Little things

[Delphinus85]

Why do some people here get so worried about the little things at church? Does it really matter if we are holding hands, not holding hands, singing contemporary praise songs or traditional hymns, kneeling too much or too little? As long as we are not intentionally being disrespectful and as long as we are doing our best to do as Jesus would want us to do then we are good with God. I really think some people here come across as overly pious and self-righteous and it is a real shame. In fact, posts like these just clutter the forums. We are told not to worry about tomorrow because tomorrow will take care of itself. Think about how God feeds the sparrows. We have no need to worry about the little things. Relax and enjoy being in the grace of God

I AGREE!

Think about it! I know I wish my church would loosen up a bit, especially about singing some different kinds of music. Who knows, we might actually have younger people come in to the church!! Heaven forbid!

 

[Ferdy_000]

1. Holding hands during the Our Father.

This is oddly widespread in the United States but it’s an illicit addition to the liturgy. The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice “must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.” And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because “no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority” (ibid).

Notitiae (17 [1981] 186)) also reaffirms that the priest may never invite the congregation to stand around the altar and hold hands during the Consecration. He stays in the sanctuary and we stay outside of it.

Just in case you missed this. -God bless

 

[Linnyo]

Oh right…

What about the way in which a person sits on their seat?

1. Holding hands during the Our Father.

This is oddly widespread in the United States but it’s an illicit addition to the liturgy. The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice “must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.” And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because “no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority” (ibid).

Notitiae (17 [1981] 186)) also reaffirms that the priest may never invite the congregation to stand around the altar and hold hands during the Consecration. He stays in the sanctuary and we stay outside of it.

Just in case you missed this. -God bless

 

[Walking_Home]

I’ve worked in big and small offices. Again it is not the same as taking it into your own hands to correct a fellow parishioner. Also, as was said in many different ways, “You catch more bees with honey”

Lux

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The Church says you are wrong. From what you and others are saying—you are follow a different interpretation of what Charity means.
CCC

1829 The fruits of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: …

 

[Ferdy_000]

All I know that it just takes a lot of humility to submit the “little things”.

 

[Cat]

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The Church says you are wrong. From what you and others are saying—you are follow a different interpretation of what Charity means.
CCC

1829 The fruits of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: …

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The key word is “fraternal.” Correct your brother or sister, not a total stranger.

Is the person you plan to correct truly a brother? Do you know his name? Do you know his family situation (married, kids, parents, recent death or tragedy in the family? etc.)

Have you worked with him in the church or done things socially with him? Do you know his physical condition (recent illness, hospitalization, trying to lose weight, has a gimpy knee, etc.) Do you know what his likes and dislikes are, his favorite sports team, his workplace, his favorite hangouts, where he lives? Have you been in his home, and has he and his family been in your home? Have you shared a meal or at least a coffee or beer together?

And does he know you? All the same questions above.

Brothers KNOW each other. Unless you KNOW someone as a brother, then you shouldn’t correct someone until you can do so fraternally. That’s what the Church says, right?

 

[Cat]

On the lighter side…

I can’t help but wonder what Father would say if I entered the Confessional and said, “Bless me Father…I have draped my arm across the back of the pew during Mass.”

Priests SAY they’ve heard everything during Reconciliation. But I’d be willing to bet they’ve never heard that one before!

Now if someone said, “Bless me Father…I have had an internal attitude of irreverence to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament during Mass that expressed itself externally in my body posture during Mass”-- that would be a sin.

 

[Walking_Home]

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
The Church says you are wrong. From what you and others are saying—you are follow a different interpretation of what Charity means.
CCC

1829 The fruits of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: …

The key word is “fraternal.” Correct your brother or sister, not a total stranger.
Is the person you plan to correct truly a brother? Do you know his name? Do you know his family situation (married, kids, parents, recent death or tragedy in the family? etc.)

Have you worked with him in the church or done things socially with him? Do you know his physical condition (recent illness, hospitalization, trying to lose weight, has a gimpy knee, etc.) Do you know what his likes and dislikes are, his favorite sports team, his workplace, his favorite hangouts, where he lives? Have you been in his home, and has he and his family been in your home? Have you shared a meal or at least a coffee or beer together?

And does he know you? All the same questions above.

Brothers KNOW each other. Unless you KNOW someone as a brother, then you shouldn’t correct someone until you can do so fraternally. That’s what the Church says, right?

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This coming from you. From your various contributions —it seems “community” has been in the forefront. Are we not brothers and sisters in Christ.

By the way—do not add to the Catechism what is not there. When the Church speaks of fraternal correction — it is not depended as to whether we are related by birth.

 

[Cat]

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This coming from you. From your various contributions —it seems “community” has been in the forefront. Are we not brothers and sisters in Christ.

By the way—do not add to the Catechism what is not there. When the Church speaks of fraternal correction — it is not depended as to whether we are related by birth.

Forgive me, Walking_Home. I didn’t mean that brothers had to be related by birth in my previous post. Sorry if I was unclear.

 

[Cat]

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This coming from you. From your various contributions —it seems “community” has been in the forefront. Are we not brothers and sisters in Christ.

By the way—do not add to the Catechism what is not there. When the Church speaks of fraternal correction — it is not depended as to whether we are related by birth.

Walking_Home, CHRIST is in the forefront. He is the Lord of Heaven and Earth.

Christians are His BODY. We are the Body of Christ.

We are not individual bodies of Christ. All together, we make up His Body.

Individual Christianity is what Protestantism is all about, and that is one reason I left the Protestant church–Christianity is not about Me and Jesus. It’s about US and Jesus. When I read about Catholicism and learned about Christian “community” and the Body of Christ, I wanted to belong to that Body.

That’s what the Bible and the Catechism teach. We are Christians not only as individuals, but in community.

So yes, I think Christiain community is very important. That’s what the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[Walking_Home]

Forgive me, Walking_Home. I didn’t mean that brothers had to be related by birth in my previous post. Sorry if I was unclear.

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And brothers does not mean that we have to have personal knowledge of a person.

 

[chicago]

1. Holding hands during the Our Father.

This is oddly widespread in the United States but it’s an illicit addition to the liturgy. The official publication of the Sacred Congregation for the Sacrament sand Divine Worship, Notitiae (11 [1975] 226), states the practice “must be repudiated . . . it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on a personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics.” And anything not in the rubrics is unlawful, again because “no other person . . . may add . . . anything [to] the liturgy on his own authority” (ibid).

Notitiae (17 [1981] 186)) also reaffirms that the priest may never invite the congregation to stand around the altar and hold hands during the Consecration. He stays in the sanctuary and we stay outside of it.

Just in case you missed this. -God bless

Can anyone cite these notitiae in their entirety? While I’m not a particular supporter of either practice, I do find it curious that I have never heard another apologist cite the notes on these matters previously, and it appears possible that this author may be taking their rulings slightly out of context from other decisions in order to make application to this specific concern.

 

[chicago]

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And brothers does not mean that we have to have personal knowledge of a person.

But to correct another in a fraternal manner may well mean that we DO require some degree of personal relationship whereby one listens to understand before speaking up to admonish.

 

[aimee]

Can anyone cite these notitiae in their entirety? While I’m not a particular supporter of either practice, I do find it curious that I have never heard another apologist cite the notes on these matters previously, and it appears possible that this author may be taking their rulings slightly out of context from other decisions in order to make application to this specific concern.

Check this and you can find some answers to your quesion:
The Liturgy Documents: A Parish Resource by Liturgy Training Publications at the Archdiocese of Chicago.

 

[Walking_Home]

But to correct another in a fraternal manner may well mean that we DO require some degree of personal relationship whereby one listens to understand before speaking up to admonish.

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One does need to approach the other in order to listen to understand–don’t we. We do have to make that initial contact with the other person. Some of what has been peddled here–is that it would be “uncharitable” to even approach another.

One must also be careful of withholding charity because there is a lack of “degree of personal relationship”. Does one withhold drink of water from someone —because we don’t know their name and/or do not have a required degree of personal relationship.

 

[chicago]

Check this and you can find some answers to your quesion:
The Liturgy Documents: A Parish Resource by Liturgy Training Publications at the Archdiocese of Chicago.

Thank you. (Ironic that this house would be the one to put such a thing out.)

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Originally Posted by Lux et Tenebrae
I’ve worked in big and small offices. Again it is not the same as taking it into your own hands to correct a fellow parishioner. Also, as was said in many different ways, “You catch more bees with honey”

Lux

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The Church says you are wrong. From what you and others are saying—you are follow a different interpretation of what Charity means.
CCC

1829 The fruits of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: …

We are not speaking of sin. We are speaking of liturgical norms, and/or personal decisions about how the congregation “MUST” conduct themself (according to a self proclaimed authority)
And (for the third time) I see nothing wrong with a friendlly conversation, but no one in the congregation has the authority to correct another, especially in public.

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

We are not speaking of sin. We are speaking of liturgical norms, and/or personal decisions about how the congregation “MUST” conduct themself (according to a self proclaimed authority)
And (for the third time) I see nothing wrong with a friendlly conversation, but no one in the congregation has the authority to correct another, especially in public.

Lux

Are you going to deny the catechism.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Can anyone cite these notitiae in their entirety? While I’m not a particular supporter of either practice, I do find it curious that I have never heard another apologist cite the notes on these matters previously, and it appears possible that this author may be taking their rulings slightly out of context from other decisions in order to make application to this specific concern.

Also the GIRM is 2002, so any older instructions are superceded.

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

Also the GIRM is 2002, so any older instructions are superceded.
Lux

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Not exactly----if the GIRM does not call for a previous instruction to be superceded—it is still in force. The one in question — pertaineds to holding hands. The GIRM does not call the previous instruction into question nor does it supercede the instruction.