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Mickey
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Nah. It was not intentional Steve. I do not start fights. I asked the moderators to remove it.
You know I love ya, man!
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Chaldean_Rite
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Good song!Nah. It was not intentional Steve. I do not start fights. I asked the moderators to remove it.
You know I love ya, man!
youtube.com/watch?v=MLYpdKWS0Xg
ok bye guys.
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steve_b
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This is why I said the parable is reasonable to consider the rich man is in a place of purification. Go back and look through the posts by clicking on the blue arrows of our conversations. Didn’t I talk about the Jewish understanding? Yes.
Didn’t I say this was a reasonable understanding of purgatory? Yes. Was I dogmatic on it? No
But with all your editing of what I said one would not get that idea
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Mickey
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Yes. And very few agree with you. Let us see what Pope Benedict goes on to say:
With death, our life-choice becomes definitive—our life stands before the judge. Our choice, which in the course of an entire life takes on a certain shape, can have a variety of forms. There can be people who have totally destroyed their desire for truth and readiness to love, people for whom everything has become a lie, people who have lived for hatred and have suppressed all love within themselves. This is a terrifying thought, but alarming profiles of this type can be seen in certain figures of our own history. In such people all would be beyond remedy and the destruction of good would be irrevocable: this is what we mean by the word Hell**37**]. **On the other hand there can be people who are utterly pure, completely permeated by God, and thus fully open to their neighbours—people for whom communion with God even now gives direction to their entire being and whose journey towards God only brings to fulfilment what they already are38].
This would be the situation of the rich man (in bold). Pope Benedict never says that the rich man in the parable is in purgatory. Do not twist his words.
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Mickey
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“The rich man, represents the unfair use of wealth for unbridled and selfish luxury by people who only think about their own satisfaction unconcerned by the beggar standing at their door. By contrast, the poor represents those only God takes care; unlike the rich man, the poor man has a name, Lazarus, short for Eleazar, ‘the one God has helped’.”
Pope Benedict XVI
Pope Benedict XVI
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Mickey
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To those on his left, he will say the saddest words that will ever be heard, which will pierce his sacred heart to the core: “Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you told me to get a job, I was a stranger and you told me I was an illegal alien and refused to help me, naked and you gawked at me, sick and you said I was somebody else’s problem to care for, in prison and you said I deserved to die” (cf. Mt 25:41-43). These people will go to eternal perdition, not necessarily because they did evil, but because they did nothing. We see the same lesson in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man in St. Luke’s Gospel (Lk 16). The Rich Man ended up eternally lost not because he did any tangible harm to the poor man at his door, but because he never did anything to help him. In turning his back on the Lazarus, the Rich Man was turning his back on Christ.
catholicpreaching.com/index.php?content=homilies&homilies=20060507
catholicpreaching.com/index.php?content=homilies&homilies=20060507
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Mickey
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CCC 633
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—*Sheol *in Hebrew or *Hades *in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision
of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—*Sheol *in Hebrew or *Hades *in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision
of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.
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Mickey
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**CCC 1021 **
Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul-a destiny which can be different for some and for others.
Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul-a destiny which can be different for some and for others.
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Mickey
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St. John** Chrysostom:**
“As it made the poor man’s affliction heavier while he lived to lie before the rich man’s gate and to behold the prosperity of others, so when the rich man was dead it added to his desolation that he lay in hell and saw the happiness of Lazarus. He felt not only
the nature of his own torments but also his own punishment the more intolerable by comparing it to Lazarus’ honor.”
“As it made the poor man’s affliction heavier while he lived to lie before the rich man’s gate and to behold the prosperity of others, so when the rich man was dead it added to his desolation that he lay in hell and saw the happiness of Lazarus. He felt not only
the nature of his own torments but also his own punishment the more intolerable by comparing it to Lazarus’ honor.”
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steve_b
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Pope Benedict never said he wasn’t. Read again what he said and that I posted
[emphasis mine]
“We must note that in this parable Jesus is not referring to the final destiny after the Last Judgement, but is taking up a notion found,* inter alia*, in early Judaism, namely that of an intermediate state between death and resurrection, a state in which the final sentence is yet to be pronounced.
45. This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory”
What produces purification? Fire. It can both destroy AND purify without destroying…at the same time. Just as Paul said in 1 Cor 3: 12-15 A man will suffer loss but will ultimately be saved as one escaping through fire. Who’s the one suffering in fire?
I posted the Jewish encyclopedia for definition of terms. jewfaq.org/search.htm
Search gehenna.
Catholics and Orthodox Jews agree that purification occures after death. Obviously, particulars we understand differently. Also the possibility of hell as we know it.
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Mickey
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I read it the first time. You read it again Steve. Pope Benedict is saying that this parable indicates an intermediate state (because Christ has not yet Risen). Hence, Lazarus foretastes heaven and the rich man foretastes hell. Neither one is in purgatory. He goes on to talk about the Jewish idea of an intermediate state and the gradual development of purgatory. But you still have not shown where Pope Benedict or any other source says that the rich man is in purgatory? Got anything else Steve–besides your own interpretations?
This would be relevant for the purgatory thread. Take it there please.
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Mickey
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PS Steve–Since you and rinnie agree that the rich man is in purgatory and the dead can repent—and rinnie has decided to leave this thread (though she’s on my ignore list anyway), I’ll bet you two are in frequent private message mode.
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steve_b
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Mickey
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Try as you may–Pope Benedict is not saying that the rich man is in purgatory. Does the Pope believe in the doctrine of purgatory? Of course. Is he saying that the rich man is in purgatory? No.
Got it? Good.
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steve_b
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And he didn’t say he wasn’t. In fact I would suggest based on what he said, he leaves that possibility open
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Mickey
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to consider the rich man is in a place of purification.
Lol! You have posted an excerpt from one encyclical where you attempt to twist Pope Benedict’s words to fit into your skewed understanding of the parable.
I have posted numerous examples from patristic sources, saints, and the CCC.
Your interpretation is NOT reasonable. There is nothing reasonable about it.
Here’s another one for you, Steve:
“Was the rich man condemned because he had riches, because he abounded in earthly possessions, because he ‘dressed in purple and linen and feasted sumptuously every day’? No. It was not for wealth that the rich man was condemned. Here is the reason. The rich man was condemned because he did not pay attention to the other man, because he failed to take notice of Lazarus, the person who sat at his door and who longed to eat the scraps from his table. Nowhere does Christ condemn the mere possession of earthly goods as such. Instead, He pronounces very harsh words against those who use their possessions in a selfish way, without paying attention to the needs of others.”
Pope John Paul II
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wintersnow
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Mickey why do you believe that the Pope agree’s with you and only what you think? Where does the Pope say that the rich man is not in purgatory. And are you saying that the Pope deny’s purgatory on any level?
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Mickey
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Read the quotes from the saints I supplied. In fact, read my last post. Pope John Paul II says the rich man is condemned.
No. I am saying that nowhere in the history of the Church does it say that the rich man in the parable is in purgatory. The rich man is condemned. It is too late for him to repent.
Of course the Pope believes in purgatory. The Pope proclaimed the doctrine in the 13th century.
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steve_b
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I think the last example you give was a homily by JPII
Do you remember challenging me with this question? I suppose It was your parting shot that was supposed to be heard round the world.
Well, I gave you the encyclical. And we read it together. Though through your editing agenda,
*]you leave out all the text in context that goes against you.
*]The text that you DO post really doesn’t have the meaning you give it
*]because bottomline you reject purgatory.
The encyclical I posted goes into more explanation and detail of the parable we’re discussing and what its possibilities are.
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