Living Together?

[kage_ar]

No matter who you are, there is somebody who looks up to you. You may not know who that someone is…

This year, I volunteered to teach CCD for the first time. I’ve not been involved with the parish before in any official position, was not a “well known person” at the parish.

I’m teaching 5th grade. I have a group of 10/11 year olds. That first Sunday, we were studying examples of faith and one of the questions was to name someone who is an example of faith to you. One of those girls said to me “you are, because I see you at mass all the time”. I about fell over. A young lady sees me – a virtual stranger – as an example of faith in her life.

Jesus taught that if someone led a little one astray, it would be better for a millstone to be put around their neck and they be drowned – He seemed pretty clear on setting a good example for the little ones.

No matter what you think, every single thing you do could very well be an example to someone else – does living together when not married REALLY give the example we should present or might it lead a little one astray…

 

[Christian4life]

I don’t think it is a good idea, and I have been there. Even if you feel you are justified in what you’re doing, the Bible does say you should avoid *the appearance of evil. *

Right or wrong, people ARE going to judge you. And it may be that people who look up to you and your faith will infer that sleeping togethor is okay. It goes something like this - they think well she is living with her fiance so they must be sleeping togethor, and if she can do that and she’s a good Christian, then it must be okay and I can go do that too.

I know there are situations where people are forced to live with other people that they are tempted to sleep with, but it’s a situation I would really try making a priority of avoiding.

 

[arso347]

Personally, I’m glad there is still a stigma attached to living together before marriage . . . you can call this close mindedness if you want. I wish the stigma was stronger.

Similarly, having a child out of wedlock used to be a huge embarrassment, much more than today. I have read of many couples in the early 20th century marrying and moving away to avoid the shame when she started to show, and the math just didn’t add up right.

I’m not saying this type of ostracizing is appropriate, but the sin sure has increased as we have become more "open minded.”

Once the stigma goes away, the sinful behavior becomes normalized and increases. God forbid my sins be made public, but that doesn’t mean that sins of a public nature should be treated as acceptable behavior.

 

[Penny_Plain]

Tantum ergo:

I agree that there is really no way to rationalize or justify it. But, we have people here who have experienced real difficulty, and not a one of us is perfect. I think, yes, if Jesus approached us we wouldn’t be proud of our sins; I don’t think anyone here is proud of having sinned, really. . .but I also think that the most important part to remember is that we have to help bear each other’s burdens. We don’t want to make them any harder than they already are.

We don’t have to beat people when they’re already down, right? We can be encouraging of the future without bringing up the present. That doesn’t mean we’re IGNORING current sin, it means that we are aware, trust the person to rectify the situation, and give them a that they’ll be doing the right thing in future.

A -freakin’-men!!!

 

[TreeHugger]

Tantum ergo:

not a one of us is perfect.

We don’t have to beat people when they’re already down, right? We can be encouraging of the future without bringing up the present. That doesn’t mean we’re IGNORING current sin, it means that we are aware, trust the person to rectify the situation, and give them a that they’ll be doing the right thing in future.

I agree. I’m hardly perfect. Thing is, we can’t be shy about telling someone if something is wrong when they ask. Don’t judge the person, judge the action. That’s what i thought we were doing here.

However, how can we encourage them about the future if they don’t know what they are doing in the present that is wrong? It seems to me this is ignoring the current sin.

 

[TarAshly]

arso347:

Personally, I’m glad there is still a stigma attached to living together before marriage . . . you can call this close mindedness if you want. I wish the stigma was stronger.

Similarly, having a child out of wedlock used to be a huge embarrassment, much more than today. I have read of many couples in the early 20th century marrying and moving away to avoid the shame when she started to show, and the math just didn’t add up right.

I’m not saying this type of ostracizing is appropriate, but the sin sure has increased as we have become more "open minded.”

Once the stigma goes away, the sinful behavior becomes normalized and increases. God forbid my sins be made public, but that doesn’t mean that sins of a public nature should be treated as acceptable behavior.

ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY KIDDING ME!?
my sister has a baby and she is unmarried and a better mother than some married women i know! she has to face people and their bigotry daily! she is now dating my soon to be husbands best friend and his parents have all but disowned him for taking her and the baby on! its attitudes like this that cause the fear and embarrasment of unwed mothers that put such a shame in them! shame on you! the Christian thing to do is love the sinner! why humiliate people for mistakes theyve made in their lives. like you said “God forbid my sins ever be made public” well its kind of hard to hide a pregnany belly or a baby, so just because your sins can be hidden you shouldnt face stigma or shame?!

 

[TarAshly]

TreeHugger:

I agree. I’m hardly perfect. Thing is, we can’t be shy about telling someone if something is wrong when they ask. Don’t judge the person, judge the action. That’s what i thought we were doing here.

However, how can we encourage them about the future if they don’t know what they are doing in the present that is wrong? It seems to me this is ignoring the current sin.

of course you can! encouragement in a kind and loving and non judgemental manner will get you farther than causing that person shame or embarrasment. personally i would like to see the Church take on that kind of attitude, and be more charitable and less judgemental. of course this is just my humble opinion.

 

[TreeHugger]

It seems to me some of us are having trouble distinguishing between judging the action, and judging the person. A Catholic is not supposed to judge others, but there is nothing wrong with saying an action is in line with Church teaching (AKA right) or wrong. I think that if those of you who feel under attack make this distinction, you’ll see the intentions of most people on these forums is to judge actions according to the Church’s teaching, and not to cast stones. I’d much rather have someone give me a straight-up, Catholic view on an issue than have them distort it with secular morality.

 

[TarAshly]

who said anything about secular morality… i simply suggested a more charitable way to deal with people who have made mistakes in their lives. should we revert to stoning?! theres nothing wrong with opening your mind a little to the world around you and the crosses people bear daily.

 

[caroljm36]

Economics as a reason to move in together is a cop-out. You shouldn’t be getting married if one or both of you can’t afford to live on your own already. That’s not Catholicism, that’s just common sense.

I have a theory as to why so many women are eager to shack up: They don’t trust the “fiancé.” They’re afraid an old girlfriend will show up, or he’ll party without her, meet somone else, have too much fun…so she wants to control the situation.

Bad way to start a marriage.

 

[TreeHugger]

TarAshly:

i simply suggested a more charitable way to deal with people who have made mistakes in their lives. should we revert to stoning?! theres nothing wrong with opening your mind a little to the world around you and the crosses people bear daily.

Hey Tarashly,

I’m not sure i’m catching what you’re trying to say. Please explain a more charitable way to deal with people than what i’ve been explaining on this thread. And what do u mean by opening your mind to the world?

 

[TarAshly]

caroljm36:

Economics as a reason to move in together is a cop-out. You shouldn’t be getting married if one or both of you can’t afford to live on your own already. That’s not Catholicism, that’s just common sense.

I have a theory as to why so many women are eager to shack up: They don’t trust the “fiancé.” They’re afraid an old girlfriend will show up, or he’ll party without her, meet somone else, have too much fun…so she wants to control the situation.

Bad way to start a marriage.

none of those “theories” had anything to do with my decision. as i have said before i will marry him. no question about it. and i am financially independent of him now. in fact i make more money than he does at this moment. (not for long with his new job)
that was part of the reason. when we did move in together i had to have surgery that i couldnt afford. he offered to pay for it but he couldnt support me ( i couldnt work for a while ) and my apartment and his own. so we merged i dont expect you to understand nor do i ask you to. i am tough enough to take judgement. my point is that some arent. is it truly Christ like to hurt and humiliate people?

 

[TarAshly]

TreeHugger:

Hey Tarashly,

I’m not sure i’m catching what you’re trying to say. Please explain a more charitable way to deal with people than what i’ve been explaining on this thread. And what do u mean by opening your mind to the world?

you suggested casting stigmas on them, why shouldnt they be embarrassed etc… im suggesting love the sinner, show them that God loves even the lowliest of sinners and we as the body of Christ should strive to do the same thing. who are you (or any of us for that matter) to judge a person on past mistakes. what i meant by opening up your mind is that our society has changed and our temperment must as well if we ever hope to accomplish the conversion of those who have left or never been a part of the Church.

 

[TreeHugger]

TarAshly:

you suggested casting stigmas on them, why shouldnt they be embarrassed etc… im suggesting love the sinner, show them that God loves even the lowliest of sinners and we as the body of Christ should strive to do the same thing. who are you (or any of us for that matter) to judge a person on past mistakes. what i meant by opening up your mind is that our society has changed and our temperment must as well if we ever hope to accomplish the conversion of those who have left or never been a part of the Church.

I’m not trying to be rude TarAsh, but i never suggested casting anything. What i said (if you read my post again you’ll see) is that people on these forums are not trying to cast stones by judging people, but are judging actions according to Church teaching. The fact that they are judging the actions and not the sinner shows this love you speak of, does it not?

 

[mercygate]

The problem is less of an engaged couple living together than of Catholics living together and coming to the altar to receive the Holy Eucharist. Pick one. Dems da rules. And the rules are in place for a VERY good reason.

You cannot in good faith realistically expect to share an address and phone number with somebody without being a cause of scandal. You are making a public statement. Expect a public reaction.

It is NOT unreasonable, given our society, to believe that two young engaged people living in the same house are sleeping together. It would be extraordinary and unrealistic to think they are not sleeping together. And insofar as that is a perfectly predictable assumption, it is NOT uncalled-for judgmentalism toward the hapless couple. (Sorry, TarAshley. We know what your extenuations are, and you know also that ain’t nobody on the planet except you, me, a couple of people here, your fiance, and your priest gonna believe you’re trying as hard as you are to ‘do the right thing.’)

Again, I say: if you are living together, simply do not present yourself to receive the Eucharist. How hard is that? It reflects honesty and integrity and maturity on your part.

 

[arso347]

TarAshly:

ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY KIDDING ME!?
my sister has a baby and she is unmarried and a better mother than some married women i know! she has to face people and their bigotry daily! she is now dating my soon to be husbands best friend and his parents have all but disowned him for taking her and the baby on! its attitudes like this that cause the fear and embarrasment of unwed mothers that put such a shame in them! shame on you! the Christian thing to do is love the sinner! why humiliate people for mistakes theyve made in their lives. like you said “God forbid my sins ever be made public” well its kind of hard to hide a pregnany belly or a baby, so just because your sins can be hidden you shouldnt face stigma or shame?!

Listen, I am all for loving compassion. I am all for helping those in difficult situations. I am all for “loving the sinner” as you put it. I made no comment on the obligation of Christians to withhold judgment and reach out to those in need. We are all sinners, of course.

But, are you saying there should be NO SHAME felt when a persons sins are of a public nature? All I am saying is that as our society becomes more accepting of sinful behavior the behavior increases.

I would feel great shame if my sins were made public, and I think that’s the way it should be. The sin we are discussing manifests itself in a public way, and in the case of cohabitation, the act is ongoing.

Don’t even try to make this a discussion on “compassion”, that is a completely different topic. Of course we should be compassionate.

It is a sign of the times when people feel no shame for their public sins.

 

[Christian4life]

arso347:

Listen, I am all for loving compassion. I am all for helping those in difficult situations. I am all for “loving the sinner” as you put it. I made no comment on the obligation of Christians to withhold judgment and reach out to those in need. We are all sinners, of course.

But, are you saying there should be NO SHAME felt when a persons sins are of a public nature? All I am saying is that as our society becomes more accepting of sinful behavior the behavior increases.

I would feel great shame if my sins were made public, and I think that’s the way it should be. The sin we are discussing manifests itself in a public way, and in the case of cohabitation, the act is ongoing.

Don’t even try to make this a discussion on “compassion”, that is a completely different topic. Of course we should be compassionate.

It is a sign of the times when people feel no shame for their public sins.

I agree. If it is a public sin it is usually an ongoing thing too.
I don’t see how it can be all that public if it is in the past. Even if a person gets pregnant out of wedlock, most people aren’t going to know unless they start asking questions and she tells them, all they can see up front is that she’s pregnant. The rest is none of anybody else’s business, and she shoud say so. I couldn’t wear my wedding ring when I was preg because my fingers were swollen, and nobody bugged me about it at all. Some bad appearances can’t be helped, but if anybody is judgemental of someone else to the point of being a jerk, that is really wrong.

Of course it’s wrong to make people feel ashamed of sins that are in the past but are forgiven and forgotten. Of course we should show compassion and understanding to any and all people. But remember what Jesus said after he told the person who was without sin to throw the first stone.

Go and sin no more.

Furthermore, if you follow the golden rule, it makes things a lot simpler. How would you like to be treated if you were in that situation? If I were living in sin (as I once was) I would rather have someone face me about it and tell me kindly that I in a sinful situation and should repent, than just let me go on and make myself miserable like I did.

I am not saying you are sinning right now, but please don’t put yourself in a position where you are tempted to. That isn’t doing yourself any favors. “It’s better to marry than to burn” I believe may apply here.

 

[jimmy]

I am all for showing compassion and love, but what it seems like some are saying on this thread is basically ignore the sin. They are saying do not judge. You have to judge sometimes. I am not saying hold past sins against someone, but the question of the thread is should people live together before marriage. If someone is living with there boyfriend or girlfriend it is an ongoing sin. Its not something they do on the spur of the moment, it is a whole lifestyle. So you have to judge the action. There should be shame that comes with sinning, and people have to know that what they are doing is wrong. If it is something that was done in the past, then let it go, you have no right to judge it.

 

[Steve_Andersen]

SP38:

easily remedied with a trip to the JP

Yeah that is on the agenda (in fact IIRC she is a JP in this state) to give us some legal protection
And a real live church wedding too.

I never said that I was “proud or unashamed”
I didn’t try to rationalize anything (I said there were reasons but didn’t bore you with the details or ask you to accept them I didn’t even say they were good reasons)

While I appreciate everyone’s charitable comments and concern, as Shakespeare once said “the sin on my head dread sovereign”

It is one of many things I need to amend in my life…that s why they call it “practicing” after all. After 40 odd years I’m still trying to get it right…or at least a little better.

As for “appearance of scandal” I would think that people are charitable in their thoughts and not make assumptions about private maters of which they do not know.

 

[chemcatholic]

TarAshly:

in my personal opinion i dont think it affects marriage IF you have a date set, dont expect to move in with someone as a test drive. thats wrong, but if youre already commited to marriage and ready to deal with the awful judgement you will face, then it is a personal decision between you and God and i would pray on it extensively beforehand.

Sorry to break it to you, but having a date set does NOT guarantee that the wedding will proceed as plan - I’m living proof. Less than two months before our wedding, the date of which had been set months before, my former fiancee’ decided to part ways with me. We were both heavily committed to the marriage, until she changed her mind.

I’m not questioning your commitment to your fiancee’, or his commitment to you, but plans and desires can change when least expected.

Peace