hell; they would simply not be having the Beatific Vision. There would also be the deep disappointment of not having become the person that God had created them to become - an agonizing thought, to be sure!

Again, it is Lazarus who is experiencing a third state, something like Purgatory. The rich man may or may not be in a third state, but it seems pretty clear that he is in a hopeless situation, so it is not “wrong” to interpret it as the Hell of the damned.

Again I disagree. Because in the bible it tells us we must all be purified before we get to heaven, The way I see it Abraham got through, Lazarus did, and the rich man is still being purified. This makes much sense. Other wise why does the bible say we all must be cleansed before we go to heaven. And again paradise does in no way mean heaven, Again the good thief could account for that. Jesus said you will be with me in paradise. Another wards he forgave his sin, so he had no mortal sin. but he must also be cleansed from any remaining sin. He never said heaven did he. Only the Father was in Heaven. That is how they can tie in together. There was a heaven from the get go. It took Jesus to help us get in,