Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong

[LeafByNiggle]

Immunity is thought to be looking like only a few months, studies show, and if they are accurate then the herd immunity strategy is going to fall apart.

Are you sure? All I have seen is that specific antibodies decline after the infection is past. But that does not mean there is no immunity. There is T-cell memory that persists and can quickly manufacture those antibodies when presented with another encounter with the virus. That’s the way it works with other viruses, anyway. So herd immunity is still a possibility.

(I see that Cathoholic beat me to it.)

 

[Cathoholic]

LeafByNiggle . . .

There is T-cell memory that persists and can quickly manufacture those antibodies

Your idea is right but your science is somewhat off.

T-cells do not produce antibody.
That’d be B-cells.

Memory T-cells utilize other means of immunologic memory and attack against foreign bodies.

 

[umamibella]

Are you sure?

Yes, there are no conclusive studies showing immunity lasts for an extended length of time, infact, early studies are showing it does not stick for more then a few months.

Any conjecture on herd immunity is foolhardy, scientists wont speculate, thus the need for a vaccine.

 

[umamibella]

The problem with this is, it assumes B-cell immunity is all that is taking place.

Please explain the role of T-cell immunity as at least a possible protector against corona virus,
and then we can then together explain why such “studies” that say we cannot be close to acheiving herd immunity cannot tell the whole story.

Are you working for a peer reviewed scientific journal? If so state your qualifications.

Otherwise

in your own words ’ too funny’

Look up sterile immunity and how vaccines wont give it either.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Are you sure?

Yes, there are no conclusive studies showing immunity lasts for an extended length of time, infact, early studies are showing it does not stick for more then a few months.

Any conjecture on herd immunity is foolhardy, scientists wont speculate, thus the need for a vaccine.

You are mistaking a claim that herd immunity cannot be ruled out with a claim that herd immunity is definitely doable.

Also you are wrong in saying immunity does not stick for more than a few months. All that we know for sure is that certain antibodies that are present when recovering from an infection do decline markedly after a while. But that is not proof that immunity itself is no longer present. To prove that you would have to show people who completely recovered from covid-19 and then months later contracted it again. To the best of my knowledge no such thing has ever been observed. There are people who have seemed to recover and then suffered a relapse. But that is not the same thing, because they never really fully recovered.

 

[umamibella]

You are mistaking a claim that herd immunity cannot be ruled out with a claim that herd immunity is definitely doable.

Also you are wrong in saying immunity does not stick for more than a few months. All that we know for sure is that certain antibodies that are present when recovering from an infection do decline markedly after a while. But that is not proof that immunity itself is no longer present. To prove that you would have to show people who completely recovered from covid-19 and then months later contracted it again. To the best of my knowledge no such thing has ever been observed. There are people who have seemed to recover and then suffered a relapse. But that is not the same thing, because they never really fully recovered.

Opinion opinion opinion.

‘you are mistaking’

‘you are wrong’

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Opinion opinion opinion.

‘you are mistaking’

‘you are wrong’

You are welcome to cite instances of immunity disappearing after infection. Otherwise it is just your opinion. But what I have cited in well known.

 

[Cathoholic]

umamibella . . .

Yes, there are no conclusive studies showing immunity lasts for an extended length of time, infact, early studies are showing it does not stick for more then a few months.

Any conjecture on herd immunity is foolhardy, scientists wont speculate, thus the need for a vaccine.

What makes you think that a phantom vaccine that is not even discovered yet, will yield better long-term antibody production than native infection response?

 

[Cathoholic]

umamibella . . .

Are you working for a peer reviewed scientific journal? If so state your qualifications.

I suggest you deal with the items of the thread and not me personally.

It does not concern you where I work.

If you were unaware that T-cell immunity can contribute to herd immunity differently than B-cell immunity that’s fine.

But please don’t try to deflect from the issue by attempting to focus on me.

 

[Cathoholic]

Sweden’s disease expert says just wearing face masks could be ‘very dangerous’​

By Jackie Salo

August 19, 2020 |

Sweden’s top infectious disease expert has resisted recommending face masks for the general population — arguing it’s “very dangerous” if people believe the coverings alone will stop the spread of the coronavirus.

Anders Tegnell, chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s Public Health Agency, has repeatedly expressed skepticism that face masks will control virus outbreaks, the Financial Times reported.

“It is very dangerous to believe face masks would change the game when it comes to COVID-19,” said Tengell, who is considered the country’s equivalent of Dr. Anthony Fauci from the White House COVID-19 task force.

He noted that countries with widespread mask compliance, such as Belgium and Spain, were still seeing rising virus rates. . . .

He completely brushed off the prospect of wearing masks last month, saying, “With numbers diminishing very quickly in Sweden, we see no point in wearing a face mask in Sweden, not even on public transport.”

Tegnell has argued that evidence about the effectiveness of face mask use was “astonishingly weak.” . . .

. . . Sweden has recorded at least 85,000 cases, including more than 5,800 fatalities, according to the latest figures from Johns Hopkins University.

Sweden's Tegnell: Wearing face masks may be 'very dangerous'

 

[Motherwit]

The Swedish health ‘expert’ is so far out of touch with other world health experts and a dreadful legacy in his wake that is anybody giving him any credit at all?

 

[tuffsmurf]

People in Sweden give him credit.

 

[Cathoholic]

Motherwit . . .

The Swedish health ‘expert’ is so far out of touch with other world health experts . . .

Are you aware that the World Health Oganization called Sweden a model country for Corona virus management?

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt . . .

Maybe we should listen to a ‘disease expert’ from a country that had fewer people die of COVID.

Maybe. But the late infections on countries that had severe lockdowns suggest the severe lockdowns (like Israel and The Philippines) merely did what we were told these measures would do.

Flatten the curve. Not protect from disease in an absolute sense.

Besides. This is a marathon that is just getting underway.

The immunologic protection that Sweden has accrued, will pay dividends too as we go forth.

 

[silentwitness]

The immunologic protection that Sweden has accrued, will pay dividends too as we go forth.

I think so too and for this particular virus i think Sweden, Taiwan and Japan had the better models.

Of course not all viruses are the same. Next time we might get a more deadlier and contagious disease. I think after looking at the statistics (really as early as after 2 months) the lockdowns were too severe in relation to the COVID virus and looks very much to be political.

Today where i live was the first day where we not only had to wear face masks but face shields when using public transport. I didn’t realise this and just wore the ‘usual’ face mask with a couple of people getting really uncomfortable as if i was putting their lives at risk. To me this is so silly but you comply and hope people come to their senses soon. As i have said before, the only death our state has had was a single ninety year old man 4 to 5 months ago. I think people are gradually waking up to the overblown media and political fear but many still go along with it and think we all should do as our political leaders say. That in itself can be a very dangerous mindset.

 

[vz71]

Yes, there are no conclusive studies showing immunity lasts for an extended length of time, infact, early studies are showing it does not stick for more then a few months.

If the body’s own systems cannot create an immunity, how exactly are you expecting a vaccine to work?

 

[vz71]

Maybe we should listen to a ‘disease expert’ from a country that had fewer people die of COVID.

According to Coronavirus: Which country has the least COVID-19 cases? | World | News | Express.co.uk

The Caribbean islands of Grenada, Montserrat and St Vincent Grenadines and the Oceanic country of Papua New Guinea are all tied for the least cases in the world.

I somehow doubt your logic actually holds.
Still, you are free to listen to their health experts if you wish.

 

[Motherwit]

Motherwit . . .

The Swedish health ‘expert’ is so far out of touch with other world health experts . . .

A lot of experts spoke prematurely and have had to revise that and that is the case with Dr Mike Ryan attached to WHO who spoke so hopefully in early May. Here is the latest forecasts and advice from the WHO including some words from Dr Mike Ryan in the video at the 25 minute mark.

Dr. Mike Ryan says world is "nowhere close" to herd immunity

 

[F_Marturana]

The Lancet did a study that herd immunity would not be possible without increasing substantially the amount of dead, and overwhelming the hospital systems.

 

[umamibella]

You are welcome to cite instances of immunity disappearing after infection. Otherwise it is just your opinion. But what I have cited in well known.

You are welcome to simply google the studies. Its not rocket science. Ensure you get extremely current peer reviewed studies and not sensationalist media stories.
Then you are welcome to tell those publishing and researching Covid Immunity ’ its just their opinion’

By the way You’re welcome.

If the body’s own systems cannot create an immunity, how exactly are you expecting a vaccine to work?

If we ever get an effective, efficient accurate and precise vaccine for this one. We havent for a couple of the more recent ones.
Sterile immunity is an unachievable goal according to medical experts, and the length of immunity offered by any potential vaccine is yet to be determined. This virus is going to require vaccinations like with flu shots.
A vaccine is going to have to be given early enough in a Covid season if this virus ever establishes a season, (studies are showing it is more mobile in dry atmospheric conditions) and the correct troublesome strains identified successfully.

Flu vaccines work or fail on those conditions at the moment. In 2019 they failed and the vaccine came out well after flu season was established in Aus. USA had its own issues with the vaccine. It is not a be all to end all.

The other myth is ‘flattening the curve’ . History is showing that curve explodes again if any embers are left burning. We need a better way of thinking then ‘there will be a curve, lets flatten it and all get back to surfing and the pub, or Mass’.

I suggest you deal with the items of the thread and not me personally.

It does not concern you where I work.

If you were unaware that T-cell immunity can contribute to herd immunity differently than B-cell immunity that’s fine.

But please don’t try to deflect from the issue by attempting to focus on me.

I suggest you set a better tone and not show precedence by deflecting yourself.