Loved ones in Hell

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It occured to me that everyone in Hell is someone’s Father, Mother, Brother, Sister etc.
It is worse than that: “Love your neighbour as yourself.” As a Christian, you love everyone in hell, not just your friends and relatives.
How do we attain complete happiness in Heaven knowing our loved one is in Hell?
We don’t. There is suffering in both the heavens and the hells.
Do you suppose God might take the memory of them away?
If you lost your memories, then you would no longer be you. A different person would be in heaven from the person who lived on earth.

rossum
 
First there was no sacrifice. He died on the cross and he has a better life in heaven. Could you tell me what sacrifice is done?
While I have absolutely no doubt that dying on a cross is entirely worth it if heaven is the reward, are you honestly trying to suggest that there was no suffering involved? Jesus didn’t have to die a painful and humiliating death, but He did out of love. I don’t understand how that could be anything other than a sacrifice.
Second, sacrificing your life for sins of other is a nonsense story. Sacrifice is meaningless if it is done to clean your sins since a sin if you really believe on it comes with self-shame and nothing can clean this from your mind. The story of Adam and Eve which is the source of original sin also is problematic if you think through.
I admit I really don’t know what you mean here, perhaps you could clarify? Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins, and if we unite ourselves to Him in that sacrifice we can be redeemed through it. As for shame, yes of course I feel shame for my past sins, but I’ve been forgiven them through Jesus’ sacrifice.
Third, how God/Jesus could die? Apparently, Father, Jesus and holy spirit are same.
Well they’re all made of the same divine essence, but they’re three distinct persons. Jesus, that is, the Son, took on a human nature and was then able to die as we do.
Forth, who resurrected Jesus/God if God is already dead?
From one of the Gospels : "because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. “No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.” ie. Jesus resurrects Himself, because He has power over death.
First, there is no guarantee to have sinless life if you have free will even if you are in Heaven. Satan is an example hence the promise given about a life without anxiety about good and evil is false.
Satan and the devils made a choice in eternity to reject God, and hence they are eternally damned. We live in time and over time we make our decision to accept or reject God. Whichever we make by the end of our life will be our decision in eternity - if a person has freely made the decision to accept God’s will and to love Him, then being in heaven and forever united to God in eternity, I doubt sinning will be something that even enters their mind. Or to put it as the Bible does, “nothing unclean may enter it” (that is, the Kingdom of heaven).
Second, why separate people in different places? Yes God and heaven are holy and sinful people cannot be in presence of God. Then how so God came to earth, an unholy place full of sinful people?
Heaven is more of a ‘direct’ presence of God than Jesus’ ministry on earth was. You may or may not recall the transfiguration, where Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah, and the apostles saw Him in a greater degree of his divine glory. The point is Jesus, while on earth, kept His divinity somewhat ‘under wraps’, and only revealed it to a certain degree. I don’t doubt if the people at the time had seen Him in His full divinity, they probably would have died.
 
I have to agree with Rossum.

If I find myself in Heaven and my loved ones are not there, then it’s not going to be Heaven for me.

If I find myself in Heaven without my memories of or love for those loved ones, then it’s not me that’s in Heaven.

Either way I would want my money back.
 
God says of those in Heaven:

‘They are conformed so entirely to My will, that they cannot desire except what I desire, because their free-will is bound in the bond of love, in such a way that, time failing them, and, dying in a state of grace, they cannot sin any more. And their will is so united with Mine, that a father or a mother seeing their son, or a son seeing his father or his mother in Hell, do not trouble themselves, and even are contented to see them punished as My enemies. Wherefore in nothing do they disagree with Me, and their desires are all satisfied. The desire of the blessed is to see My honor in you wayfarers, who are pilgrims, forever running on towards the term of death. In their desire for My honor, they desire your salvation, and always pray to Me for you, which desire is fulfilled by Me, when you ignorant ones do not resist My mercy.’

God, to St. Catherine of Siena, ‘The Dialogue of the Seraphic Virgin’

We should love all good things for the sake of the one who is their source – without which they cannot be. Truly there is nothing good but God.

And we should pray for our relatives and try to bring them to God, that is love of our neighbor for His sake.
 
I have to agree with Rossum.

If I find myself in Heaven and my loved ones are not there, then it’s not going to be Heaven for me.

If I find myself in Heaven without my memories of or love for those loved ones, then it’s not me that’s in Heaven.

Either way I would want my money back.
Do you really have a friend or family member who is so into himself that he’d deny God once he is confronted by God?

I have an atheist friend, and others who believe in God but don’t practice their religion. I cannot imagine them denying God once they are confronted. I’m pretty sure they’ll be spending some time in Purgatory along with me.
 
It’s not a question of being negative…Jesus, Himself speaks of lost sinners such as the rich man in eternal torment while Lazarus, the beggar was in the bosom of Abraham.

The Bible doesn’t say everyone will eventually be forgiven & be in heaven. Even though God is Merciful.
Everyone is forgiven but not everyone wants to be forgiven! Even so, for God all things are possible. He doesn’t write anyone off. Neither should we…

Jesus didn’t say Dives is in eternal torment. He may have been in Purgatory. Being rich is not in itself a sufficient reason to be damned.
 
Do you really have a friend or family member who is so into himself that he’d deny God once he is confronted by God?

I have an atheist friend, and others who believe in God but don’t practice their religion. I cannot imagine them denying God once they are confronted. I’m pretty sure they’ll be spending some time in Purgatory along with me.
👍 It is certainly not for us to decide who is in Hell.
 
Everyone is forgiven but not everyone wants to be forgiven! Even so, for God all things are possible. He doesn’t write anyone off. Neither should we…

Jesus didn’t say Dives is in eternal torment. He may have been in Purgatory. Being rich is not in itself a sufficient reason to be damned.
My bible says the rich man was in hell…never-the-less, it wasn’t because he was rich but because he didn’t even give Lazarus the scraps of food from his table. :tsktsk:
 
Heaven is a place of love.

It would seem to me you won’t find a relative in heaven if the person did not love you. I don’t believe it is possible for us to assess this; God knows.
This is a hard one to take since we always want love to be a reciprocal relationship.
This is an obvious reality in this world. Some hope that in heaven what was not actualized in life will be so after both parties are dead.
 
My bible says the rich man was in hell…never-the-less, it wasn’t because he was rich but because he didn’t even give Lazarus the scraps of food from his table. :tsktsk:
Jesus used the term Hades:
The term “Hades” in Christian theology (and in New Testament Greek) is parallel to Hebrew sheol (שאול, “grave, dirt-pit”), and refers to the abode of the dead. The Christian concept of hell is more akin to and communicated by the Greek concept of Tartarus, a deep, gloomy part of Hades used as a dungeon of torment and suffering.
  • wikipedia
Orthodox Catholics believe in Purgatory as well as Hell.
 
Heaven is a place of love.

It would seem to me you won’t find a relative in heaven if the person did not love you. I don’t believe it is possible for us to assess this; God knows.
This is a hard one to take since we always want love to be a reciprocal relationship.
This is an obvious reality in this world. Some hope that in heaven what was not actualized in life will be so after both parties are dead.
👍 It is impossible to co-exist in harmony with those who reject us.
 
Shin said:
“They are conformed so entirely to My will, that they cannot desire except what I desire, because their free-will is bound in the bond of love, . . . And their will is so united with Mine, that a father or a mother seeing their son, or a son seeing his father or his mother in Hell, do not trouble themselves, and even are contented to see them punished as My enemies.”

This is quite chilling. It sounds like being absorbed into the Borg collective. If my free-will is bound to any other, then it won’t be me. At least, not any sort of me that I would recognise. This makes me want no part of it.
 
This is quite chilling. It sounds like being absorbed into the Borg collective. If my free-will is bound to any other, then it won’t be me. At least, not any sort of me that I would recognise. This makes me want no part of it.
So you and your free will would rather spend eternity in hell being tormented than be in heaven with God? :confused:

I’m thinking that this is what Adam and Eve with their free wills did that got us into this mess.:slapfight:

And once again, do you really think your kids or any family member is so stupid not to accept God once confronted by HIM? You don’t see the kid totally blissful being surrounded by LOVE? God and all his family are there rooting for him and he balks, “Oh no. I’ll lose my free will. We want to go into the dark pits of hell and get chased by demons. My free will is such a treasure.” :eek: So be it.
 
So you and your free will would rather spend eternity in hell being tormented than be in heaven with God? :confused:

I’m thinking that this is what Adam and Eve with their free wills did that got us into this mess.:slapfight:

And once again, do you really think your kids or any family member is so stupid not to accept God once confronted by HIM? You don’t see the kid totally blissful being surrounded by LOVE? God and all his family are there rooting for him and he balks, “Oh no. I’ll lose my free will. We want to go into the dark pits of hell and get chased by demons. My free will is such a treasure.” :eek: So be it.
Isn’t the main defense against the Problem of Evil that “Free will is such a treasure” that vast amounts of evil have to be allowed for the sake of this treasure?
 
The epic Sanskrit tale, Mahabarat ends with the protagonist in heaven, after a long war which decimated both sides. Who does he find there but the enemies he spent a life time battling. They were all happy to greet him. They had fallen on sacred ground (the equivalent of asking God for His forgiveness upon their deaths). His family, those whom he loved, on the other hand were in hell for their sins. He was a very holy man himself. Now even though there is reincarnation in that world view, it has to be remembered that everything ends. Something new is said to emerge, but the game finished right there; he lost everything, and his enemies won all, This was not right and he thought it better to be in hell. At this point came the realization that it was all illusion in the face of the Truth, which is Love. What was real was the love he had for friends and family and which he withheld from those he was now meeting in heaven. At that point, he saw before him the entire universe, with its cycles of life and death, at the Centre of which exists the infinite Compassion which brings and keeps creation into existence. Knowing Love, he became one with God.
 
Do you really have a friend or family member who is so into himself that he’d deny God once he is confronted by God?

I have an atheist friend, and others who believe in God but don’t practice their religion. I cannot imagine them denying God once they are confronted. I’m pretty sure they’ll be spending some time in Purgatory along with me.
I’ve stated ad infinitum that the night my own father died, he appeared in my bedroom in the flat where I was living.

While we talked and argued, it was obvious that most of his attention was on something I couldn’t see as he was either looking over my head with an expression of awe, or he was trying hid his face behind his hands as though he didn’t want to see what was being displayed. I think he was either looking at the Godhead when he had the expression of awe, and seeing the less savoury aspects of his life when he couldn’t bear to watch what he was seeing. That’s my take anyway.

I only saw him.

At the very end he turned to his right (my left) and it was very clear something else was coming for him which terrified him to the core, as he screamed in absolute terror. Then he disappeared.

So I suppose he qualified as a “loved one” who went to Hell. As far as I’m concerned he did, and I still remember the sheer terror just before he disappeared.

However I hated his guts by that time, as I’d experienced 20 years of pretty much unrelenting, deliberate cruelty at his hands, mostly verbal humiliation, but it just went on and on and on.

To give one example - somehow I managed to get 4 x 7’s and 4 x 6’s in my year 10 exam, which was eqivalent to 8A’s in the old system.

HIs fatherly response?

“You’re not getting away with this!! I’ll makes sure you don’t succeed!! You’re not showing me up!!” Then he stormed off.

And that was typical of the sort of exchange I put up with for 20 years - 24 years really, except that I wasn’t around much for the last 4 years of his life.

So he didn’t really qualify as a “loved one”. More of a “despised one”.

However my mother didn’t go to church either, but she was the glue which kept the family together. She was basically a good person, but she walked away from the (Anglican) church a long time ago. I suspect suffering had a bit to do with her abandonment of formal religion - lost an older brother at two, a younger sister when she was about nineteen; I think a boy friend went down on the HMAS Sydney, and then she married my mongrel of a father, and put up with his cruelty for 24 years. After all that I think she thought God’s love wasn’t all that it was cracked up to be. So she walked away from the (Anglican) church, and never went back, other than weddings, funerals and so on.

I sometimes wonder where she is.

But at one stage in the exchange with my father on the night he died, he exclaimed “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!”

I argued back, saying “That can’t be right!” I was an atheist at the time too.

He replied, “Oh, it’s right all right, you can see that from here.”

And later in the conversation he admitted “I was WILLING!” (to act in the way he did, and keep acting that way).

So I don’t know how we’ll come to grips with this issue. I suppose we’ll find “it’s right all right. You can see that from here” when we front up for our own judgement.

It’s a tough one, and I don’t see much point in worrying about it, because there’s not much you can do about it.

So I don’t spend too much time thinking about it. Even Christ could be a bit cavalier at times about the lost despite His love. When one would be follower requested he be allowed to bury his father first, he got back the somewhat blunt reply “… let the dead bury the dead”. “If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch”.

To the Pharisees - “Blind guides! How can you hope to escape being condemned to Hell?”

I think we’ll have to wait till we’re in front of the judgement seat ourselves before we have the answers to a lot of these questions. In the meantime we “see through a glass darkly”.
 
These days one hears a lot about near-death experiences where people are brought back from the brink of death. Even before all these miracles of modern medicine, there were sayings like, “My whole life flashed in front of me.” So, although a person may seem completely gone, showing no vital signs, something is still going on before they pass. I believe that many are saved in these last moments when the soul sees itself, in the face of the pure Love that is God, and can honestly say sorry. Some may not. We therefore pray for all souls, as all who are not in hell pray for us.
 
It’s not a question of being negative…Jesus, Himself speaks of lost sinners such as the rich man in eternal torment while Lazarus, the beggar was in the bosom of Abraham.

The Bible doesn’t say everyone will eventually be forgiven & be in heaven. Even though God is Merciful.
Some even say that God is INFINITELY Merciful.

Makes one wonder what some think INFINITELY means!
 
👍 It is impossible to co-exist in harmony with those who reject us.
Didn’t Jesus reportedly say, “With God ALL things are possible”?

Who knows, maybe God can do things that we think that God is incapable of doing!
 
Some even say that God is INFINITELY Merciful.

Makes one wonder what some think INFINITELY means!
Forgiveness is a two-way street. God will forgive anything, but you have to accept that forgiveness too.
 
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