LDS: Why try to convert Catholics, what do we lack for salvation?

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, once again I am puzzled by your post–I am not seeing how you are relating what I have written about my own conversion from being a secular Jew to faith in Christ to what JS said.

From your comments it seems a safe bet that you and unfamiliar with the details of my conversion (which I’ve posted about on CAF), yet you appear to not so subtly be implying that my faith is an abomination.

At least, that is the way I am reading your post. If this is NOT what you meant to say, fine, but if it IS what you mean to say, well, I would suggest that such comments are rather rude and hurtful, again–from what you write it is evident that you are unaware of the details of my conversion–which had nothing to do with any creeds whatsoever. So such implications are not only rude, but also incorrect factually.

As for the BoM and JS, I’m a former LDS investigator who has read the entire BoM and who is well aware of the JS quote you provided above. I spent a LOT of time praying sincerely about the LDS Church, yet I never got the answer that the missionaries and ward members were hoping I would get.

I would appreciate an explanation of your post.

sablouwho,

I do not believe your conversion is an abomination. Quite the opposite. You conversion experience is a testament to the love and work of Christ.

What bothers me is that ParkerD told you how he “totally believes your conversion experience,” while the Book of Mormon says, “Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil.”

So, according to the Book of Mormon, which Church do you think Mormons believe you belong to?

I had a brief membership in the Mormon Church, only to discover, with great horror and distress, what they really believe. The LDS missionaries are very skilled in their presentations, and they avoid the controversial doctrines, which many converts never learn, until they are baptized into the Mormon church.

So, it is out of concern for you, that I have provided the LDS quotes. I don’t want you or anyone else to be deceived about the Mormon religion.

I rejoice in your acceptance of Christ. I’m sorry I wasn’t clear about this in my posts.

In Christ,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna can answer for herself, but I think she was pointing out that Joseph Smith is one who claimed that “your faith” is an abomination. She gave the quotes from the Book of Mormon, which imply that any faith/creed other than LDS is an abomination in the eyes of God.

(If I remember correctly, Anna was once LDS and feels very betrayed by what she found out about their beliefs after she joined. I apologize to Anna if I am remembering incorrectly. )

You remembered correctly.

Thank you,
Anna

 

[sablouwho]

sablouwho- I found your conversion story to be inspiring.

Thank you. I really appreciate your saying so. Even 4 years into my faith, I still struggle to “hold on” to it because I marinated in agnostic skepticism for sooooo many years. Thus, getting feedback from other believers is really helpful. It is a good reminder for me that “this is REALLY real” at times when I doubt, or don’t “feel” it (which is often).

Are you aware of the Association of Hebrew Catholics?

Yes, I am, thank you. I have only been slightly involved with them in participating in their Yahoo group. I think that perhaps I should consider further involvement. It might help me better deal with my “dual identity.”

It’s so cute the way Catholics on CAF are looking out for me. So many of you have referred me to the AHC! I really appreciate it.

Thank you Rebecca!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thank you. I really appreciate your saying so. Even 4 years into my faith, I still struggle to “hold on” to it because I marinated in agnostic skepticism for sooooo many years. Thus, getting feedback from other believers is really helpful. It is a good reminder for me that “this is REALLY real” at times when I doubt, or don’t “feel” it (which is often).

Oh yeah, I get this. I came Home from atheism. It is why for so long, months, even after my baptism, I prayed a lot for Jesus to keep me with Him. Only because I know myself. I was convinced for a long time that I had a retarded soul. Seriously though, I wondered.

Yes, I am, thank you. I have only been slightly involved with them in participating in their Yahoo group. I think that perhaps I should consider further involvement. It might help me better deal with my “dual identity.”

It’s so cute the way Catholics on CAF are looking out for me. So many of you have referred me to the AHC! I really appreciate it.

Thank you Rebecca!

No, thank you. I know so little about Judaism and I LOVE hearing about it, especially how it relates to our Catholic faith. I hope you post more about this aspect of your journey.

About month or so ago I was at a Jewish Temple, for work purposes (long story). A bunch of us walked in and the Rabbi asked, “Are you here for Bible worship?” LOL!

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna Scott,
A book by Orson Pratt never was LDS teaching. It was his opinion, solely. This has been explained to you several times, but I guess you choose not to think as you read–your choice.

Yes, ParkerD, this has been “explained” to me many times—just as you have “explained” to me many times that Second Mormon Prophet, Brigham Young’s claim that “Adam is our Father and God” was never a part of LDS Church teaching–even though Brigham Young taught this for more than 20 years, and being a Mormon “prophet,” claimed this was revealed to him by God, and that he could not find any man on the earth who could tell him this, until he met and talked with Joseph Smith.

Yes, ParkerD, these things have been explained to me many times.

Anna

ParkerD,

Do you accept this statement by Mormon Prophet Woodruff?

4th President and Prophet of the Mormon Church, Wilford Woodruff (Served 1887–1898):
“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” ( The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, sel. G. Homer Durham [1946], 212–13.)

Thank you,
Anna

 

[sablouwho]

I do not believe your conversion is an abomination. Quite the opposite. You conversion experience is a testament to the love and work of Christ.

Ah, okay, I am So relieved. Thank you for the clarification. I apologize for my reaction–I obviously did not understand what you meant and misconstrued your meaning.

What bothers me is that ParkerD told you how he “totally believes your conversion experience,” while the Book of Mormon says, “Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil.”

So, according to the Book of Mormon, which Church do you think Mormons believe you belong to?

Indeed, the BoM does have some pretty strong language against other churches. One of the difficulties I have with the BoM is how it “miraculously” (or perhaps “conveniently” would be the better term) addresses a lot of issues that just happened to have been raging in American Christianity at the time.

I had a brief membership in the Mormon Church, only to discover, with great horror and distress, what they really believe. The LDS missionaries are very skilled in their presentations, and they avoid the controversial doctrines, which many converts never learn, until they are baptized into the Mormon church.

So, it is out of concern for you, that I have provided the LDS quotes. I don’t want you or anyone else to be deceived about the Mormon religion.

Fair enough–thank you for your concern.

I rejoice in your acceptance of Christ. I’m sorry I wasn’t clear about this in my posts.

Anna, I greatly appreciate your clarifying this–sorry that I misread your post!

 

[sablouwho]

Oh yeah, I get this. I came Home from atheism. It is why for so long, months, even after my baptism, I prayed a lot for Jesus to keep me with Him. Only because I know myself. I was convinced for a long time that I had a retarded soul. Seriously though, I wondered.

LOL re: having a retarded soul.

Did you not ever have any faith in Jesus even though you were raised LDS? (I ask that carefully–I realize that many mainstream Christians question LDS faith in Jesus.)

No, thank you. I know so little about Judaism and I LOVE hearing about it, especially how it relates to our Catholic faith. I hope you post more about this aspect of your journey.

I suppose that I will, as it comes up. Stay tuned, I guess! That all said, I wasn’t exactly a pious Jew. I was rebellious in Hebrew school (even though I was a good kid in regular school) because I was so marinated in cynical, intellectually elite atheism at home, that I really had a chip on my shoulder in religious school. I thought my teachers were utter idiots for believing in God.

About month or so ago I was at a Jewish Temple, for work purposes (long story). A bunch of us walked in and the Rabbi asked, “Are you here for Bible worship?” LOL!

I guess he must have thought you were Protestants?! (Sorry, couldn’t help it!)

 

[Anna_Scott]

Ah, okay, I am So relieved. Thank you for the clarification. I apologize for my reaction–I obviously did not understand what you meant and misconstrued your meaning.

Indeed, the BoM does have some pretty strong language against other churches. One of the difficulties I have with the BoM is how it “miraculously” (or perhaps “conveniently” would be the better term) addresses a lot of issues that just happened to have been raging in American Christianity at the time.

Fair enough–thank you for your concern.

Anna, I greatly appreciate your clarifying this–sorry that I misread your post!

I’m really glad the misunderstanding is cleared up.

You are on a very exciting journey with our Lord.

Anna

 

[RebeccaJ]

LOL re: having a retarded soul.

Did you not ever have any faith in Jesus even though you were raised LDS? (I ask that carefully–I realize that many mainstream Christians question LDS faith in Jesus.)

The way I was raised to know Jesus, I didn’t see Him as God. In my atheism I was really angry with God. Because of my mormon upbringing that anger was only aimed at the mormon idea of “God the Father”. I never had that anger towards Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

You’ll notice LDS here when they say “God”, they mean “Heavenly Father”. When I was growing up we didn’t say “God”, as it was viewed as very disrespectful. We always said “Heavenly Father”. Jesus was never referred to as God. Whereas Christians say “God”, we are referring to the Holy Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Anyway, when I got this curiosity about what Christianity actually taught, I had several points where I came to realize what I had been taught about God, was false. It is why I say, to the annoyance of LDS, that I was raised to know a false god.

So no, I never had faith in Jesus. All faith is given to the Father, as Mormons teach everything that Jesus did was because of and for the Father. For mormons, Jesus testified a truth, a long time ago. There is no understanding that He is the perfect revealed truth, and there is no other. They keep looking for something to be added on.

I suppose that I will, as it comes up. Stay tuned, I guess! That all said, I wasn’t exactly a pious Jew. I was rebellious in Hebrew school (even though I was a good kid in regular school) because I was so marinated in cynical, intellectually elite atheism at home, that I really had a chip on my shoulder in religious school. I thought my teachers were utter idiots for believing in God.

I raised my daughter as an atheist. I didn’t really discuss God with her, one way or the other. Now she says she is agnostic.

I guess he must have thought you were Protestants?! (Sorry, couldn’t help it!)

The Rabbi is always joking around. The funny thing is that some of the people I was with thought he was serious. It still cracks me up…Bible study at the Jewish Temple.

Though, it got me to thinking I wouldn’t mind showing up to study the Torah.

 

[sablouwho]

You’ll notice LDS here when they say “God”, they mean “Heavenly Father”.

Yes, I’ve noticed that myself. I guess I had thought it was a stylistic/cultural difference.

When I was growing up we didn’t say “God”, as it was viewed as very disrespectful. We always said “Heavenly Father”. Jesus was never referred to as God. Whereas Christians say “God”, we are referring to the Holy Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Ah yeah, I see what you mean. Good distinction. One thing I noticed during my time with LDS was that Jesus was rarely referred to as such. Rather he was often referred to as the “Savior”.

And for all the insistence that it is the Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS, it seemed to me that there was a lot (too much) talk about JS, and not quite enough about JC. All the talk of JS and BY and other LDS leaders was foreign to me. It felt…wrong.

So no, I never had faith in Jesus. All faith is given to the Father, as Mormons teach everything that Jesus did was because of and for the Father. For mormons, Jesus testified a truth, a long time ago. There is no understanding that He is the perfect revealed truth, and there is no other. They keep looking for something to be added on.

Hmmm…I am digesting this. It brings up a lot of questions for me.

What are they looking to add on, in your opinion? Do you mean things like the WoW and the additional laws that they follow?

Personally I gotta say that, having discovered Christ was the real deal, I was relieved I didn’t have to live a very proscribed Jewish life (which I knew I was risking having to do when I asked God “please show me the truth about you and I will follow it, whatever you show me”.

So when I saw that the LDS had the law of this and the law of that, I felt like I was being shoved back into a situation where everything I disliked about Judaism but had been able to put aside because of Christ (praise God!), was rearing its ugly head again. And I was like “Nooooooooooo…”

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD,

Do you accept this statement by Mormon Prophet Woodruff?

4th President and Prophet of the Mormon Church, Wilford Woodruff (Served 1887–1898):
“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” ( The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, sel. G. Homer Durham [1946], 212–13.)

Thank you,
Anna

Hi, Anna,
Not perhaps in the way you may think. I’ve written before about “checks and balances” and about how God knows the future and knows men’s hearts. He would “remove” by the fact that death is one of the things He ultimately brings to humankind according to His timetable, not theirs, so the President of the LDS church has been allowed to live to the point of seniority in the Quorum of the Twelve, and God knows his heart fully and without question as to what he will do, plus the Quorum of the Twelve is a counseling body to assist with having a perspective that is not one-sided. Wilford Woodruff made that specific statement when the withdrawal of plural marriage was being presented to the LDS members as the will of God for them.

 

[Javl]

Not ALL Catholics and not ALL protestants:thumbsup: Maybe in general and those who believe it is not a cult are few and far between (compared to the Catholic and protestant churches as a whole) but you must always use caution when you claim a group to have ALL members believing a single idea
Annie

I do not mean to be insulting or derogatory. If I came across as such, I apologize. But, regardless of what individual Catholics or Protestants may say or think, Mormonism does come under the religious definition of a cult.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, I’ve noticed that myself. I guess I had thought it was a stylistic/cultural difference.

Ah yeah, I see what you mean. Good distinction. One thing I noticed during my time with LDS was that Jesus was rarely referred to as such. Rather he was often referred to as the “Savior”.

True. Or “Christ”. They rarely call on His name and say “Jesus”. I don’t know why. These things stick. It took me the longest time to say “Jesus”. No other reason than it was how I was raised.

And for all the insistence that it is the Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS, it seemed to me that there was a lot (too much) talk about JS, and not quite enough about JC. All the talk of JS and BY and other LDS leaders was foreign to me. It felt…wrong.

More than a few people notice this. It is a complaint I see among LDS most often around Christmas and Easter.

Hmmm…I am digesting this. It brings up a lot of questions for me.

Feel free to PM me, or ask the whole bunch of us. Maybe in the apologetic or evangelization forum.

What are they looking to add on, in your opinion? Do you mean things like the WoW and the additional laws that they follow?

They just seem to want for more. Yeah, it seems to bring them comfort to follow additional “stuff”. The same can be found in Catholicism, an example are our devotions. The difference is that people are drawn to certain devotions. They aren’t required. There is room to let the Holy Spirit guide you, rather than, another person telling you. (Devotions are also Christ-centered. ie, abstaining from certain foods is a personal sacrifice, and penitential. Where the LDS WoW is focused on obedience.)

Personally I gotta say that, having discovered Christ was the real deal, I was relieved I didn’t have to live a very proscribed Jewish life (which I knew I was risking having to do when I asked God “please show me the truth about you and I will follow it, whatever you show me”.

So when I saw that the LDS had the law of this and the law of that, I felt like I was being shoved back into a situation where everything I disliked about Judaism but had been able to put aside because of Christ (praise God!), was rearing its ugly head again. And I was like “Nooooooooooo…”

I don’t see an understanding in mormonism that Jesus Christ is the New Covenant and fulfills the Old. HE is the New and Everlasting Covenant. LDS call their temple marriages the “new and everlasting covenant”. When they were practicing polygamy they called plural marriage the “new and everlasting covenant”.

There is a constant tendency towards going back, which they see as “restoring”. It contradicts the understanding that the law has been fulfilled, therefore, there is no need (or desire) to go back.

I think the greatest indication of this is our understanding of Jesus Christ has restored all things. We understand it as restoring us to God’s Kingdom, necessicated by the Fall. The event of this restoration is Jesus Christ. For LDS the event of restoring all things is 1830 Joseph Smith.

 

[SteveVH]

Wilford Woodruff made that specific statement when the withdrawal of plural marriage was being presented to the LDS members as the will of God for them.

Does it seem strange to anyone else that “the will of God” in the LDS tradition often seems to be revealed just as they are being accused of breaking some human law, such as polygamy or racial prejudice? It’s almost as if God is waiting on man in order to decide what He should reveal next, or, which of the truths already revealed should now become false.

 

[sablouwho]

I do not mean to be insulting or derogatory. If I came across as such, I apologize. But, regardless of what individual Catholics or Protestants may say or think, Mormonism does come under the religious definition of a cult.

I agree with the other posters who have cautioned you on the use of this term. No good can come of this.

Depending on what religious definition you use, the early Christians were also a cult!

 

[Anna_Scott]

I do not mean to be insulting or derogatory. If I came across as such, I apologize. But, regardless of what individual Catholics or Protestants may say or think, Mormonism does come under the religious definition of a cult.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I agree with the other posters who have cautioned you on the use of this term. No good can come of this.

Depending on what religious definition you use, the early Christians were also a cult!

When I was taking lessons with the LDS missionaries and the LDS Bishop, who was a good friend; the Bishop mentioned how Mormonism is called a cult.

Instead of refuting the idea, he asked, rhetorically, “Is being a cult a bad thing?” I didn’t know what to say at that time; but it did seem strange.

Just something to consider.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Does it seem strange to anyone else that “the will of God” in the LDS tradition often seems to be revealed just as they are being accused of breaking some human law, such as polygamy or racial prejudice? It’s almost as if God is waiting on man in order to decide what He should reveal next, or, which of the truths already revealed should now become false.

Astute observation. Just as Mormon Prophets are not speaking as Prophets, when they claim God revealed something to them, that is later seen as controversial.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

ParkerD,

Do you accept this statement by Mormon Prophet Woodruff?

4th President and Prophet of the Mormon Church, Wilford Woodruff (Served 1887–1898):
“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” ( The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, sel. G. Homer Durham [1946], 212–13.)

Thank you,
Anna

Hi, Anna,
Not perhaps in the way you may think. I’ve written before about “checks and balances” and about how God knows the future and knows men’s hearts. He would “remove” by the fact that death is one of the things He ultimately brings to humankind according to His timetable, not theirs, so the President of the LDS church has been allowed to live to the point of seniority in the Quorum of the Twelve, and God knows his heart fully and without question as to what he will do, plus the Quorum of the Twelve is a counseling body to assist with having a perspective that is not one-sided. Wilford Woodruff made that specific statement when the withdrawal of plural marriage was being presented to the LDS members as the will of God for them.

Parker,
This is rather evasive, including an assumption that you know what I think. You didn’t exactly answer the question.

I “think” it is reasonable to ask for a yes or no answer to the question, “Do you accept this statement by Mormon Prophet Woodruff?”

Anna

 

[sablouwho]

True. Or “Christ”. They rarely call on His name and say “Jesus”. I don’t know why. These things stick. It took me the longest time to say “Jesus”. No other reason than it was how I was raised.

Me too! LOL! But then, I was actually kinda afraid of JC. His name made me seasick. Sometimes I still have trouble with this. I think it will get better with time.

More than a few people notice this. It is a complaint I see among LDS most often around Christmas and Easter.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,
This is rather evasive, including an assumption that you know what I think. You didn’t exactly answer the question.

I “think” it is reasonable to ask for a yes or no answer to the question, “Do you accept this statement by Mormon Prophet Woodruff?”

Anna

Anna,
Yes.

I think a yes or no answer to a deep question requires context, which I tried to provide to you.

Yes–unhesitatingly, yes.