Loved ones in Hell

[Trekker47]

I respect your belief…I simply no longer share it. One question, Why would an omnipotent being need us to serve Him? Or worship Him? Sounds a bit narcissistic to me.
However, as a Deist I do thank god for his creation. Does he hear? Who knows, but it is something I do.

Look at it the other way round, if we’re able to love and worship God, and many saints have had a very loving relationship with Him, then there must be a reason for that. To be able to love your creator and yet to not do so seems somehow wrong to me. While I agree with you that God almost certainly doesn’t ‘need’ anything apart from Himself, He loves us and since it’s fitting that we love Him back (seeing as we have the ability), He may very well have created in Himself a kind of artificial ‘need’ (in the loosest sense of the term) to be loved by us so that we might have a purpose. I can at least say that if God created so many people, they all must be different and able to love/worship Him in some way unique to them. If you ask me, people are happiest when they love and worship God, so it’s a service to us that He lets us do that, even an act of love.

So on the one hand it’s more an act of humility than of narcissism, and on the other, how could God be narcissistic anyway? We’re too used to thinking of humans in that we, as humans, never have any right to be worshipped or given such a high degree of glory, but God as the creator of the universe IS the source and holder of all glory. Every human being at times feels the need to worship, and the only fitting object of that is God.

 

[Winterwolf00]

Well, once you get to know the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross for us, you can’t help but love Him for it, and want to serve Him…therefore attaining eternity in heaven with Him.

Spartucus was crucified for longer then Jesus was and didn’t get to rule in Heaven afterwards so I’d say his sacrifice was greater.

Real human beings have historically suffered more then Jesus did in 3 days.

 

[Trekker47]

Spartucus was crucified for longer then Jesus was and didn’t get to rule in Heaven afterwards so I’d say his sacrifice was greater.

Real human beings have historically suffered more then Jesus did in 3 days.

1. Jesus didn’t have to die at all, He was completely innocent of any crime, didn’t even have to come to earth, could at any moment have called on armies of angels to come to his aid. Despite all this he still went through with it.
2. Spartacus didn’t have a crown of thorns, nor was he scourged at the pillar if memory serves me right.
3. I believe Jesus told one of the saints while talking about his passion, that the greater pain was his sorrow at every sin that had ever been committed, which is a hurt none of us have experienced. Also, Jesus was mocked and reviled by the very people he was dying for.

I doubt any human being has suffered as much as Jesus has as a result of our sins, and certainly every human who has ever suffered (with the exception of Mary) is guilty of sin in one way or another.

 

[Winterwolf00]

1. Jesus didn’t have to die at all, He was completely innocent of any crime, didn’t even have to come to earth, could at any moment have called on armies of angels to come to his aid. Despite all this he still went through with it.
2. Spartacus didn’t have a crown of thorns, nor was he scourged at the pillar if memory serves me right.
3. I believe Jesus told one of the saints while talking about his passion, that the greater pain was his sorrow at every sin that had ever been committed, which is a hurt none of us have experienced. Also, Jesus was mocked and reviled by the very people he was dying for.

**I doubt any human being has suffered as much as Jesus has **as a result of our sins, and certainly every human who has ever suffered (with the exception of Mary) is guilty of sin in one way or another.

Then you clearly know little in the way of world history.

 

[Winterwolf00]

**You need to justify your assertions. **Otherwise they are valueless. You also need to answer the questions if your post is to be relevant.

What assertion?
And how can you tell me I need to justify assertions I haven’t made and yet you have yet to justify the ones you have?

 

[Trekker47]

Then you clearly know little in the way of world history.

Well yes there is quite a lot of history I don’t know, but I do know a decent amount, weird ad hominem you’ve got going there. In any event you misunderstood my meaning (it wasn’t phrased particularly well so I guess it’s ok), I meant the indescribable sorrow an omniscient being (ie. God) would feel at each and every sin against Him, which no human suffering could match. I didn’t mean Jesus endured more physical pain than anyone else ever.

 

[Aloysium]

We all suffer and die.
“Life” gives everything we have and will take it all away.
We do with what life gives us, what we will. We have free will to construct our lives in whatever manner we choose, with what little or much we are given.

As beings who exist in an eternal now, we live our lives, suffer and die in time.

During our lives we can give back to God what He has given us, or we can use it for our own ends.
We give back to God what He has given us, by doing His will.
His will is that we love each other. We are each to share what has been given to us.
Giving in this manner, what is returned is greater - love, the treassure that exists eternally in heaven.
If we keep it all for ourselves, for honour, for riches, for power, it will all be lost in the end, because we all die.
What is stored in heaven is in the form of love, which is truth, which is beauty and is ultimately life, is eternal.
Like the talents in the parable, it will all be returned to us.

As in the other parable about the workers in the field, you can join in even in the last moment.
Where there is love, there is heaven, Jesus’ sacrifice has made it so that our sins have been forgiven.
What love there is in us, that love that says “sorry” for our transgressions, will lift us to paradise.

 

[Winterwolf00]

'Paradise for atheists, I guess, would be the end of pain & suffering in this life & no more awareness of anything.
What’s scary is …if there is a God & you didn’t give Him a fair consideration & reject Him, there is that place of torment. uch:

As was already said, atheists have very diverse world views, trying to lump them together is an exercise in futility.

there is that place of torment

I find threats or blackmail unimpressive.

 

[truetofaith]

As was already said, atheists have very diverse world views, trying to lump them together is an exercise in futility.

I find threats or blackmail unimpressive.

Just trying to give my take on an atheist’s paradise.

No threat…just saying what the bible states will happen if the free gift of salvation is rejected.

 

[oldcelt]

I’m sorry that you don’t…someday we’ll know the truth…I pray for us both, that we are following the right paths!

And the possibility exists that we both are.

 

[tonyrey]

What assertion?
And how can you tell me I need to justify assertions I haven’t made and yet you have yet to justify the ones you have?

1. You assert that “Anyone who can be happy in heaven knowing they have loved ones who are suffering for eternity are what we humans call sociopaths” yet if they know their loved ones are utterly selfish, reject them and everyone else into the bargain their love for them disappears because they realise their love is futile and unrealistic.
2. You assert that “Not one of the questions is relevant to your claims” without giving any reason for that assertion. You think your negativity makes your position invulnerable but negativity has positive implications. Attacks imply a basis from which they are launched…

 

[aicirt]

I respect your belief…I simply no longer share it. One question, Why would an omnipotent being need us to serve Him? Or worship Him? Sounds a bit narcissistic to me.
However, as a Deist I do thank god for his creation. Does he hear? Who knows, but it is something I do.

My understanding is a Deist believes there’s a god that created the universe but then went away not interested in what humans do here. So what was his purpose of bothering to create?

You’re thanking a god that doesn’t want to be bothered yet you find that his creation is such that it is worthy of thanks. Why would he put so much effort into it that it would cause you to give thanks?

 

[aicirt]

Spartucus was crucified for longer then Jesus was and didn’t get to rule in Heaven afterwards so I’d say his sacrifice was greater.

Real human beings have historically suffered more then Jesus did in 3 days.

What choice did Spartucus have? He was a prisoner. He and all his other followers were crucified in order to terrify the other slaves so they would not revolt.

Christ had a choice. He could have come down off the cross but didn’t. His purpose was to die so He could resurrect thus proving to us that there was life after death. The shock and awe experienced led to many conversions with others dying for Christ. And so the Church was born on the blood of the martyrs.

 

[Amandil]

What choice did Spartucus have? He was a prisoner. He and all his other followers were crucified in order to terrify the other slaves so they would not revolt.

Christ had a choice. He could have come down off the cross but didn’t. His purpose was to die so He could resurrect thus proving to us that there was life after death. The shock and awe experienced led to many conversions with others dying for Christ. And so the Church was born on the blood of the martyrs.

Two other things:1) Jesus was a perfectly good and innocent man and

1. Jesus was also the Son of God.

Deicide is a tad more serious than capital punishment.

 

[oldcelt]

My understanding is a Deist believes there’s a god that created the universe but then went away not interested in what humans do here. So what was his purpose of bothering to create?

You’re thanking a god that doesn’t want to be bothered yet you find that his creation is such that it is worthy of thanks. Why would he put so much effort into it that it would cause you to give thanks?

Actually, many Deists believe that creation is an ongoing process and that no intervention by god is necessary here. I thank him for the creation that allowed humanity to develop and thrive. Life is a wonderful thing…even without a deity ordaining it.

 

[Faxero]

Spartucus was crucified for longer then Jesus was and didn’t get to rule in Heaven afterwards so I’d say his sacrifice was greater.

Real human beings have historically suffered more then Jesus did in 3 days.

Even though Christ is currently at the father’s right hand in Heaven, the pains of his crucifixion, which resulted out of divine sorrow, will never really go away.

He ascended into Heaven with his wounds intact. Even after the glorious resurrection, they didn’t disappear. (Doubting Thomas)


Ah, and Christ suffered much longer than a few hours. Since he had a human nature, he would indeed feel human pains. In the years he lived among us, he felt temperature changes, hunger, and the effects of sin. These pains would have started right at his birth. Crying for milk, etc.

 

[tonyrey]

Actually, many Deists believe that creation is an ongoing process and that no intervention by god is necessary here. I thank him for the creation that allowed humanity to develop and thrive. Life is a wonderful thing…even without a deity ordaining it.

An important correction, John: “I thank God for the creation that is allowing humanity to develop and thrive.” Ongoing creation amounts to constant intervention. It amounts to believing God knows what He is doing and is directly responsible for everything that is occurring now. Otherwise there would be no point in thanking Him…

 

[aicirt]

Actually, many Deists believe that creation is an ongoing process and that no intervention by god is necessary here. I thank him for the creation that allowed humanity to develop and thrive. Life is a wonderful thing…even without a deity ordaining it.

If you are thanking Him for allowing humanity to develop and thrive, aren’t you conceding that He has some (name removed by moderator)ut in that process?

How would there be life without there being a supreme being? I’m not against evolution but the idea that a one cell creature desides to make itself eventually into a multi-cell being seems unrealistic considering the size of or lack of a brain. And would any brain be the engine of that development?

The wonder of life is the acknowlegement of order over chaos. Order is achieved by the implication of formulas so chaos is avoided. Something is directing the traffic.

 

[Leo2014]

I respect your belief…I simply no longer share it. One question, Why would an omnipotent being need us to serve Him? Or worship Him? Sounds a bit narcissistic to me.

Narcissistic? I would think that anyone that believes that love is all encompassing as to do as we wish and have no ramification for our actions is narcissistic? Where did this concept ever come from? Even Darwinians believe in survival of the fittest. What does this statement say about the poor animals that are friendly and do no harm to other animals? The result; they are going to see their demise at the hands of the stronger life forms!

Love…I guess because it gives us that “warm-fuzzy” feeling, we feel that it should never do us any wrong. How many of you have ever been in a relationship? Don’t we surrender our feelings? Don’t we follow “rules of engagement” in order to maintain a happy relationship?

Life has many crossroads and choices. Yes, unfortunately if we make wrong choice there will be consequences. If we want to become good at a particular craft, we are going to have to surrender ourselves to dedication in order to perfect the required skills. You never heard of the expression; “there is no free lunch!”

I hope some of this makes sense? If so, than why is God suppose to be the contradiction to His own guidelines. Only a narcissist would see any sense in that reasoning…

 

[oldcelt]

If you are thanking Him for allowing humanity to develop and thrive, aren’t you conceding that He has some (name removed by moderator)ut in that process?

How would there be life without there being a supreme being? I’m not against evolution but the idea that a one cell creature desides to make itself eventually into a multi-cell being seems unrealistic considering the size of or lack of a brain. And would any brain be the engine of that development?

The wonder of life is the acknowlegement of order over chaos. Order is achieved by the implication of formulas so chaos is avoided. Something is directing the traffic.

Had…in the early creation…not specifically in my creation. I’m reminded of some Pink Floyd lyrics …“and no one knows the wheres or whys…but something stirs and something tries and starts to climb toward the light”.
So far as single cell organisms developing without a brain…we are all proof that it happens everyday.