Lehi the prophet, was he faithless? Can Mormons save him?

[mikehord]

Took the weekend off folks. Probably have 10 posts to reply to and im on my iphone so be patient as I try to respond to all of you.

A crystal ball, looking glass or peep stone?
I fail to see how this explains the urim and thummin being used to translate an entire book.
Perhaps if there were another author who could be cited as doing the same thing and or such a device could be shown to exist today as an actual working device.

The modern urim and thummim will likely take form as google glass.
The urim and thimmim has been portrayed as a pair of stones set in a bow like a pair of glasses but the stones are not clear crystal lenses. We dont really know what they look like and nobody is telling us. A modern device that would sit on top of a word or symbol and then display the meaning of that word or symbol doesnt seem to be too distant from google glass. What a handy tool it would be. No more stopping to look up a word, just slap the stone on the word you want looked up.

If this happens you hears it here first. If you arent convinced, im ok with it.

 

[mikehord]

Then why don’t you answer the questions in Tarquin’s initial post? You never actually addressed the questions in the initial post.

We didn’t bring up Joseph Smith and his death. You did in post #20. You opened the kitchen door and walked right on in and now you are complaining about the heat. We are speaking the truth about Joseph Smith. Sometimes the truth hurts.

To help you out, here is the original post.

Moses didnt need a liahona, he had the cloud to follow.

Also there were 2 other expeditions to the americas that did not require a liahona.
The liahona serves the purpose of guiding lehi and leaving a record of a miraculous device for us to recognize in the latter days.

Im not complaining about the heat i simply want to stay on point and out of a mud slining contest about every bad thing someone can sling about the other.

 

[mikehord]

Mr. Hord,

In your first post on this thread (#13), you made the following assertion.

This is a pretty bold assertion, and the onus is on **you **to back up this assertion. Show us evidence that the Liahona was a digital compass and GPS style navigation system, complete with the capability to text message with supernatural beings.

Then you demanded evidence of navigational devices prior to 1830. When a picture of an astrolabe was posted, you dismissed it without providing any reasons for doing so.

The Liahona also provided messages from a supernational being, and you demanded proof of “text messaging” devices prior to 1830. I also noted that people have been using crystals, bones, animal entrails, etc to receive messages from supernatural beings for thousands of years. Whether any of these objects actually reveal messages from supernatural beings is debatable, but the use of these objects for such a purpose was well known to Joseph Smith. You dismiss the idea of a peep stone, but it was through a stone Joseph Smith found at the bottom of a neighbor’s well that he supposedly translated the Book of Mormon.

Now to the three-ring binder. The mythical golden plates were not even inside a three-ring binder. There was no cover. The plates were simply bound together with three rings, in much the same way Coptic Christians bound papyrus with leather. So how the mythical golden plates were bound really wasn’t quite the innovation as you seem to think it is.

I have read these verses hundreds of times, even after the iphone was released and never once did I think that the Liahona was a spherical iphone. The Liahona is described as follows in verse 10, “a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one pointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.” Sounds more like a cross between a compass, astrolabe and crystal ball.

Now in an effort to bring the thread back to Tarquin’s original question, can you, Mr. Hord, explain why Heavenly Father went from revealing his will to Lehi via dreams and visions to an object? Why did Heavenly Father go from a spiritual method of communication to a physical one? Is there a parallel in the Old Testament or New Testament?

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Im trying to get a clip art pic of the Liahona on google images that may help you see what this device looked like. Look for mikehord on google plus. Compare the images you see to the vss in 1 Nephi 16:10-30. It is much simpler than the mechanical ones you will see posted.

 

[TexanKnight]

Took the weekend off folks. Probably have 10 posts to reply to and im on my iphone so be patient as I try to respond to all of you.

A crystal ball, looking glass or peep stone?
I fail to see how this explains the urim and thummin being used to translate an entire book.

It wasn’t. Actually, the “peep stone” was a stone js stole from a farmer that he originally used for the illegal practice of treasure hunting.

The modern urim and thummim will likely take form as google glass.

Why would you say that? Such wild speculation is not relevant

 

[mikehord]

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Im trying to get a clip art pic of the Liahona on google images that may help you see what this device looked like. Look for mikehord on google plus. Compare the images you see to the vss in 1 Nephi 16:10-30. It is much simpler than the mechanical ones you will see posted.

I never used the term super natural being. The passage conrcerning the ball clearly show God telling Lehi to look upon the ball. The instructions are coming fro
Him.

 

[TexanKnight]

Moses didnt need a liahona, he had the cloud to follow.

Also there were 2 other expeditions to the americas that did not require a liahona.
The liahona serves the purpose of guiding lehi and leaving a record of a miraculous device for us to recognize in the latter days.

Im not complaining about the heat i simply want to stay on point and out of a mud slining contest about every bad thing someone can sling about the other.

Telling the truth about js is not mudslinging. It is truth. The fact he was a convicted conman, womanizer and false prophet is very well documented.

 

[mikehord]

Telling the truth about js is not mudslinging. It is truth. The fact he was a convicted conman, womanizer and false prophet is very well documented.

Much documentation is unreliable. I have yet to see anti mormon sources use actual court documentation. This type of information is what should be used but is not. You can find all kinds of statement made about smith. The fact that they are so contradictory to each other or even more often used as source material erodes their credibility.

I do not use anti catholic information to attack catholics or other churches or other religions.
Prophets were often jailed or killed on false charges.
Prophets are also not perfect, they are men and do make mistakes. Moses and joshua both did.

Lets stay on point.

The liahona. Please see mikehord at google plus, compare the image to the passages in 1 Nephi 16:10;16-30

 

[TexanKnight]

Much documentation is unreliable. I have yet to see anti mormon sources use actual court documentation. This type of information is what should be used but is not. You can find all kinds of statement made about smith. The fact that they are so contradictory to each other or even more often used as source material erodes their credibility.

Then you have not researched. I have posted nothing that was untrue. Funny thing…the stuff you post in support of js is actually MORE unreliable…yet you blindly accept it.

But, tell you what, let us have a go. Tell me what you think you think, of what I have posted, needs more reliability, and I will do the same and let us see where we end up…deal?

I do not use anti catholic information to attack catholics or other churches or other religions.

And I have not used anti-Mormon stuff. I have used truth.

Prophets were often jailed or killed on false charges.

And what instances of jailing regarding js do you claim were under false charges? Please be specific…we will see

Prophets are also not perfect, they are men and do make mistakes. Moses and joshua both did.

lol…I love it when that comparison is used. Tell you what…explain, in detail, anything Moses did that would compare to using a stolen rock to look for buried treasure. Show me anything Joshua did to compare to js asking William Law to wife swap. Tell me anything Moses did to compare with js’ adultry, or bank scandal, or destroying the press he did not like, or illegally carrying a gun in jail, or blindly firing a gun into a mob, or trying to run away and leave his friends to face the mob alone. Please…be specific…

Lets stay on point.

I am. I respond to whatever type. I can;t wait for your answers.

 

[TexanKnight]

Prophets are also not perfect, they are men and do make mistakes. Moses and joshua both did.

it is one thing to make mistakes. It is totally another to be an egomaniac to believes he is above the law and does whatever he wants using God as weapon to get people to do what he wants.

 

[mikehord]

TexanKnight:
I am not interested in being distracted by what you think are facts. I have personally investigated many of the things that you think are facts.

My intention here is to show you all the Liahona.
Hear me now, believe me later ( in my best shawzenger voice).
All I want to show is that the Liahona would not have been recognized 15 or even 10 years ago as the type of device we would recognize today. A GPS style navigator with mobile text messages.

I realize that this isnt proof but it is evidence.
What if the Liahona is supposed to be the sign for you and others to see?
If it is what it looks like it very well could be a sign that we have crossed a threshold towards the final days. If not then its just a curious thing to have been written about in an odd period of time to be written of.

 

[TexanKnight]

I am not interested in being distracted by what you think are facts. I have personally investigated many of the things that you think are facts.

Nice dodge. I offered a challenge…you are too afraid to engage. You make comments you cannot back up. I understand completely why you are afraid of the challenge.

No, you have not investigated.

 

[mikehord]

TexanKnight:
Im not interested in debating things that I have already done 10 years ago.
Its a waste of time and your purpose is to muddy the water and distract from the real issue and im not falling for it. Let someone else in another forum or thread debate those things if they want.

The Boof of Mormon states that its purpose is to convince the Jew and Gentile of Christ clearly on page one. The cover of the book states that it is another testament of Christ.
Why would a christian fight so hard against something that could be so useful in convincing non believers? I believe you may love your traditions more than finding the truth. If you dont believe the Book of Mormon, you should state your issues with it rather than attacking the author.

 

[TexanKnight]

Im not interested in debating things that I have already done 10 years ago.
Its a waste of time and your purpose is to muddy the water and distract from the real issue and im not falling for it. Let someone else in another forum or thread debate those things if they want.

The Boof of Mormon states that its purpose is to convince the Jew and Gentile of Christ clearly on page one. The cover of the book states that it is another testament of Christ.
Why would a christian fight so hard against something that could be so useful in convincing non believers? I believe you may love your traditions more than finding the truth. If you dont believe the Book of Mormon, you should state your issues with it rather than attacking the author.

You come here, make comments, then will not debate them because you claim to have debated them 10 years ago?

Very odd.

But I truly understand why you do not wish to do so here. I would also be afraid if I were in your shoes.

 

[mikehord]

You come here, make comments, then will not debate them because you claim to have debated them 10 years ago?

Very odd.

But I truly understand why you do not wish to do so here. I would also be afraid if I were in your shoes.

The title of the conversation is Lehi the faithless prophet etc etc.
Lehi abandonned his home and property to go somewhere undisclosed. Thts not faithless. He was given the Liahona to find his way. The ball worked from faith in it.
If you want to discuss something else then find a forum for that.
The Liahona is evidence protruding from a time period that such a device that does not belong in that time period.
I suggest that its purpose was to guide Lehi and us living today because the book states that its purpose is to convince those living in the latter days.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I think Mike is troll

No just a silly fan-boy with goofy ideas. the Liahona was an iphone, and chariots were cars, armor was a robo-cop suit. Then showing clip art like it was a rendition of an actual object, worthy of serious consideration, instead of the product of JS’s imagination that it actually is.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Im not interested in debating things that I have already done 10 years ago.
Its a waste of time and your purpose is to muddy the water and distract from the real issue and im not falling for it. Let someone else in another forum or thread debate those things if they want.

The Boof of Mormon states that its purpose is to convince the Jew and Gentile of Christ clearly on page one. The cover of the book states that it is another testament of Christ.
Why would a christian fight so hard against something that could be so useful in convincing non believers? I believe you may love your traditions more than finding the truth. If you dont believe the Book of Mormon, you should state your issues with it rather than attacking the author.

Since there is no physical evidence of any of the BoM places or people, the only thing we can base an opinion of veracity on is the character of the those involved with it’s production. So the authors, character and actions are going to come under scrutiny:shrug:

 

[TexanKnight]

The title of the conversation is Lehi the faithless prophet etc etc.
Lehi abandonned his home and property to go somewhere undisclosed. Thts not faithless. He was given the Liahona to find his way. The ball worked from faith in it.
If you want to discuss something else then find a forum for that.
The Liahona is evidence protruding from a time period that such a device that does not belong in that time period.
I suggest that its purpose was to guide Lehi and us living today because the book states that its purpose is to convince those living in the latter days.

You come here, make comments, then will not debate them because you claim to have debated them 10 years ago?

Very odd.

But I truly understand why you do not wish to do so here. I would also be afraid if I were in your shoes.

 

[mikehord]

No just a silly fan-boy with goofy ideas. the Liahona was an iphone, and chariots were cars, armor was a robo-cop suit. Then showing clip art like it was a rendition of an actual object, worthy of serious consideration, instead of the product of JS’s imagination that it actually is.

Chariots were cars and robo cop suits? Where did that come from.
If you wish to challenge my clip art, tell me which vss doesnt support the elements.
I have been unable to locate any description of the Liahona by Joseph Smith. Some say the device was with the plates but I doubt it when you see the difficulty he has describing the device in verses 28-29. It could have been that he never saw the device and is only describing it as well as the translator can help him.

The pointers were in the ball. The writing that was changed from time to time and plain to be read was near the pointers. Read the verses and compare my picture with any of those on google. The ones on google have a spindle running through it which was not mentioned. Feet that arent mentioned. Almost none of them show any writing.
The Liahona has been waiting for over 180 years to be seen.

 

[TexanKnight]

Chariots were cars and robo cop suits? Where did that come from.
If you wish to challenge my clip art, tell me which vss doesnt support the elements.
I have been unable to locate any description of the Liahona by Joseph Smith. Some say the device was with the plates but I doubt it when you see the difficulty he has describing the device in verses 28-29. It could have been that he never saw the device and is only describing it as well as the translator can help him.

The pointers were in the ball. The writing that was changed from time to time and plain to be read was near the pointers. Read the verses and compare my picture with any of those on google. The ones on google have a spindle running through it which was not mentioned. Feet that arent mentioned. Almost none of them show any writing.
The Liahona has been waiting for over 180 years to be seen.

lol…yes…just like everything else js said. Where is Zerehemla? Where is Bountiful? Why not excavate Cumorah? Why didn’t the world end in the 1800s like js said? Why were there no men dressed like quakers on the moon like js said?

Fanciful clip art with no basis in fact that you use to try to prove a point does not wash here

 

[zaffiroborant]

Chariots were cars and robo cop suits? Where did that come from.

Imagination same as your Liahona

If you wish to challenge my clip art, tell me which vss doesnt support the elements.
I have been unable to locate any description of the Liahona by Joseph Smith. Some say the device was with the plates but I doubt it when you see the difficulty he has describing the device in verses 28-29. It could have been that he never saw the device and is only describing it as well as the translator can help him.

The pointers were in the ball. The writing that was changed from time to time and plain to be read was near the pointers. Read the verses and compare my picture with any of those on google. The ones on google have a spindle running through it which was not mentioned. Feet that arent mentioned. Almost none of them show any writing.
The Liahona has been waiting for over 180 years to be seen.

Why are we supposed to by impressed by your reading a description and then drawing a picture to match it?? If I read a description of a minotaur and then draw an accurate picture of the description is the minotaur now real?