Lead us not into temptation...Greek Translation

[JamalChristophr]

I’ve been kind of a slacker this afternoon thought wise, but I did notice just in this one paragraph in the catechism.

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It is difficult to translate the Greek verb used by a single English word: the Greek means both “do not allow us to enter into temptation” and "do not let us yield to temptation."150 “God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one”;151 on the contrary, he wants to set us free from evil. We ask him not to allow us to take the way that leads to sin.

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I think that if any other Pope wanted to do this it would be no issue at all.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The Greek is clear with its wording: do not lead/bring us into temptation/testing/trial.

As a reader of ancient Greek, let me echo this. There is absolutely no ambiguity in the Greek phrase. To translate it as “keep us from temptation” is a poor reading of the Greek.

 

[BartholomewB]

I think that if any other Pope wanted to do this it would be no issue at all.

That’s an interesting idea. If it had been Benedict XVI …

Have we been told what Cardinal Sarah thinks of it? I haven’t seen his name mentioned in this connection. Have you?

 

[FrDavid96]

…
And we can argue Aramaic till we’re verde in the face, but ultimately, the inspired text of the Gospel of Matthew (yes, Matthew!) is the Greek and that word is what holds authority for us. That includes the Pope.

And yet that dismisses the fact that Christ Himself most likely gave the prayer in Aramaic and even the Gospel of Matthew is already a translation of His actual words.

 

[porthos11]

porthos11:

…
And we can argue Aramaic till we’re verde in the face, but ultimately, the inspired text of the Gospel of Matthew (yes, Matthew!) is the Greek and that word is what holds authority for us. That includes the Pope.

And yet that dismisses the fact that Christ Himself most likely gave the prayer in Aramaic and even the Gospel of Matthew is already a translation of His actual words.

We have no canonical Aramaic text. The Greek is authoritative.

 

[Teek]

Jesus never spoke the words “lead us not into temptation”.

Jesus said, in Greek “ΚΑΙ ΜΗ ΕΙΣΕΝΕΓΚΗΣ ΗΜΑΣ ΕΙΣ ΠΕΙΡΑΣΜΟΝ”

Which most likely was said in Aramaic “וְאַל-תְּבִיאֵנוּ לִידֵי מַסָּה כִי אִם-הַצִילֵנוּ מִן-הָרָע:”

People keep saying this. What it even mean? Specifically what are you implying by saying this?

Jesus also did not say “This is my body.” But he most certainly said “This is my body.” !!!

If we use that reasoning we can change whatever we want and NO ONE who loves the Word wants that.

Does the language make the truth of what he said irrelevant? Maybe if the translation is ambiguous. However, no one disputes that the accurate translation into English is “Lead us not into temptation.” That translation is consistent with sacred scripture.

I am upset and concerned over the people in the Church who refuse to humbly submit to the Holy Father when he exercises his lawful authority.

I have not done this AT ALL.

The Pope said, “That is a bad translation.” He prefers different wording.

It is not a bad translation. Different wording, therefore, changes Christ’s words.

Are we required to humbly submit to every thing the Holy Father says?

What if he were to say that Mary called God a liar?

What if he were to say that Jesus sinned?

Could I not disagree with these statements? Would I not have the duty to defend Truth, no matter who said these things?

I cannot, and should not “humbly submit” to things that are said that are contrary to the faith.

We are loyal to Pope Francis because he serves the Holy Church in her mission to be faithful to God.

Regardless of what is happening here, whether you think it fits the following statement or not, is the following statement true:

“The Pope has the authority to change the wording of the Bible.”

 

[Teek]

Do not forget that the language of the Church is not French or English. It’s Latin. The Latin is the same as always.

Yes. And the Latin informs the communal, worldwide nature of the Eucharistic prayer. It is the guiding rule so that we do not stray away from unity. We pray together. The Latin is also “Lead us not into temptation,” when translated into English. No ambiguity. Even in the vernacular, we are to stay conformed to the Liturgical norms.

 

[Teek]

more troubling then the Holy Father updating the translation of a single sentence in a single prayer of a single liturgical text.

It’s not not updating the translation. It is changing the words of Jesus Christ, the words He said to use when we pray.

Luke 11:1-2
He was praying in a certain place, and when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” And he said to them, "When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come. …and lead us not into temptation.”

 

[Spyridon]

You’re just not getting it @Teek

There are multiple ways to translate the underlying Greek into English.

Lead us not into temptation is but one option among many.

 

[Teek]

The Gospels were not written in English. Christ never gave us the Our Father in English. It’s always a translation.

The Church translates texts. This is just one of them. Everything gets translated.

Even the texts you quoted were translated from the ancient languages (note the plural).

Thank you, Father. Can you help me go deeper, because everything you said is true. They are translations of ancient languages. If this makes what was said flexible and ambivalent and changeable, that means that we can have zero certainty about what Jesus said. I cannot believe that.

There were 25 versions of the Bible in English in some link I posted above. 17 said “do not lead us,” 6 said “do not bring us,” one said “do not yield us”, one said “do not abandon us.” 23/25 were true to one interpretation. Lead/bring.

That is a ridiculous amount of conformity for the varied translations. Because of how clear the translation is.

This translation is accurate. The proposed versions are less accurate, less true, and not what Jesus said. Is that the goal of the Church in translating texts?

 

[Teek]

And yet that dismisses the fact that Christ Himself most likely gave the prayer in Aramaic and even the Gospel of Matthew is already a translation of His actual words.

So we just can’t know. Because of other languages. Maybe when Jesus said “Unless you eat my flesh,” we can’t count on the Greek meaning that is more to “gnaw” to inform our understanding, or even know that he said or meant eat.

Do we not believe that the Holy Spirit is actively guiding us to all Truth, safely guarded by the Church, and for the +/- 2000 years that the Church used the words that mean “lead us not into temptation,” they were not wrong?

 

[Teek]

That’s an interesting idea. If it had been Benedict XVI …

He has a beautiful commentary on this in his book, Jesus of Nazareth. I posted it here and it was taken down. It linked the Old and New Testament accounts and taught how to understand it. It helps you pray the Lord’s Prayer more deeply and richly.

He used the words “lead us not into temptation” and he let that inform his interpretation of the related events, rather than letting his own interpretation change what he thought Jesus said.

 

[Teek]

You’re just not getting it @Teek

No I am not. Or maybe I am and you are not. Either way, we disagree.

There are multiple ways to translate the underlying Greek into English.

Lead us not into temptation is but one option among many.

Prove it. I have put quotes that affirm the very clear meaning of the Greek words. I cannot find anyone, except Pope Francis, who calls it a bad translation.

He is important, or I would have just ignored him. Instead I have investigated TRYING to be able to defend him. I cannot.

 

[Spyridon]

What are you talking about prove it?

How many different Catholic Bible translations have you used?

Matthew 6:13 is translated in a multitude of ways - compare the Jerusalem Bible with the New Jerusalem Bible, compare the RSV-CE with the NRSV and compare the NABRE with the DR.

Compare the NABRE “And do not subject us to the final test,
but deliver us from the evil one.”

With the NRSV-CE “And do not bring us to the time of trial,
but rescue us from the evil one.”

Compared to the DR “And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.”

I think the Pope and the scholars he consulted, as well as the Greek scholars behind the NABRE and the NRSV may be just a LITTLE more knowledgeable of Greek than people on the CA forums…

 

[Prodigal_Son]

There are multiple ways to translate the underlying Greek into English.

Yes, there are. They are things like:

“Do not bring us into temptation”
“Do not lead us into trials”
“Do not bring us into the test”
“Do not lead us to the trial”

Etc.

But not “do not let us fall into temptation”. That is nowhere at all in the Greek. It would be like translating “En arche ho logos” as “in the beginning was the faith”, as opposed to “in the beginning was word”. It imports a completely new concept – the passive concept of falling.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Compare the NABRE “And do not subject us to the final test,

but deliver us from the evil one.”

With the NRSV-CE “And do not bring us to the time of trial,

but rescue us from the evil one.”

Compared to the DR “And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.”

The first translation is suspect, to me, since the notion of “subjecting” is not in the relevant Greek verb. The other two translations are great.

 

[Teek]

1.Compare the NABRE “And do not subject us to the final test,

but deliver us from the evil one.”

2.With the NRSV-CE “And do not bring us to the time of trial,

but rescue us from the evil one.”

3.Compared to the DR “And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.”

1. Bad translation.
2. Good translation.
3. Good translation.

Even though 1. is not an accurate translation, to say “do not subject us to the test” and “lead us not into temptation” have the same element that is being objected to by Pope Francis: namely that God would take us into temptation…bring us, lead us, make us subject to…it isn’t the more commonly rendered wording, but it doesn’t add as different a meaning as does the “let us fall into” kind of translation.

So all three have the meaning Pope Francis objects to.

 

[Teek]

I think the Pope and the scholars he consulted, as well as the Greek scholars behind the NABRE and the NRSV may be just a LITTLE more knowledgeable of Greek than people on the CA forums…

You haven’t replied to the argument.

The Greek scholars behind those translations translated it into the phrasing that Pope Francis is objecting to.

 

[Spyridon]

I’m starting to think the Pope haters are just objecting for the sake of objecting to the Pope.

“And let us not enter into temptation” means exactly the same thing as “and lead us not into temptation”.

It’s mere semantics.

I’m done here.

I will do what all good Catholics should do - trustingly and humbly submit to the lawful authority of the Holy Father.

I suggest you all do the same, lest you want to answer to God why you continously rebelled against the Vicar of Christ on Earth.

Honestly, the people who fight the Pope tooth and nail over things like this are, IMO, just as willful and insubordinate as the SSPX. It’s shameful to see Catholics so utterly defiant and unruly towards the Supreme Pontiff. The people who dog on the Protestants the most apparently can’t see the hypocrisy in acting like Protestants by protesting every decision the Holy Father makes.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

“And let us not enter into temptation” means exactly the same thing as “and lead us not into temptation”.

No, it doesn’t. Leading is an activity of God, in context, and entering is an activity of us.

I will do what all good Catholics should do - trustingly and humbly submit to the lawful authority of the Holy Father.

I, for one, have not said the slightest word against the Holy Father. I am qualified to speak on Greek, not on ecclesiastical decisions. If we say something in the Mass that is not verbatim from the Bible, I’m fine with that. We do it in other cases (e.g. “Only say the word and my soul shall be healed”.).