Living Together?

[TarAshly]

Hey Steve,
it sounds like you and i have a lot in common. we both seek answers that others would never question, and we both use the free will God himself gave us to make our own decisions and lead our own lives. Im not a sheep, im not going to believe something just because someone told me too. im gonna read, pray and seek and learn until i KNOW because i found out for myself. you seem to be the same way. This doesnt make us bad people or bad Catholics. it just makes us hard headed. not a thing in the world wrong with that. i also live with my fiance, it was NEVER something we planned or intended on. it just happened. we both have prayed about it ALOT! and have made our peace with God on it. we have both been to confession on it, and again feel we are forgiven. your relationship with God is not for others interpretation, its between you and God. if you feel you have made your peace with God over this then i wouldnt worry. especially if you are remaining Chaste. i HATE the term scandal! for me people who seek out to search and destroy scandal like a missal bomb are just a bunch of bored old bittys who need to get a life of theyre own. dont worry about it. In my opinion the true Christians are not the ones who seek out to point out sin, (and bad mouth your mother im sure shes a wonderful lady) but those who try and understand the sinner. i dont want to belong to a church if im constantly being guarded by the old bored bittys. thank God i belong to a parish with the majority of parishoners being young people who all seek to open our hearts to anyone in need of help. not tie them to a stake. regardless of their sin. you should see our easter vigil! we take so MANY people into the church it brings me to tears every time and im grateful to be a part of that.

 

[arso347]

TarAshly:

Hey Steve,
it sounds like you and i have a lot in common. we both seek answers that others would never question, and we both use the free will God himself gave us to make our own decisions and lead our own lives. Im not a sheep, im not going to believe something just because someone told me too. im gonna read, pray and seek and learn until i KNOW because i found out for myself. you seem to be the same way. This doesnt make us bad people or bad Catholics. it just makes us hard headed. not a thing in the world wrong with that. i also live with my fiance, it was NEVER something we planned or intended on. it just happened. we both have prayed about it ALOT! and have made our peace with God on it. we have both been to confession on it, and again feel we are forgiven. your relationship with God is not for others interpretation, its between you and God. if you feel you have made your peace with God over this then i wouldnt worry. especially if you are remaining Chaste. i HATE the term scandal! for me people who seek out to search and destroy scandal like a missal bomb are just a bunch of bored old bittys who need to get a life of theyre own. dont worry about it. In my opinion the true Christians are not the ones who seek out to point out sin, (and bad mouth your mother im sure shes a wonderful lady) but those who try and understand the sinner. i dont want to belong to a church if im constantly being guarded by the old bored bittys. thank God i belong to a parish with the majority of parishoners being young people who all seek to open our hearts to anyone in need of help. not tie them to a stake. regardless of their sin. you should see our easter vigil! we take so MANY people into the church it brings me to tears every time and im grateful to be a part of that.

Go ahead and demonize those you disagree with, it seems to make you feel better. I’m glad you won’t get a pat on the back at a Catholic forum for a sinful lifestyle.

And again, this is not an issue of “opening our hearts to anyone in need of help”. Of course we should. Your straw man must be easily persuaded; I’m proud to say the rest of us aren’t.

 

[La_Chiara]

TarAshly–Good heavens girl! Have you learned anything from your many posts and the many responses that you have received on the Catholic forums? The arrogance of youth does not serve you well. “Bored old biddies!” Oh, darling, I wish we could see you in 20 years! Surely, you will have grown up and matured morally a lot by then. Unfortunately, you probably are going to learn the hard way–by making mistakes over and over.

 

[buffalo]

TarAshly:

Hey Steve,
. Im not a sheep, im not going to believe something just because someone told me too. im gonna read, pray and seek and learn until i KNOW because i found out for myself. you seem to be the same way. .

Stop and think for a minute. Most of what you have learned in your life you have learned from other sources. If you depended on everything to be found by yourself you would still be an infant. When you do learn you learn from what you have faith to be “authoritive sources”. Some of these “sources” (todays pop culture) mislead and confuse deliberately. Be careful they don’t become your “authoritive source” with disregard for the Church’s magisterium which has taught truth for way much longer.

 

[TarAshly]

buffalo:

Stop and think for a minute. Most of what you have learned in your life you have learned from other sources. If you depended on everything to be found by yourself you would still be an infant. When you do learn you learn from what you have faith to be “authoritive sources”. Some of these “sources” (todays pop culture) mislead and confuse deliberately. Be careful they don’t become your “authoritive source” with disregard for the Church’s magisterium which has taught truth for way much longer.

as a child i learned from my parents. the thing that has stuck with me that my father taught me is never trust anything to be true until you have figured it out for yourself. as an adult i have taken that to heart. i researched the Catholic Faith and converted based on what i had learned. i am the only Catholic in my family so i had no base to learn there except what i researched. this is a major part of my personality. i am a naturally curious person.

 

[mercygate]

buffalo:

Stop and think for a minute. Most of what you have learned in your life you have learned from other sources. If you depended on everything to be found by yourself you would still be an infant. When you do learn you learn from what you have faith to be “authoritive sources”. Some of these “sources” (todays pop culture) mislead and confuse deliberately. Be careful they don’t become your “authoritive source” with disregard for the Church’s magisterium which has taught truth for way much longer.

Heh, heh, Buffalo. One of the reasons we have a Church is for teaching. I guess we can either choose to learn from her or not. There’s a great old Polish proverb:

Only a fool needs to learn from his own experience.

 

[mercygate]

TarAshly:

as a child i learned from my parents. the thing that has stuck with me that my father taught me is never trust anything to be true until you have figured it out for yourself. as an adult i have taken that to heart. i researched the Catholic Faith and converted based on what i had learned. i am the only Catholic in my family so i had no base to learn there except what i researched. this is a major part of my personality. i am a naturally curious person.

None of us is complete in our Conversion to the Heart of Christ. None of us. But we ALL need to be willing to embrace the “whole counsel of God” – even if we are not ready. We need to dare the difficult. We need to understand that “making our peace with God” cannot happen (for Catholics) until we are attempting with the whole fiber of our being to live our lives in conformity with his plan as graciously offered to us in his Church.

BTW: none of the “bored old biddys” – and buddys who have responded negatively to the idea of living together has in any way put his or her nose where it doesn’t belong. The poster ASKED. You volunteered. Think of us, even us tough birds, as friends and mentors.

Do not confuse hard heartedness with hard headedness. Although they are often one and the same.

 

[John_of_Woking]

RgtAct:

Hello Friends,

 The other day my girlfriend asked a Father is it ok for unmarried adults to live together.  The Father replied that if you are not married it is not ok.  The example he gave her was that if you see a couple leave a motel what goes threw your mind.  The first thing that went threw my mind is that if it is wrong to judge why do we need to worry about how other people think about us.  The only person we need to worry about is God.  So I went to God to try to understand why it is wrong.  The only example I found is the VII Comandment and that is only to prevent sex before marriage.  I understand the temptation but if you truly feel that having sex before marriage is wrong it shouldn't matter if you are in the same room or not.  Any examples would be great and I am looking forward to your responds.

I live with my fiance in separate rooms in my dads house. There’s temptation but prayer means we EASILY refrain from any act reserved for marriage. In fact it was worse when we lived apart because when we’d meet up it’d be much harder to resist.

 

[mercygate]

John of Woking:

I live with my fiance in separate rooms in my dads house. There’s temptation but prayer means we EASILY refrain from any act reserved for marriage. In fact it was worse when we lived apart because when we’d meet up it’d be like BANG

Hope it’s still “BANG!” for you after the wedding and for many years to come! God love ya, John!

 

[John_of_Woking]

mercygate:

Hope it’s still “BANG!” for you after the wedding and for many years to come! God love ya, John!

’
Thanks! God Bless you!

 

[Joan_M]

Steve Andersen:

In fact when we went to visit my folks for the holidays a few years back I was expecting to sleep on the couch but my CCD teaching, choir member, Mom made up one bed for us without even asking

And I was too well raised to contradict my mother

It’s always easy for us to slip deeper into sin. You should have insisted on sleeping on the couch, and should have corrected your mother.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Originally Posted by Steve Andersen
*
In fact when we went to visit my folks for the holidays a few years back I was expecting to sleep on the couch but my CCD teaching, choir member, Mom made up one bed for us without even asking

And I was too well raised to contradict my mother *
Joan M:

It’s always easy for us to slip deeper into sin. You should have insisted on sleeping on the couch, and should have corrected your mother.

Agreed! CCD teachers and choir members are sinners too. We are to honor our parents. We don’t honor them by keeping the truth from them.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Steve_Andersen]

La Chiara:

Steve, buddy–I hear a lot of pride and arrogance in your posts. Why do you come and post on Catholic forums about sinful behavior that you justify and rationalize? It seems to me that you are toying with the people on this forum. Do you mess with your fiancee’ the same way? I rather suspect so. You can fool some of the people some of the time…

Huh?

I’m not quite sure how you read that into my posts.
If I came off that way I’m sorry.
I’m a New Yorker we tend to be glib but unfortunately blunt people

Someone had posted that they lived with their fiancé and I said I did too.

Someone asked additional questions and I responded to the best of my ability

I didn’t supply details or any rationalizations
I didn’t say it was all OK
I didn’t ask for forgiveness or understanding
Nor do I think it would be appropriate to here

I just thought it best that if I was exchanging ideas with people they about an issue should know where I stood

I came here because I’m interested in discussing ideas

After a 20-30 year absence I’m wending my way back to the Church…or at least trying to

I’ve been listening to the CA radio shows for a while and I knew this would be a conservative group. I thought it would be interesting to participate.

If everyone came here and said the same things it would sort of be pointless wouldn’t it.

As for “toying” could you give some examples?

 

[montanaman]

I know where Steve’s coming from. I spent about ten years “away” from the Church, and when I was finally coming in for a landing, there was a transitional time when the old life still had its claws in me, and the new life, while extremely attractive, hadn’t quite “taken.” I didn’t excuse my actions with rationalizations, and I didn’t pretend that my intentions were good enough. Yet, I still chose to sin.

Maybe it’s not exactly the same situation, but in that transitional period I would bristle at the judgements I knew were right. I 95% believed, but I wasn’t…quite…there.

It sounds like Steve is there. As long as he isn’t making up his own “truth” or morality, he’s on the right track.

And Steve, I know how condescending that must sound, especially coming from a 30-year-old “kid,” but the faith “journey” is roughly similar for all people, I believe. The point is, I hear you. I don’t believe that living together is a good idea, and it’s totally unjustifiable according to the Church, but I also know what it’s like to be juggling with several contradictions in that period before the final plunge.

 

[mercygate]

Welcome back, Steve! Got a copy of the *Catechism of the Catholic Church *yet? It’s a gold mine.

And for sexual stuff, get Christopher West’s Good News about Sex and Marriage. It’s a small book --very “New York” by your definition: blunt, clear, mincing nothing.

 

[Steve_Andersen]

TarAshly:

Hey Steve,
it sounds like you and i have a lot in common. we both seek answers that others would never question, and we both use the free will God himself gave us to make our own decisions and lead our own lives.

I thought that was the whole point of Chrisitanity.

The notion of predestination just appalls me.

TarAshly:

with God is not for others interpretation, its between you and God.

well….yes and no
while ultimately it will be me alone standing in front of the Big Guy

I always thought that the point of having a Church was so that we didn’t need to struggle alone.

We can pray for each other and advise one another

And besides humans are capable of infinite self-delusion so that without some sort of larger community to provide a reality check we can convince ourselves that everything is OK.

After all Jim Jones thought that God was telling him to drink the kool aid.

TarAshly:

if you feel you have made your peace with God over this then i wouldnt worry. especially if you are remaining Chaste.

err…no comment.

<Editorial warning: skip if you think you’ll be offended>
I believe or rather I know that the Church has great insight in theological matters
My personal problems and conflicts with Her come with matters that are deeply related to biology, anthropology, and sociology

While I think that it is a Good Thing to encourage chaste behavior in teens and young adults from both a religious and civil point of view

I think that to expect such behavior from healthy, normal, grown-ups (with all the drives, wants, and needs that God gave them) is not in anybody’s interest.

While it is true that there are “sex-addicts” who abuse the Gift God gave them I think that there are others with such severe sexual hang-ups that it boarders on pathology (sort of like my ex-wife) or who are so interested in what others do in their bedrooms it is sort of a perversion itself.

Like most things in life there is a healthy medium. And frankly I’m interested in what people do the other 23 hours of the day.

TarAshly:

i HATE the term scandal! for me people who seek out to search and destroy scandal like a missal bomb are just a bunch of bored old bittys who need to get a life of theyre own………

The fear of scandal has its place

That is part of the price of belonging to a group
You have to realize that everything you do can reflect on the group

Remember that college basketball player who got in trouble for turning her back on the flag? She had to give up her personal right to protest because she was wearing the school’s uniform.

Similarly how do you feel when the news speaks of a pedophile priest case or that Bishop who did the hit and run last year? Do your Protestant friends say “Well, there’s those Catholics for you”. Kinda hurts doesn’t it?

On the other hand, you are right that a line must be draw between preventing scandal and bearing false witness.

Finding fault with others can also be an unhealthy obcession

……. thank God i belong to a parish with the majority of parishoners being young people who all seek to open our hearts to anyone in need of help. not tie them to a stake. regardless of their sin. you should see our easter vigil! we take so MANY people into the church it brings me to tears every time and im grateful to be a part of that.

Sounds great!

 

[Elizabeth_B]

"Jesus then said to those Jews who believed in him, “If you remain in my word, you will truly be my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

I heard Father John Corapi speak on this passage, which I’ve heard many times before. He pointed out something I’ve meditated on many times since:

Obedience comes first. If you don’t obey Christ’s commands, you will not know the Truth.

Once I made the decision to follow Christ’s teachings, including those taught by the Church to whom He gave authority, I found that I saw the world differently.

Those who continue to live sinfully, will continue to rationalize their behavior. Like the Israelites wandering in the desert, they are a stiff-necked people and will neither see nor understand the Truth.

Also, I was taught that if I confess a sin for which I am not sorry and which I have no intention of discontinuing, then I am not absolved of that sin.

All may seem judgmental on my part, but we are called to admonish sinners and to exhort them to proper behavior.

 

[mercygate]

Steve, you may not be at the goal post but you’ve definitely got possession possession of the ball and you’re making the drive. Even if you’re only at the 30-yard line, you’re in the game.

Get that Christopher West book.

As I said to RgtAct: We Catholics are called to be the Marines of the moral battle, not the weenies. Living the Catholic sexual mores – once you have the guts to go for it – can be an amazing experience. But you’re right: it ain’t EASY!

 

[bear06]

I thought that was the whole point of Chrisitanity.

The whole point of Christianity is to know God, love God and serve God. It’s not to make decisions to please us. It’s to make decisions to please God. Now God is not going to make us love him. He loves us so much that we get to choose to love him. Going against the teachings of the Church he established to lead us is not loving God, it’s loving us.

The notion of predestination just appalls me.

Pre-destination is not part of the Catholic Faith. We can lose our salvation. Our Church is not based on situation ethics. The rules we have apply to all.

I always thought that the point of having a Church was so that we didn’t need to struggle alone.

I don’t think you’ll find this in the catechism. God mad us to be happy with him in Heaven and he gave us the Church to help us do this. The Church is the timeless guide for all of our lives. It does not change truths to fit certain situations. Truth doesn’t change.

And besides humans are capable of infinite self-delusion so that without some sort of larger community to provide a reality check we can convince ourselves that everything is OK.

Well, I’d guess I’d agree with you here and I think that’s what the people of this thread are doing.

if you feel you have made your peace with God over this then i wouldnt worry. especially if you are remaining Chaste.

Tar, this is relativism which I think is a heresy. At best it’s situation ethics which I think is just about the same thing. There is no “if you feel good about it, then it’s fine and dandy”. There is only does God, through His church say it’s right or wrong.

<Editorial warning: skip if you think you’ll be offended>
I believe or rather I know that the Church has great insight in theological matters
My personal problems and conflicts with Her come with matters that are deeply related to biology, anthropology, and sociology

Hmmm… don’t you think God took all of these things into consideration?

While I think that it is a Good Thing to encourage chaste behavior in teens and young adults from both a religious and civil point of view
I think that to expect such behavior from healthy, normal, grown-ups (with all the drives, wants, and needs that God gave them) is not in anybody’s interest.

God also gave us the gifts of the Holy Spirit to apply to all the drives and wants God gave us to use them in the time and manner HE specified. This is in everybody’s interest. He did not make us a slave to these earthly “wants and needs”. Your logic would lead one to believe that we should be a slave to our physical desires no matter what they are.

(sort of like my ex-wife)

I’m sure this is a whole other argument.

Similarly how do you feel when the news speaks of a pedophile priest case or that Bishop who did the hit and run last year? Do your Protestant friends say “Well, there’s those Catholics for you”. Kinda hurts doesn’t it?

It actually doesn’t make me flinch in the least. You’ve just given a perfect example of people who are picking and choosing what they are going to do because it feels right to them rather than obeying God’s laws. Thankfully, the Church as an institution cannot make these errors. God promised this to us.

Finding fault with others can also be an unhealthy obcession

I agree with this. People who meet somebody and start looking for the scandal or people who walk into a Church looking for abuses have a problem. However, when the faults hit you over the head, it’s quite another thing. One thing to remember is that anybody criticizing shacking up isn’t doing so because of their own laws. They are doing so because it goes against God’s laws.

 

[imfourkids]

I just think back to the time rite after i got married and how awsome it was in our own little rented house. Those time are so fun for us to think about.It was kind of like an a never ending honymoon of life.

Then we had kids ,and thats great too but their is something
about the good old days and the fact that we were married
we were also growing closer and closer.

This is healthy for every married couple.