Lazarus and the Rich Man

[Mickey]

I said that while this might be true, its not explicitly said in the actual parable, which does not preclude the fact that he could be in Purgatory.

Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition tell us nothing about your purgatory theory.

The parable never says he didn’t grumble. and complain. You inferred that

Wrong again, pal. Sacred Tradition tells us of his fortitiude.

In fact, the parable is silent on all the facts of Lazarus’ life other than the fact that he suffered in poverty.

Sacred Tradition tells us much more.

I don’t believe there is enough information to say whether he is in heaven or Purgatory or Limbo

Pope John Paul II and many Church Fathers tell us heaven. Do you disagree with them?

 

[Mickey]

You said, He went straight to heaven.

Actually, Pope John Paul II and many of the Church Fathers and saints say that.

 

[paul_c]

Yes, and that would be a position taken by a protestant. But we know better. We have Church Tradition and the Holy Fathers are part of that Tradition.

Are you protestant?

Hardly.

I agree with you that we have tradition. I am merely pointing out to you that you are doing a double inferrence. you are inferring that Lazarous is in heaven, therefore you are inferring that he must have acted piously in his suffering to do so. But what if he wasn’t in heaven? then he could have grumbled about it and had to do some time in Purgatory. This thread is about the parable. I’m just pointing out that the parable isn’t specific about lazurus’s reaction to his poverty, other than to say he was rewarded for it.

Any way, its a tertiary point, not worth further discussion.

 

[rinnie]

Paul think about it, we know he wasn’t in heaven. It was Jesus is who opened up heaven.

1 Peter 3:19 4:6 Jesus preached to the spirits in the Prison.

Are these not the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision?

 

[Mickey]

I agree with you that we have tradition. I am merely pointing out to you that you are doing a double inferrence. you are inferring that Lazarous is in heaven, therefore you are inferring that he must have acted piously in his suffering to do so.

Again, it is Tradition that tells us—not Mickey.

I am guessing that the answer to my question is that you disagree with John Paul II and the Holy Fathers and saints.

Oh well, as I have said before, you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Mickey]

we know he wasn’t in heaven.

On the contrary—Popes, theologians, Church Fathers and saints—tell us that he was.

 

[paul_c]

On the contrary—Popes, theologians, Church Fathers and saints—tell us that he was.

I’m not actively disagreeing with anyone on the point of whether its Heaven, Purgatory or Limbo. I said, and will continue to say, I don’t know and you can’t tell from the actual scriptural reference.
And I’m perfectly willing to take the lead from JPII on this. But again, I don’t think the issue is even the point of the parable.

 

[Mickey]

I don’t know and you can’t tell from the actual scriptural reference.

A protestant would use sola Scriptura in the same way. But we are blessed and fortunate to have Sacred Tradition as our guide.

I don’t think the issue is even the point of the parable.

The parable is rich with theology.

 

[jmcrae]

Hold on, isn’t limbo rejected now.

Perhaps you are thinking of the Limbo of Infants - different concept altogether. And not “rejected” - just not commonly held.

But purgatory still holds true? Or could limbo being cleaned out, be the only difference between limbo and purgatory? Same place, less people?

No. The Limbo of the Fathers was emptied out and ceased to exist when Jesus rose from the dead.

Purgatory began to exist when Heaven was opened up to the whole human race - at the same moment. But it’s not the same “place,” if you think of them as “places.” Limbo was a place of wating, and as a side effect also a place of purification - but they could have been fully purified; they still had to wait for Jesus to come. But in Purgatory, as soon as you are purified, you go to Heaven. Also, the Limbo of the Fathers was a place of bliss, but Purgatory is a place of temporal punishment.

 

[rinnie]

Perhaps you are thinking of the Limbo of Infants - different concept altogether. And not “rejected” - just not commonly held.

No. The Limbo of the Fathers was emptied out and ceased to exist when Jesus rose from the dead.

Purgatory began to exist when Heaven was opened up to the whole human race - at the same moment. But it’s not the same “place,” if you think of them as “places.” Limbo was a place of wating, and as a side effect also a place of purification - but they could have been fully purified; they still had to wait for Jesus to come. But in Purgatory, as soon as you are purified, you go to Heaven. Also, the Limbo of the Fathers was a place of bliss, but Purgatory is a place of temporal punishment.

Ok. You are right I was confusing the two.

But explain this to me if you can.

This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of tempory custody but as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are being punished or experiencing a provisonal bliss. There is also the idea this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God.

 

[paul_c]

Perhaps you are thinking of the Limbo of Infants - different concept altogether. And not “rejected” - just not commonly held.

No. The Limbo of the Fathers was emptied out and ceased to exist when Jesus rose from the dead.

Purgatory began to exist when Heaven was opened up to the whole human race - at the same moment. But it’s not the same “place,” if you think of them as “places.” Limbo was a place of wating, and as a side effect also a place of purification - but they could have been fully purified; they still had to wait for Jesus to come. But in Purgatory, as soon as you are purified, you go to Heaven. Also, the Limbo of the Fathers was a place of bliss, but Purgatory is a place of temporal punishment.

So how do you answer Realcatholic’s argument that time doesn’t exist for God and that therefore, there wasn’t a limbo of the Fathers separate from purgatory, because there wasn’t a wait for Jesus to come?

 

[jmcrae]

So how do you answer Realcatholic’s argument that time doesn’t exist for God and that therefore, there wasn’t a limbo of the Fathers separate from purgatory, because there wasn’t a wait for Jesus to come?

I think that time is experienced differently in the afterlife, but I don’t think the concept of events occuring in sequence stops altogether, from our point of view (otherwise, if we had moral certainty that we were going to Heaven, we could take ourselves as our own Patron Saints) - there is still a sense of “before” and “after” even in Heaven.

I am speaking of our own point of view - obviously, God sees everything all at once, and for Him, there is no “before” or “after” except for when He enters into time to act on events as they are occurring. But we do not become God, in the afterlife.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

So how do you answer Realcatholic’s argument that time doesn’t exist for God and that therefore, there wasn’t a limbo of the Fathers separate from purgatory, because there wasn’t a wait for Jesus to come?

**Hi Paul,

It really is difficult to think outside our physical realm or individual fields of the five senses. They are a part of who we are and how we preceive things as human beings. This is a definite limitation when we attempt to discuss God. We then have to imagine another dimension, other than the one we are all familiar with. Another reality then the one we can see, feel, smell, taste or touch. There are physical examples of our ability to extend our sensory perception, i.e., extending or sight by the use of a telescope or TV. Extending our sense of hearing by the use of a radio, or telephone; etc. Because of what I will call a physical barrier caused by our body’s sense perception, we have difficulty when trying to understand events outside the physical world, such as the ‘realm’ of God.
Throughout the ages, one question that many people have asked is: “Who made God?” When the answer given is something like, “God has always been; He has no beginning, nor an end”. A none believer usually goes away more confused then prior to asking the question. Why do you suppose that is?
Obviously one reason is because we operate in a world based on ‘time’. Trying to think of a state of existence without duration of time, just doesn’t fit our human perception we use in our daily lives, therefore, if we wish to consider the nature of God further, we must try to think differently. Here’s a good example that some people have experienced. Suppose we lived in a world of no clocks, no timekeeping devices, not even a sundial. We would still know time, but in a much wider sense, like how long it took for us to walk from one town to the next, the time to perform work, etc. The rising and setting of the sun would still be our main sign also. Now, let’s take away the rising and setting of the sun. If you talk to those who live very long at the poles, you’ll hear about experiences such as six months of daylight, or six months of night. Most of them will tell you about losing the ‘sense of time’. Let’s suppose again, living in that environment, and you have no watch for six months. I’m sure it would be easy to become very disoriented, between wake and sleep, and remembering whether the chores you did the day before was fact, or possibly just a dream. Time is only relevant as long as we are aware of it as a duration. (If this explanation isn’t abstract enough for you, read up on Einstein’s theories dealing with time.) Another way of thinking about this state, is to imagine what your sense of reality would be if you had no physical senses at all, No touch, taste, smell, sight or hearing, just being, or the intellect of the soul. It’s difficult to think in these terms being human, and it should be, for our Father had a definite reason for restricting our knowledge using the limitations of the body. We can not possess the knowledge of God all we can hope is to realize that we don’t know the knowledge of God except what he wants to reveal to us!
But I don’t think the issues being discuss are even the point of the parable. It isn’t about locations. It is about justice, greed and causing me to get a bad headache!

God Bless **

 

[Benadam]

Actually, Pope John Paul II and many of the Church Fathers and saints say that.

Manoman if there ever was a candidate for instantaneous beatitude it would be a man of lifelong suffering that Christ unites Himself to and calls by name. The reference to him rising from the dead as a sign to sinners kinda cinches it for me. Lazarus is an image of suffering that make the images of Christ attached to him a sign of ajourney to God complete. Purgatory for him was a thing of the past not the future IMHO.

 

[Mickey]

Lazarus is an image of suffering that makes the images of Christ attached to him a sign of a journey to God complete.

Amen, brother!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**

Hi Friends,

I just wanted to invite you to a lighthearted Thread I started asking about Humor in Catholicism. Come and see what you think!

Click On: Is There Humor in Catholicism**

God Bless

 

[rinnie]

Here is something I have been thinking about all week. This parable is about The rich man and Lazarus. Now the Rich man at this point in the game is not the question any longer.

The point is this, in the OT they prayed for the Dead also. Just like we do today. That is a fact. Now Where was Lazarus. Regardless of the fact he was not in Heaven, And he was not in hell. Easy, Hell is total separation with God. Heaven is completely UNITED with God. So back to square one where was Lazarus and Abraham? Rather purgatory is a state or place does not matter. The fact of the Matter and the point of this whole thread is this, there is a middle place. Or OTHER place. And this parables proves this.

There is no way that this takes away in any part the Death of our Lord, he died for our sins so we could live. How do we know this because with sin, brings death. Jesus took that away. Jesus preached to the souls in Prison… I am sure he baptised them there. Again in Prison, is it hell, or Heaven, Answer could not be neither. Another PLACE. POINT OF PARABLE IMO. One point of many point may I add.

Now If someone could show me teaching that the purgatory of today the cleansing of our souls, because nothing unclean can enter heaven and the Cleansing of the souls in the OT is not the same thing please show me the teachings.

If you cannot, then it shows the Point. There is another place. There was then and there is now.

One because it said it in the OT. Hades was a waiting and cleansing place or state does not matter. And purgatory is also a wating and cleasing state.

How do I know because it is the teaching of the RCC that purgatory does indeed exist. The Pope does in fact agree with this teaching. So we must obey the teaching of our Pope.

So until someone can show me the teaching that the cleansing place did not exist then, and does not exist today I have to say this could still be proof there is another state, back then and today.
Thany you and now I have a game to Watch. God Bless!

 

[Benadam]

Here is something I have been thinking about all week. This parable is about The rich man and Lazarus. Now the Rich man at this point in the game is not the question any longer.

The point is this, in the OT they prayed for the Dead also. Just like we do today. That is a fact. Now Where was Lazarus. Regardless of the fact he was not in Heaven, And he was not in hell. Easy, Hell is total separation with God. Heaven is completely UNITED with God. So back to square one where was Lazarus and Abraham? Rather purgatory is a state or place does not matter. The fact of the Matter and the point of this whole thread is this, there is a middle place. Or OTHER place. And this parables proves this.

There is no way that this takes away in any part the Death of our Lord, he died for our sins so we could live. How do we know this because with sin, brings death. Jesus took that away. Jesus preached to the souls in Prison… I am sure he baptised them there. Again in Prison, is it hell, or Heaven, Answer could not be neither. Another PLACE. POINT OF PARABLE IMO. One point of many point may I add.

Now If someone could show me teaching that the purgatory of today the cleansing of our souls, because nothing unclean can enter heaven and the Cleansing of the souls in the OT is not the same thing please show me the teachings.

If you cannot, then it shows the Point. There is another place. There was then and there is now.

One because it said it in the OT. Hades was a waiting and cleansing place or state does not matter. And purgatory is also a wating and cleasing state.

How do I know because it is the teaching of the RCC that purgatory does indeed exist. The Pope does in fact agree with this teaching. So we must obey the teaching of our Pope.

So until someone can show me the teaching that the cleansing place did not exist then, and does not exist today I have to say this could still be proof there is another state, back then and today.
Thany you and now I have a game to Watch. God Bless!

When I read this it put a big smile on my face. Your progression of conceptions have reached the simplicity required for your mind to reach all the way around it. It’s simply a middle place, that in relation to God is pretty much the same as on earth except we have no body and can no longer change in of ourselves the condition of the state we died in.

Untill the presence of Christ entered. Imagine the effect the presence of a soul that had never known an imperfection had on the souls there. Imagine how the souls who knew what they were waiting for felt like. Imagine the effect on souls who scioffed at the idea of perfection while living.

Now imagine Jesus ascensding to His Father , remember this is a state of elevating dignity not a rising in a place, and how that presence would efect the experience of all the souls seperated from their bodies since the time of Adam.

It’s a state of being without a body. When God entered a state of being without a body eternity entered that state as wel. Judgement and Santification entered the state of being seperated from bodies.

When our earthly lives ended with a body seperated from our soul and in a state that was not intended to be permanent in relation to His presence but ended in this unnatural seperation we call death, God had to come get us.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I haven’t been around much lately due to ice storms in my neck of the woods and I do not presently have the time to go back and read what I missed and reply to it but before my phone lines went dead, I did place an inquiry and here is the OFFICIAL reply that I received on this matter …

I don’t have time to get involved with this one but remember the Church is not definitive on this and while the rich man could have been in hell, he showed mercy on his brothers, which is a grace that the reprobate are deprived of.

… A question has been asked in the opening post and now it has been answered. I will now bow out of this discussion.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I haven’t been around much lately due to ice storms in my neck of the woods and I do not presently have the time to go back and read what I missed and reply to it but before my phone lines went dead, I did place an inquiry and here is the OFFICIAL reply that I received on this matter …

… A question has been asked in the opening post and now it has been answered. I will now bow out of this discussion.

**
Hi Sir Knight,
Glad you are back with us However a little corection. Unless that reply came from the Magisterium or the Pope, it isn’t OFFICIAL, it is just another opinion!

I personally think the Rich man is in hell. But it was a parable. Jesus wasn’t teaching about anything but greed and reward for following him instead of the idols of money, power, and position! Everyone wants to know where the rich man and Lazarus was. I could tell that the rich man in the story could easliy be a Protestant. How? Even In Hell, he had his own ideas as to how things should be done which seemed logical to him rather then trusting and understanding how God wanted this to happen! **