Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong

[Motherwit]

AuldP:

…antibody surveys suggest only about 20 per cent of people in Stockholm have been infected, similar to levels in London and New York

Comparing NY and Sweden is embarrassing (for NY). Sweden has a much lower death rate (30% of NY). Not bad if they have the same community spread and didn’t bother to shut down.

Deaths per mil pop
NY: 1691
Sweden: 572

But in keeping with the comparison of death rates in gateway cities in a country, Stockholm gives a more accurate picture of deaths per mill pop.

NY: 1691
Stockholm: 2400

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle giving you readers irrelevant population density statistics (because it ignores the fact that almost 90% of Swedes are urban dwellers) . . .

Even Sweden’s urban centers are not as dense as New York City:

Stockholm: 13,000 / mi2
Gothenburg: 3,400 / mi2
Malmö: 10,490 / mi2

vs.:

New York City: 26,403 / mi2 where almost half the population of the state lives

Then you need to apply the public health facts to the integral calculus and admit that area under the curve remains the same with these public health measures taken (even though the shape of the curve changes)

That is not true. It assumes that everyone is going to contract the virus. That is a very pessimistic view that is not supported by science - especially if a vaccine becomes available.

 

[Cathoholic]

LeafByNiggle . . .

Even Sweden’s urban centers are not as dense as New York City

But I didn’t say New York city did I?

Look. If I find numbers where it is worse with mandated masking etc., it won’t make any difference to you will it?

Why not just admit Sweden now has a degree of protection that surpasses other countries?

Which is why even the leftist WHO referred to Sweden as a “model country” (I am going from memory on that quote) as to how we should be approaching corona virus.

There is no evidence for the social mandates being carried out. They are all extrapolations and projections and possibilities.

None!

And I know there is no evidence.

Add into that the ridiculousness of these mandates being carried out (Democrat politicians exempting themselves in person or even by law, people wearing masks on their chins, the same masks being used day after day, consideration of infections due to Government-mandated intra-oral carbonic acid formation almost certainly resulting in “mask-mouth”, exempting leftist rioters, and other risk-benefit ratios that are never considered) and the purported “science” is even more childish.

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This is part of the problem with the global warming spoof too.

I have caught them pulling these stunts innumerable times.

And your guys go along with them instead of this phantom “science”.

(Which is why the Cuomo supporters have refused to condemn Cuomo for violating the “science” even here on CAF.)

Just admit it.

There is no hard evidence for any of this and risk-benefit ratios are being ignored.

 

[Cathoholic]

Leaf . . .

That is a very pessimistic view . . .

I just showed you that the people who are going to get corona, are going to get corona.

I never said “everyone” is going to get it.

The mask game has never been implimented to save lives except by NOT destroying our health care system.
(“Flattening the curve”. Remember THAT Leaf?)

And all the fallacious equivocation of what I actually said, is not going to change this fact.

Not to mention ignoring risk-benefit ratios that national leftist leaders continue to pretend do not exist.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Why not just admit Sweden now has a degree of protection that surpasses other countries?

Because that only applies to a very few countries. Most countries have more protection because of the aggressive public health measures they have taken.

Add into that the ridiculousness of these mandates being carried out…

Your belief. Not mine.

And your guys go along with them instead of this phantom “science”.

(Which is why the Cuomo supporters have refused to condemn Cuomo for violating the “science” even here on CAF.)

I have said that the March 25 ruling was a mistake. But I don’t condemn him for it because he corrected it two weeks later.

 

[Cathoholic]

LeafByNiggle . . .

Most countries have more protection because of the aggressive public health measures they have taken.

They are immunologically “naked” to a large extent.

Immunologically “naked” is not “protection” in the fuller sense.
That is mere avoidance.

Which is almost certainly part of WHY
the WHO disagrees with your thesis.

.

Cathoholic on people wearing their masks on their chins (we have all seen this),
politicians ignoring these mandates (you can see Cuomo doing so above. I included photos.
Rioters (we have all seen the photos) ignoring these whie leftist politicians cheer them on until they show up at their homes, etc.

But who cares when your mind is already made up?

Add into that the ridiculousness of these mandates being carried out…

LeafByNiggles response?

Your belief. Not mine.

Go figure.(??) An illustration of just what I am talking about.

 

[vz71]

Why would you assume Sweden’s statistics are inflated and not assume the same for every other nation?

I have assumed nothing.

That fact is that on a side-by-side comparison with other similar nations, Sweden is doing terrible.

I don’t care about comparing with other countries. I am looking at the death rate compared to other things.

People want to run around in fear over something that doesn’t kill as much as many other things we live with every day.

What exactly are their deaths due to cancer?
What about heart disease?
Car accidents?

Why would we not call for an immediate shut down over these?

 

[vz71]

The population density of New Jersey is 1211 people per square mile. The population density of Sweden is 64 people per square mile.

The population density of Stockholm is 13,000 per square mile according to Stockholm Population 2021 (Demographics, Maps, Graphs)

 

[RuthAnne]

I’m just glad I live where I do. People around here aren’t wearing diapers on their faces. Even the cops don’t comply.

 

[Cathoholic]

vz71 . . .

Why would we not call for an immediate shut down over these?

Not only that but the shutdown is augmenting these other problems (another thing the national leftists IGNORE).

For example, I cannot get in to see my oncologist (we do video conferencing). Chemo and other anti-cancer regimens are being dangerously postponed for some other people over corona mania.

There are a LOT of “side effects” with these unproven mandates made up by bureaucrats.

The bit about population density by others above is a ruse.

If they were so inclined to “open things up” with less population density, they would be publicly calling out Newsome in California for goofy universal implimentation of his mandates (a lot of California is quite rural).

I have never seen ANY posts from those guys criticizing this Democrat for across-the-board implimentation of his ridiculous mandates that are more about feelings than science.

(Which is WHY they can’t criticize Cuomo’s mask hypocrisy either [Lurkers. You can see that again right here]. Their actions say to me politics is supreme.)

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Why would you assume Sweden’s statistics are inflated and not assume the same for every other nation?

I have assumed nothing.

If you don’t assume that then there was no point to your posting:

And how many do they have due to auto accidents…or cancer…or heart disease…or drug use?

as a refutation of the comparatively high covid death rate in Sweden.

That fact is that on a side-by-side comparison with other similar nations, Sweden is doing terrible.

I don’t care about comparing with other countries.

Well, then is no sense in saying the Sweden has a better strategy than other countries. Somebody apparently wants to compare Sweden favorably with other countries, because that is the title of this thread.

I am looking at the death rate compared to other things.

I see. Because more people die in auto accidents, and cancer, and we don’t lock down the nation to combat these things, we should not lock down the nation to combat covid-19. Well, locking down the nation would have no effect on cancer because cancer is not spread by contact. And locking down the nation to prevent auto accidents is a nonsense way to combat auto accidents because we have other ways of combating auto accidents. And banning automobiles may stop auto accidents during the ban, but there is no end in sight to such a ban. However a virus is different. There is hope for a vaccine, and even if there is no vaccine, isolation until it dies out means we can open up afterwards. There is nothing comparable in auto accidents. So your list of other ways to die is just comparing apples to bananas and artichokes and bell peppers and potatoes and kumquats.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

The population density of New Jersey is 1211 people per square mile. The population density of Sweden is 64 people per square mile.

The population density of Stockholm is 13,000 per square mile according to Stockholm Population 2021 (Demographics, Maps, Graphs)

New Jersey is a state. Stockholm is a city. Apples and zucchinis. A more valid comparison would be with New York City, at double the density of Stockholm and 26,000 / mi2. Or, staying in New Jersey, there is Jersey City at ~18,000 / mi2

 

[vz71]

see. Because more people die in auto accidents, and cancer, and we don’t lock down the nation to combat these things, we should not lock down the nation to combat covid-19.

Exactly.
The decision to put up with a certain amount of lost lives is already made for many things.
The speed limit being 55 instead of 45 is a question of lives lost.
Where to put a traffic light is also a question of lives lost.

Every country does this, so why do you find it so reprehensible if Sweden decides the lives lost are not worth the economic problems (including other lives lost) created by a lockdown?

They made the decision, and it seems to be working.

 

[vz71]

Actually, I was pointing out the misleading argument you were trying to make.
You claim Sweden to have a low population density… therefore they are already social distancing.

And the claim is baseless and misleading, particularly when one looks at the cities.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Actually, I was pointing out the misleading argument you were trying to make.
You claim Sweden to have a low population density… therefore they are already social distancing.

Compared to New York, that is true.

 

[vz71]

Compared to New York, that is true.

Your claim was misleading.
Here it is again so we can look at it and make sure I am not mistaken…

The population density of New Jersey is 1211 people per square mile. The population density of Sweden is 64 people per square mile. The math says Sweden has 5% of the population density of New Jersey, so Sweden is social distancing already by virtue of the people being so spread out.

Since we know Stockholm to be much more densely populated, your proposal that they are “so spread out” to be just an erroneous interpretation that misleads people into believing that there are no densely populated areas in Sweden.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Your claim was misleading.
Here it is again so we can look at it and make sure I am not mistaken…

LeafByNiggle:

The population density of New Jersey is 1211 people per square mile. The population density of Sweden is 64 people per square mile. The math says Sweden has 5% of the population density of New Jersey, so Sweden is social distancing already by virtue of the people being so spread out.

Since we know Stockholm to be much more densely populated, your proposal that they are “so spread out” to be just an erroneous interpretation that misleads people into believing that there are no densely populated areas in Sweden.

It is your comment that is misleading because either you are going to compare cities with cities or you are going to compare whole countries with something comparable. Since Sweden has a population that is comparable to New Jersey, that would be a comparable comparison. But it makes no sense to compare Stockholm, the city, with New Jersey, the state when it comes to population density.

 

[Motherwit]

There is significant evidence that covid 19 leaves a lot of sufferers with life shortening conditions related to the heart, blood pressure, cognitive and neurological deficiencies and chronic function decline. These are being discussed at the medical/scientific level but as yet aren’t featuring in the politics of the virus. There are studies tracking the possibility of corona related dementia in the future.

How coronavirus affects memory and cognition in the long term

 

[Cathoholic]

Motherwit . . .

These are being discussed at the medical/scientific level but as yet aren’t featuring in the politics of the virus.

The prevention of complications are part of the reason I have been putting up articles about the successes of early intervention (with things like hydroxychloroquine, now ivermectin is looking promising, I have posted information about camostat, antibody-rich plasma intervention, and other hopeful options, and I may have posted about budesonide - a corticosteroid that is delivered directly to the lungs via nebulization and inhibits the inflammatory cascade to a certain extent).

The national leftists who politicize everything, have been fighting these interventions and even INFORMATION (!!) about these hopeful possible options,
instead wanting to focus on phantom vaccines (where if you think about the physiology, you know have almost no chance of being adequately successful) and other “fancy stuff”.

This is the political dimension.

The leftists nationally anyway,
WANT a high misery-factor
to help with the election (they cannot win on their ideas which they often try to hide).
Their actions have said this many times and I have posted my reasons for this.

SOME of them also see enormous profit to be made.
(You can’t patent something like someone else’s plasma or a generic drug like hydroxychloroquine).

So people like Chris Cuomo recover while maintaining the ability to work during his infection,
but he is silent about the hydroxychloroquine (or hydroxychloroquine-like drug) that he was taking (but his wife accidentally slipped this information out and I have posted it here already).

Instead of talking about it on his show, he remains quiet (while loudly faking coming out of his alleged “super strict” quarantine
which I have ALSO posted about).

It is like finding out Bear Grylls is really sleeping at the motel instead of out in the wild.

Or finding out your favorite vocalist sings with Autotune.

If lives were paramount to people like these guys,
they would not hide things like this
(and they would not be pro-abortion either).

 

[Motherwit]

The prevention of complications are part of the reason I have been putting up articles about the successes of early intervention (with things like hydroxychloroquine, now ivermectin is looking promising, I have posted information about camostat, antibody-rich plasma intervention, and other hopeful options, and I may have posted about budesonide - a corticosteroid that is delivered directly to the lungs via nebulization and inhibits the inflammatory cascade to a certain extent).

I tried to find your previous posts on this but couldn’t see your posting history. Are your articles from univerally accepted medical/scientific sources?