Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong

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Peeps said:
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LeafByNiggle:
even if there is no vaccine, isolation until it dies out means we can open up afterwards
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The virus won’t die out.
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But it can be significantly slowed down until a vaccine is available.
The virus will be around forever, and people will continue to “catch it” and some will die from it.
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I am not ready to give up and neither should anyone else.
But many will miss a week or two of work/school, and feel awful while they’re resting at home–but they won’t require hospitalization or even a doctor’s visit, and they’ll recover more or less fully. (They may suffer from weakness, respiratory issues, aches and pains, etc. for a few months.)
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And many will be left with permanent brain damage, liver damage, and general circulatory system damage. This is not the flu, or even very much like it.
I think a vaccine is a realistic expectation, but I think it will be like the influenze vaccine–a year or even bi-yearly inoculation.
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That has not been established yet. Many researchers working on a vaccine say they are targeting a portion of the virus that is unlikely to mutate - in which case one vaccine will work. We don’t know yet.
LeafByNiggle, what I think you have to keep in mind is that there are really awful effects as a result of the shut-down and the “panic” that the media is disseminating about this virus.
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We are nowhere near “shut down”. We have certain restrictions. Most businesses are continuing with only minor modifications.
I listened to the early a.m. (4:00 a.m!) AgNews this morning, and the message was grim–around 20% of restaurants will close permenantly–and this affects farmers and many others.
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There will take some adjustment in packaging to switch to packaging for the home market, but they will adapt. People still have to eat, whether they eat at home or in a restaurant.
We can’t keep doing this. We can’t keep the country on lockdown.
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We aren’t.
 
No cigar. Your chart just show daily deaths.

Only on an accumulative chart can we see the curve flattening out on deaths.
New York began flattening out process about 5/8/2020
Sweden began the flattening out process about 6/20/2020
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I went back to your graph.
a)It us normalizing data based on population. That skews the actual data.
b)Also it is pulling population data from wikipedia.
c) It already has an agenda: (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
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Your own graph shows Sweden stable at between 6 and 7 thousand.
But new York stable at around 25000.

Looks like Sweden is better off.
 
LeafByNiggle said:
We are nowhere near “shut down”. We have certain restrictions. Most businesses are continuing with only minor modifications.
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You’re very fortunate.

This isn’t the case in my city. It’s so sad–it looks like a ghost town. Apparently 700 people have moved away since March because they lost their jobs/businesses.

Certain businesses, restaurants, retail stores (local), coffee shops–al over our city, in both the “poor” section and the “rich” section–have gone bust. It’s so very very sad–these are people who grew up here and had families, and were leaders in the community–and now they’ve moved away because they lost everything.

We were doing so well before the pandemic, with factories opening again and several factories actually running 2nd and 3rd shifts again, and the lowest unemployment rate in decades.

But now it’s gone. I feel like we live in some kind of twilight zone. All the fun events and places that make our city a pleasant place are gone.

Our skating rink has not been able to open–they’ve made several attempts, but apparently have not been able to follow through. My husband told me he stopped by the rink yesteday (Saturday)–no one was there.

This may not mean anything to you, but for our family, which has been involved with figure skating for over 35 years, and with a daughter who coaches (in another city)–it’s awful. I personally see the sport of figure skating, especially synchronized (team) skating–going back to the way it was before Peggy Fleming–a sport that is passed on in families, and doesn’t attract many new participants. Between SafeSport regulations and COVID regulations–the sport just can’t sustain itself. And no one watches on TV anymore.

This is a “Democrat” city in a “Democrat” state, and yet all over the city, people are posting anti-governor signs and accusing him of destroying our economy. Lots of “Biden for Pres.” signs, but that doesn’t mean anything–those of us who support Pres. Trump wouldn’t dare display a sign–it’s just not a safe thing to do here. (I have a little sign on my desk, and a Trump Troll that’s real cute).

Leaf, I’m probably not conveying the mood here very well, but it’s pretty bad. Really really bad. If the economy isn’t fully opened soon, this place will be a ghost town by Christmas.
 
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Why are factories closed , Peeps? Aren’t there safety protocols so that they can keep producing?
Or is there a specific order to keep them closed?
 
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Peeps said:
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LeafByNiggle:
We are nowhere near “shut down”. We have certain restrictions. Most businesses are continuing with only minor modifications.
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You’re very fortunate.

This isn’t the case in my city. It’s so sad–it looks like a ghost town. Apparently 700 people have moved away since March because they lost their jobs/businesses.
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The same thing has happened in the past when there was a downturn in various industries, like coal or autos.
It’s so very very sad–these are people who grew up here and had families, and were leaders in the community–and now they’ve moved away because they lost everything.
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We could support them until they get back on their feet. I would be in favor of that, even if it meant raising my taxes considerably.
 
graciew said:
Why are factories closed , Peeps? Aren’t they safety protocols so that they can keep producing?
Or is there a specific order to keep them closed ?
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Outbreaks–positive tests. Not that people are actually sick, but if they test positive, that’s it–the factory (or whatever the business is) is closed down.

SOME factories have adjusted–one of our local distilleries switched from brewing alcohol to making hand sanitizer–they are doing OK.

But every business relies on all the other business to keep it going. If businesses are slow, they order less “widgets” (or whatever product the factory produces), and that means less business for the factory, and that means people are laid off. And when people are laid off, the little bars and coffee shops across the street from the factory lose business, and then those places lay people off, and then those people don’t have money to spend on their usual purchases, and then THOSE businesses lay off…it’s like a cascade.
 
I see…
Yes it is like a cascade…
Sorry for your skaters too. That must be very hard on you .
Thanks and strength for you :pray:t2:
 
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Does anyone know what Sweden DID do to help manage Covid? Did they do some serious contact tracing? Did they do more testing than we did? Did they require a 14 day quarantine to anyone that tested positive?

They also have universal healthcare so anyone feeling ill or suspecting they had the virus would be much more likely to get treatment or at least a diagnosis much quicker than the US.

I’m trying to remember how they actually did respond to the virus threat…they didn’t ignore it entirely, I assume. Thanks.
 
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They basically trust their agencies. I used to follow them at the beginning, say March, April in their official websites.,both government and Health.
They didn’t ignore it, they followed recommendations based on responsibility. Kids kept going to school, adults at risk when possible stayed at home, and there were restrictions in public gatherings then to 50 people which were to be further restricted if necessary. That is what I remember because there were discussions vis a vis our such strict lockdown ( abroad where I live).
No… they didn’t ignore it, just that in my mind…they sounded more community minded. And there seemed to be a matter of trust involved in their Health Agency and recommendations for good, I mean comprared then to our distrust where I live.
I wondered then if families lived with grandparents which sounded they didn’t , so that made it easier for them. I also wondered if they depended a lot on public transport, which is an issue where I live.
I don’t remember about testing( anyway I knew they would be better than us in my country at that then).
That is what I remember , Patty
 
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Unlike most countries, which strongly recommended widespread sector closures and quarantining and lockdown measures to curb the spread of the coronavirus disease 2019, the government of Sweden took a more lenient approach, only pursuing strategies in regards to social distancing, bans on large gatherings, and travel restrictions.
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16 March 2020, the [Public Health] agency recommended that people over 70 should limit close contact with other people, and avoid crowded areas such as stores, public transport and public spaces. At the end of March, 93% of those older than 70 said that they were following the recommendations from the health service to some extent, with the majority having decreased their contacts with friends and family.
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27 March the government announced that the ban on public gatherings would be lowered to include all gatherings of more than 50 people, to further decrease the spread of the infection, again at the request of the Public Health Agency. The ban would apply to arts and entertainment events including theatre, cinema and concerts, religious meetings, demonstrations, lectures, competitive sports, amusement parks, fairs and markets. The ban did not include gatherings in schools, workplaces, public transport, grocery stores or shopping malls, health clubs or private events. […] Additionally, they recommend that digital meetings should be considered.
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LeafByNiggle . . . .
And many will be left with permanent brain damage, liver damage, and general circulatory system damage.
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Yet you have favored Government PREVENTING physicians from extending treatment to their patients if they see a reasonably efficacious treatment possibility (i.e. you have argued for OUTLAWING physicians use of hydroxychlroquine).
This is not the flu, or even very much like it.
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The flu is more deadly for kids isn’t it?

The figures underline a recent trend — while COVID-19 has largely spared children since its December outbreak in China, the flu has proven particularly devastating for kids in America this season.


As of Saturday, 36 children under 15 have died from COVID-19, about 0.03 percent of all coronavirus deaths at the time, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
The flu, another contagious respiratory illness, killed an estimated 477 people under 17 years old in the 2018 – 2019 season, according to the CDC. From 2010 to the end of the 2019 flu season, the CDC said the illness killed an average of 511 children each year.
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They aren’t following the rules!!

This isn’t the flu…you should not even mention the flu.

It may damage the narrative.
 
graciew said:
They basically trust their agencies
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I think this is probably the main reason why Sweden has done well in the battle against coronavirus–they TRUST their government, and Americans don’t.

That’s one reason there are so many protests right now–the people don’t TRUST each other and their government.

In the United States, we have always had a measure of suspicion and distrust of our federal government. We are not a democracy (as I believe Sweden is)–we are a federation of 50 sovereign states who agreed to put themselves under the authority of a central federal government as long as we are guaranteed a large measure of power and freedom within each of our states.

This was a brilliant idea! Because of the geography of the United States, every state is different! It would be ridiculous for the tiny coastal state of Massachusetts to have the same policies as the giant ranchland state of Texas! This form of government allowed our nation to be one nation, rather than many small countries (as Europe is).

I think what this system of government does is create a level distrust of our federal government, whose powers are limited by our U.S. Constitution.

When the states see the slightest bit of “power-grab” by the “feds,” we get suspicious.

The federal government, especially the Executive and Judicial branches, seems so removed from us that when pronouncements are made, we tend to say, “Oh, really? Prove it.” Or “Oh, really? This is NOT gonna fly in my state!”

Then you throw in our media, which is not really “news journalism” anymore–it’s ENTERTAINMENT. It’s a battle for ratings and popularity. The journalists are not “reporters” anymore-they are “stars” or “entertainers.”

And since “entertainment” is not “real” but Hollywood and New York “fantasy,” the lines are blurred–we’re not sure if the “news” is really truthful, or just a well-written, dramatic, disturbing, and very exciting “story” that keeps us glued to the television or to our phones.

There have always been sharp divisions in politics, so the Democratic/Republican battles in the last few years are nothing new. But when the news media takes sides (it’s so obvious!–just watching Chuck Todd’s facial expressions makes it clear that he despises anything Republican or “Trump”), it is extremely difficult for Americans to trust that we are hearing the truth about our federal government policies and people.

This is not the case in Sweden or in the Scandinavian countries, ancient civilizations that are fairly homogenous compared to the U.S. and are used to trusting each other in their harsher climate and topography and close proximity to power-hungry aggressive nations that have at times, threatened their freedom and lives.
 
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vz71 said:
Your own graph shows Sweden stable at between 6 and 7 thousand.
But new York stable at around 25000.

Looks like Sweden is better off.
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But very late in flattening the curve compared to NY.
And it looks like Sweden is still struggling with daily cases:
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And NY(19,540,000) is twice the population of Sweden (9,800,000).
 
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