Loved ones in Hell

[oldcelt]

Not if they know they are rejected and hated by their loved ones. Happiness in heaven is not based on fantasy but fact…

Obviously Tony, you are prepared to present those “facts.” What might they be that would be acceptable to people who do not share your belief system?
I will answer the question…there are no facts…only your faith.

 

[Trekker47]

Do you think/believe that the “Power of God” and the power of evil are equal?

Seeing as we are ALL “made in the Image and Likeness of God” than at least this would still be there, don’t you think?

Are you saying that those in heaven should be selfish with their happiness or that their lot is that they have to be selfish with their happiness?

Of course I don’t think good and evil are equal, that would be very unchristian of me. I don’t think being made in the image and likeness of God is a good thing though if you’ve chosen to separate yourself from Him, it would just mean that you’d be even worse corrupted (the better something is, the worse it is when it rebels). I know it’s been suggested that the ‘image and likeness’ refers to having reason and a soul, and simply having those things, especially if you wasted and corrupted them, doesn’t seem like enough reason not to be damned.
As to your second point…heaven is like, the least selfish happiness you could possibly have, it’s happiness in God. If someone’s tried to do good and love God all their life and to love their fellows, and finally having died they find they merit heaven and happiness, it’s a bit ‘off’ to suggest that their happiness is selfish because someone else who spent their time on earth disdaining others, actually being selfish, and generally refusing God’s forgiveness and love is now suffering on account of that, and there isn’t even anything left in them to love.

 

[tonyrey]

Obviously Tony, you are prepared to present those “facts.” What might they be that would be acceptable to people who do not share your belief system?
I will answer the question…there are no facts…only your faith.

1. Is the distinction between good and evil a fact or an illusion?
2. Is it a fact that love bring greater happiness than indifference or animosity?
3. Is it a fact that this life is the only life?
4. Is it a fact that we exist and can choose what to believe?
5. Is it a fact that we exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever?

BTW I was responding to the statement:

Anyone who can be happy in heaven knowing they have loved ones who are suffering for eternity are what we humans call sociopaths.

• which assumes heaven exists!

 

[tonyrey]

I wouldn’t waste a great deal of time on this concern…seriously.

What isn’t a waste of time, John?

 

[Winterwolf00]

Remember the parable of the sheep and the goats? Looking after other people and trying to do good is a large part of where you choose to love God, even if you didn’t know he existed. If, on the other hand, you choose to ignore the suffering of others or to be entirely focused on yourself…you can probably see where that’s going. We have everything we need to make an informed decision in our conscience.

So doing good is all that’s required?
Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Trekker47]

So doing good is all that’s required?
Thanks for clarifying that.

I assume at this point you’re twisting my words for the sake of arguing.
I said that if for some reason you removed God from the equation, perhaps because you live in a society where gods are no better than people morally and not really something to be loved (for instance ancient Rome), or you honestly came by the belief that there was no God, then the very minimum you have as a standard to work off is your conscience. That was to dispute your claim that ‘ignorance’ would be a reason not to go hell.
I did say ‘honestly’ though because simply choosing to ignore whatever evidence is given to you and stubbornly refusing the existence of God doesn’t really cut it. I don’t doubt there are people who do that, but I also imagine that there are undoubtedly some who for one reason or another really believe atheism is right.
We’d say that by faith and good works a person is saved, but obviously that can’t apply to people who didn’t have the chance to have faith. I guess basically it’s “to whom more is given, more is expected”; if you’re capable of believing in God then you’d be expected to be good but also holy.
This is all a bit off topic anyway though.

 

[rinnie]

It occured to me that everyone in Hell is someone’s Father, Mother, Brother, Sister etc. How do we attain complete happiness in Heaven knowing our loved one is in Hell? Do you suppose God might take the memory of them away?

I’m sure it’s a mystery but I was wondering if anyone knew of a church Father or Theologian that had perhaps expounded upon this topic/issue?

I’m sure loving God completely…and loving His justice we would see it as righteous and have no difficulties in there condemnation. We can’t love them more than God loved them. I’m thinking that as His love ends for them, who is the source of all love; our love would end for them too.

Any thoughts?

Heaven is a complete mystery. All we know is that we CAN and WILL attain complete happiness in heaven.

 

[oldcelt]

1. Is the distinction between good and evil a fact or an illusion?
2. Is it a fact that love bring greater happiness than indifference or animosity?
3. Is it a fact that this life is the only life?
4. Is it a fact that we exist and can choose what to believe?
5. Is it a fact that we exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever?

BTW I was responding to the statement:

• which assumes heaven exists!

I agree with the first four. We exist because of the (hopefully) love of two humans. Our purpose is to try to make this world better for those who follow. None of which assumes a heaven or a hell. Short of some type of dream state upon death, I don’t see any continuance beyond our personal end…and it certainly is not factual…it is unprovable in either direction.

 

[tonyrey]

1. Is the distinction between good and evil a fact or an illusion?
2. Is it a fact that love bring greater happiness than indifference or animosity?
3. Is it a fact that this life is the only life?
4. Is it a fact that we exist and can choose what to believe?
5. Is it a fact that we exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever?

I’m delighted you have some positive beliefs! But you haven’t explained your view on whether we exist for a reason or purpose. If we can choose what to believe surely we can choose how to act?

 

[oldcelt]

I’m delighted you have some positive beliefs! But you haven’t explained your view on whether we exist for a reason or purpose. If we can choose what to believe surely we can choose how to act?

I believe that I state clearly that our purpose is to work toward a better world for those to come. What more purpose do you need?

 

[Winterwolf00]

1. Is the distinction between good and evil a fact or an illusion?
2. Is it a fact that love bring greater happiness than indifference or animosity?
3. Is it a fact that this life is the only life?
4. Is it a fact that we exist and can choose what to believe?
5. Is it a fact that we exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever?

BTW I was responding to the statement:

• which assumes heaven exists!

Not one of the questions is relevant to your claims.
It seems more like dodging the request for proof.

 

[truetofaith]

I believe that I state clearly that our purpose is to work toward a better world for those to come. What more purpose do you need?

In the First Grade I learned from the Catechism : “God made me to know Him, love Him and to serve Him” (…and to live with Him forever in heaven.)

 

[Winterwolf00]

In the First Grade I learned from the Catechism : “God made me to know Him, love Him and to serve Him” (…and to live with Him forever in heaven.)

Between the 2 the first is far more respectable in my eyes.

 

[truetofaith]

Between the 2 the first is far more respectable in my eyes.

Well, once you get to know the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross for us, you can’t help but love Him for it, and want to serve Him…therefore attaining eternity in heaven with Him.

 

[truetofaith]

Number 1. Believing in an after-life does not necessarily require a belief in a god.
But no I myself believe in neither.
Still don’t see where the ‘what if’ is.

Number 2. I don’t believe that there is such a thing as ‘paradise’ or ‘utopia’ except within our dreams, if however you mean something along the lines of an ideal society I’d say a futuristic society that values freedom, democracy, and egalitarianism.
Very Star Trek-ish basically.

Number 3. I do not speak for all atheists, no atheist speaks for all atheists.
My idea of an ideal place is likely very different then either Ayn Rand’s or Stalin’s.

So there is no such thing as a single atheists idea of ‘paradise’.

'Paradise for atheists, I guess, would be the end of pain & suffering in this life & no more awareness of anything.
What’s scary is …if there is a God & you didn’t give Him a fair consideration & reject Him, there is that place of torment. uch:

 

[oldcelt]

In the First Grade I learned from the Catechism : “God made me to know Him, love Him and to serve Him” (…and to live with Him forever in heaven.)

I respect your belief…I simply no longer share it. One question, Why would an omnipotent being need us to serve Him? Or worship Him? Sounds a bit narcissistic to me.
However, as a Deist I do thank god for his creation. Does he hear? Who knows, but it is something I do.

 

[Nixbits]

truetofaith:

if there is a God & you didn’t give Him a fair consideration & reject Him, there is that place of torment.

There it is! Pascal’s Wager again.

“What if you atheists are wrong and we Catholics are right?” But what if the Jews are right? What if the Muslims are right? What if the Buddhists are right? What if the Hindus, Jains, or Zoroastrians are right? What if the Christian God does exist but only those that use their God-given intelligence to be sceptical get to go to heaven? It’s an often-repeated but discredited argument.

 

[truetofaith]

I respect your belief…I simply no longer share it.

I’m sorry that you don’t…someday we’ll know the truth…I pray for us both, that we are following the right paths!

 

[truetofaith]

I respect your belief…I simply no longer share it. One question, Why would an omnipotent being need us to serve Him? Or worship Him? Sounds a bit narcissistic to me.
However, as a Deist I do thank god for his creation. Does he hear? Who knows, but it is something I do.

God didn’t need anyone or anything…He created the universe & us out of love …and saved sinful mankind, through His loving sacrifice on the cross. Worship & service is the least we can do, in appreciation.

 

[tonyrey]

*1. Is the distinction between good and evil a fact or an illusion?
2. Is it a fact that love bring greater happiness than indifference or animosity?
3. Is it a fact that this life is the only life?
4. Is it a fact that we exist and can choose what to believe?
5. Is it a fact that we exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever?

You need to justify your assertions. Otherwise they are valueless. You also need to answer the questions if your post is to be relevant.