Little sister just told me she's a lesbian

[Prodigal_Son]

If she is 16 and we are speaking of the spiritual and physical well being of the person, then YES, the parents do have a right to know.

If this girl was starving and confided with you, would you not think the parents should be informed? Why is it different when her spiritual well being is on the line?

You are making a utilitarian argument, which means that you are trying to weigh the advantages of speaking to the parents against the disadvantages. The advantage is, apparently, a benefit to her eternal soul.

But trust me, God will give her every opportunity to repent. Our role is to keep our promises, and to maintain confidences. It has to be a VERY extreme situation to violate a confidence. Priests hear confessions all the time. If a priest hears a confession that a man is continually sexually abusing his children, he is not permitted to do anything. Part of the reason is this: If the man had thought he could be informed upon, he would have said nothing, and he would have not been able to receive the grace of the sacrament - a grace that could soften his heart.

In this case, a young girl said something that she would not have said if she knew her brother would break her confidence. To break confidence in such a situation is a serious breach.

We are not in charge of other people’s eternal souls. God is. We need to follow the moral rules, to help each other when possible, and to walk humbly with God.

 

[Lasting_faith]

If you can’t cure the disease treat the symptoms.

 

[Eufrosnia]

You are making a utilitarian argument, which means that you are trying to weigh the advantages of speaking to the parents against the disadvantages. The advantage is, apparently, a benefit to her eternal soul.

But trust me, God will give her every opportunity to repent. Our role is to keep our promises, and to maintain confidences. It has to be a VERY extreme situation to violate a confidence. Priests hear confessions all the time. If a priest hears a confession that a man is continually sexually abusing his children, he is not permitted to do anything. Part of the reason is this: If the man had thought he could be informed upon, he would have said nothing, and he would have not been able to receive the grace of the sacrament - a grace that could soften his heart.

I think you are a bit confused.

Lets start with the issue of confession first. If a person is abusing children, the priest can say that he will not be forgiven unless he stops doing it. So this helplessness you propose is rather weird. Other than that, yes, the priest cannot do anything because he is persona christi during the sacrament. So he is not the one being told the sins.

As for things between us human beings, this does not apply. Just by the fact that someone told us something does not make us binding to keep it secret when that can be to the detriment of the person.

In this case, a young girl said something that she would not have said if she knew her brother would break her confidence. To break confidence in such a situation is a serious breach.

No it is not. There is no indication that there was even a promise on the part of the brother.

We are not in charge of other people’s eternal souls. God is. We need to follow the moral rules, to help each other when possible, and to walk humbly with God.

We are our brothers keeper. God works through us. Telling the parents violates no moral precept and is in-fact the morally obligatory action.

 

[josh987654321]

If she is 16 and we are speaking of the spiritual and physical well being of the person, then YES, the parents do have a right to know.

If this girl was starving and confided with you, would you not think the parents should be informed? Why is it different when her spiritual well being is on the line?

Eufrosnia

Very true, if someone confides in us that they are starving, there is no point in keeping that a secret when we have no food to give them in order to relieve their starvation. Infact it wouldn’t be right to do that. The same should be applied to her spiritual health too.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Prodigal_Son]

As for things between us human beings, this does not apply. Just by the fact that someone told us something does not make us binding to keep it secret when that can be to the detriment of the person.

Suppose a woman promises her husband she will not snoop in his phone. Then she comes to believe that her husband is having an affair. Surely the advantages of discovering and exposing the affair might appear (to the woman) to be better for the immortal souls of all parties. And yet, breaking this promise would be a terrible thing. Don’t you agree?

The right decision is not always the decision that is best for everyone.

(Note: there ARE cases where we should break confidences, but they are very extreme cases.)

No it is not. There is no indication that there was even a promise on the part of the brother.

This was obviously said in confidence, even if the confidence was implied.

We are our brothers keeper. God works through us. Telling the parents violates no moral precept and is in-fact the morally obligatory action.

Certainly we are our brother’s keeper. But I have yet to see you give a moral principle that says it is the parent’s right to know such information, much less a principle that says it is the brother’s duty to tell them.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

A caveat to my previous post: As bad as telling her parents would be, she really does need help. I would expend all my brotherly capital, in such a situation, to convince her to seek it.

If she seeks it herself, she will be implicitly agreeing that there is some help needed. If she does not consent to the help she gets, on the other hand, she will feel like she is being manipulated, so that her own concerns and desires are completely ignored. This is how we harden people’s hearts – not a good thing!

(If you think I’m wrong, just go read the coming out stories of gays and lesbians. One after another, they talk about how people disrespected their autonomy, and how this made them more and more dead-set against the faith).

 

[Eufrosnia]

Suppose a woman promises her husband she will not snoop in his phone. Then she comes to believe that her husband is having an affair. Surely the advantages of discovering and exposing the affair might appear (to the woman) to be better for the immortal souls of all parties. And yet, breaking this promise would be a terrible thing. Don’t you agree?

You should keep in mind that we are not to make promises rashly. That too is part of Christian teaching. The wife does have a moral right to know if the husband is teaching. In fact, most confessors ask the husband to “come clean” with their spouse as part of their penance for cheating on the wife.

So in your hypothetical example, you have first created a morally wrong situation to begin with i.e. the spouses making rash promises that are also incompatible with a good marriage. Spouses should be open with everything in their lives with their spouses. This includes phone conversations.

The right decision is not always the decision that is best for everyone.

The right decision is always the best decision. The immediate temporal effects maybe drastic but for the Christian, the well being of the soul is more important than the body.

(Note: there ARE cases where we should break confidences, but they are very extreme cases.)

There is no “confidence” implied in merely stating to another what may seem secretive. In the event that what we say requires action on the part of the person being told, the person is morally right in acting.

This was obviously said in confidence, even if the confidence was implied.

Implied confidence is not binding. Moreover, the eternal well being of the person requires revealing of the matter to certain parties to better help the person.

Certainly we are our brother’s keeper. But I have yet to see you give a moral principle that says it is the parent’s right to know such information, much less a principle that says it is the brother’s duty to tell them.

So are you trying to argue here that Parents have no right to know such information? The Parents have a very special responsibility on both the spiritual and temporal well being of the child. Therefore, it is the obligation of others to notify the parents regarding matters concerning the spiritual and temporal well being of the child.

Neither the state nor you nor I can simply take away the role of parents in their formation and caring of the child’s spiritual and temporal well being (unless in some grave cases). So naturally it is always assumed that the parents must be notified of these matters.

 

[Eufrosnia]

A caveat to my previous post: As bad as telling her parents would be, she really does need help. I would expend all my brotherly capital, in such a situation, to convince her to seek it.

If she seeks it herself, she will be implicitly agreeing that there is some help needed. If she does not consent to the help she gets, on the other hand, she will feel like she is being manipulated, so that her own concerns and desires are completely ignored. This is how we harden people’s hearts – not a good thing!

(If you think I’m wrong, just go read the coming out stories of gays and lesbians. One after another, they talk about how people disrespected their autonomy, and how this made them more and more dead-set against the faith).

As much as your intentions are good, the person is not required to give any credence to your advise. While she has an obligation to obey her parents, she does not have an obligation to obey you. So you cannot even command such authority as you speak with her.

Even in the event she wants to seek help, the parents might even have to sign off on certain treatments. So in the end, the parents must know. So better notify them now than later.

 

[Vincent90]

It all starting adding up, and I don’t know why I was even shocked. Some of her behaviors around peers, and remarks she makes…make it just clear enough when you think about it…my mom and other sister will say a guy is cute, and she’ll just kind of frown, and there are other things that make me go “Why didn’t I see this before?” If my parents are missing it, they’re oblivious…just like me.

 

[Eufrosnia]

It all starting adding up, and I don’t know why I was even shocked. Some of her behaviors around peers, and remarks she makes…make it just clear enough when you think about it…my mom and other sister will say a guy is cute, and she’ll just kind of frown, and there are other things that make me go “Why didn’t I see this before?” If my parents are missing it, they’re oblivious…just like me.

Well, all the more reason for you to tell them.

Our society has an almost in-built divide and conquer strategy. It lends itself to distancing parents from children, one sibling from the other, children from grand parents etc. What we see today are the fruits of it.

In any case, it is better if your parents know the truth. They are the ones who can do something about it.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

So in your hypothetical example, you have first created a morally wrong situation to begin with i.e. the spouses making rash promises that are also incompatible with a good marriage.

There are certainly scenarios where such a promise would make sense. But whatever. I’m not going to debate it until I’m blue in the face.

The right decision is always the best decision.

Yes, but I didn’t deny this. The right decision is not always the decision that is best for everyone. If a patient comes into the doctor for a cold, and the doctor kills that patient in order to save the lives of five people who need immediate organ transplants, the result is the best for the group, as a whole, because more people survive. But the doctor would be acting terribly immorally.

In the event that what we say requires action on the part of the person being told, the person is morally right in acting.

That’s a tautology, so sure, I agree with it.

Implied confidence is not binding. Moreover, the eternal well being of the person requires revealing of the matter to certain parties to better help the person.

So you think that God is going to withdraw help from this girl’s immortal soul if this poor boy doesn’t tell his parents? :ehh:

God doesn’t play like that.

So are you trying to argue here that Parents have no right to know such information?

Can you cite to me some Catholic document that endorses such a right, for the parent of a 16-year-old? 16 is pretty old.

This is information about a temptation, not a sin. Suppose I was 16. Why would my parents have a right to know the ways I am tempted?

While she has an obligation to obey her parents, she does not have an obligation to obey you.

And this is a good thing! Since she can act in freedom, she is not alienated from the situation.

 

[Lamentation]

…What would you do if you were in my situation?

Probably the same thing, but then I’m also the same age as you.

What is there to do but continue to love her as your sister? Don’t think any less of her, and at the same time don’t support her (agree to disagree) on the sinful parts of her life.

Basically, treat her as you should treat any other.

Also, I wouldn’t offer the information to your parents unless they directly ask. She would probably be much more grateful if she “grew out of it”.
As an aside, I have been in a similar situation with my brother (not the same, but a similar “should I tell my parents” situation).

 

[Eufrosnia]

There are certainly scenarios where such a promise would make sense. But whatever. I’m not going to debate it until I’m blue in the face.

When the matter is of importance, people take oaths (Medical profession comes to mind). No one is suppossed to utilize this in normal meetings between people.

Yes, but I didn’t deny this. The right decision is not always the decision that is best for everyone. If a patient comes into the doctor for a cold, and the doctor kills that patient in order to save the lives of five people who need immediate organ transplants, the result is the best for the group, as a whole, because more people survive. But the doctor would be acting terribly immorally.

We have to act in the best interest of the person. That is the only thing that matters in THIS issue. There is no one affected. So I fail to see this “everyone’s best interest” issue here.

That’s a tautology, so sure, I agree with it.

Good. Now in the case of a person’s spiritual well being is in jeopardy, there is a need to act and notify those who are responsible for it i.e. PARENTS.

So you think that God is going to withdraw help from this girl’s immortal soul if this poor boy doesn’t tell his parents? :ehh:

God doesn’t play like that.

God may help her in some other way yes. But the “poor boy” will be held responsible for not doing what he should have done i.e. notify the parents.

Can you cite to me some Catholic document that endorses such a right, for the parent of a 16-year-old? 16 is pretty old.

From the CCC

2221 The fecundity of conjugal love cannot be reduced solely to the procreation of children, but must extend to their moral education and their spiritual formation. "The role of parents in education is of such importance that it is almost impossible to provide an adequate substitute."29 The right and the duty of parents to educate their children are primordial and inalienable.30

2222 Parents must regard their children as children of God and respect them as human persons. Showing themselves obedient to the will of the Father in heaven, they educate their children to fulfill God’s law.
**
2223 Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children**. They bear witness to this responsibility first by creating a home where tenderness, forgiveness, respect, fidelity, and disinterested service are the rule. The home is well suited for education in the virtues. This requires an apprenticeship in self-denial, sound judgment, and self-mastery - the preconditions of all true freedom. Parents should teach their children to subordinate the "material and instinctual dimensions to interior and spiritual ones."31 Parents have a grave responsibility to give good example to their children. By knowing how to acknowledge their own failings to their children, parents will be better able to guide and correct them:

As for age of when the child is no longer under the parent, I would just ask if this child is living with the parents. If they are, then listen to the parents.

This is information about a temptation, not a sin. Suppose I was 16. Why would my parents have a right to know the ways I am tempted?

Because this goes more than just temptation. The girl has “been” with another girl for more than a year. Temptation of this sort is also important given the current setting.

And this is a good thing! Since she can act in freedom, she is not alienated from te situation.

Huh? Look, I am not quiet sure what I am arguing with you here. My goal here is to make sure the Catholic understanding is presented. What you present here with all of this “freedom” and things are not the Catholic understanding. The parents have a right and duty to educate the children. Neither you nor I or a sibling should impede or refrain from providing valuable information when they possess it that helps in this matter.

So do you have any actual objection to that?

 

[Eufrosnia]

Probably the same thing, but then I’m also the same age as you.

What is there to do but continue to love her as your sister? Don’t think any less of her, and at the same time don’t support her (agree to disagree) on the sinful parts of her life.

Basically, treat her as you should treat any other.

Also, I wouldn’t offer the information to your parents unless they directly ask. She would probably be much more grateful if she “grew out of it”.
As an aside, I have been in a similar situation with my brother (not the same, but a similar “should I tell my parents” situation).

What is wrong with telling parents?

If the child told you that they were not getting enough sleep or in depression, would not tell the parents too? Why is it different all of a sudden when the matter is spiritual?

 

[LauraThomson]

Take your sister to confession and ask her to talk to the priest about it in confession. Jesus speaks through the priest in this sacrament. He’ll tell her exactly what to do. She should receive the sacraments frequently so she can overcome these temptations. The wearing of a crucifix or a St. Benedict medal will help keep Satan and his minions away, too. Maybe this is how the devil wants to prevent her from becoming a nun. As a parent, I would want to know this was happening so that I could help her, especially on a spiritual level. Prayers and fasting from a parent are powerful intercessions.

 

[Lamentation]

What is wrong with telling parents?

If the child told you that they were not getting enough sleep or in depression, would not tell the parents too? Why is it different all of a sudden when the matter is spiritual?

Because, quite frankly, it’s what siblings do. If one feels that they need to tell one of their siblings and not the entire family, it would suggest that they place a great amount of trust in the sibling; so much, that they trust you to keep it to yourself.

 

[Eufrosnia]

Because, quite frankly, it’s what siblings do. If one feels that they need to tell one of their siblings and not the entire family, it would suggest that they place a great amount of trust in the sibling; so much, that they trust you to keep it to yourself.

Yes, I am aware that this is what siblings do. But I am asking the question as to whether this is what siblings ought to do.

Because as we can see, there is a some contradiction in how the matter is treated when it is temporal vs. spiritual.

 

[Lamentation]

…The wearing of a crucifix or a St. Benedict medal will help keep Satan and his minions away, too. Maybe this is how the devil wants to prevent her from becoming a nun.

I agree that prayer is a powerful means of asking for God’s intercession, but I would caution against being superstitious with religious symbols.

 

[Lamentation]

Yes, I am aware that this is what siblings do. But I am asking the question as to whether this is what siblings ought to do.

Because as we can see, there is a some contradiction in how the matter is treated when it is temporal vs. spiritual.

Not necessarily. :compcoff: I would similarly keep information about a sibling cutting themselves (so long as they’re definitely attempting to stop). I would tell parents when it involves impending physical harm to themselves or others, or an act leading to scandal.

In this case, I don’t believe that there is impending scandal. While she claims she’s “in a relationship”, she’s obviously hid it well enough that the original poster didn’t know anything about it.

Also, I respectfully disagree with your notion that compromising the trust between siblings is what ought to be done. In doing so, it breaks the sibling bond and leads to nothing but infighting :slapfight:, which I can also tell you from experience is never good. :stretcher:

 

[Prodigal_Son]

My goal here is to make sure the Catholic understanding is presented.

And you have not presented evidence that the view you are presenting is the Catholic view.

The quotation from the Catechism talks about parents educating children, not about the rights of parents over knowing the content of their children’s personal struggles. I do not deny that there may be some such rights. But you haven’t said what the scope and limits of these rights are.

What you present here with all of this “freedom” and things are not the Catholic understanding.

The Catholic understanding is that the will is of primary importance. Obviously, the will must be free. So why the scare quotes around freedom, as if Catholics didn’t believe in it?

The parents have a right and duty to educate the children. Neither you nor I or a sibling should impede or refrain from providing valuable information when they possess it that helps in this matter.

So do you have any actual objection to that?

So they should educate. I don’t see how one’s duty to educate entails one’s right to be informed.

Sorry if I’m coming off as a bit peevish! I do feel rather strongly about what the right thing to do here is, although I’m interested in whether the Church teaches otherwise.