Male modesty?

[a_priori]

At some point men and women come together and exchange desired goods

Ah, the art of the deal. Just as God intended.

 

[John21652]

I’m just telling you what is attractive to women. We want men who are strong providers, who do things for us, and who don’t attempt to restrict us in any way. It’s just the way it is.

Sometimes, spouses have to restrict what the other is doing. No, I’m not talking about career aspirations and things like that. Instances that come to mind are spending on the credit card, gambling, drinking, flirting, where money is spent in general. There needs to be compromises. In other words, spouses need to keep each other on the narrow path of sobriety and propriety, otherwise the union is doomed. Seems to me that to suggest that wanting a man who wont restrict you in any way is rather idealistic.

Just like I’m sure you could tell me what men want.

It’s very hard to generalise about what men want. The same basic things that women want probably. friendship, love, loyalty, fidelity, security, etc, etc. Who they choose is a very subjective thing and how a couple live is a shared concept.

At some point men and women come together and exchange desired goods

“Hi, my name’s John Galt…”

 

[whatevergirl]

John–a man doesn’t have to restrict a woman to get his point across, and vice versa. I think it’s called communicating…and respecting each other. Restriction sounds like something a parent does to his/her child. Just sayin’.

 

[flyingfish]

Sometimes, spouses have to restrict what the other is doing. No, I’m not talking about career aspirations and things like that. Instances that come to mind are spending on the credit card, gambling, drinking, flirting, where money is spent in general. There needs to be compromises. In other words, spouses need to keep each other on the narrow path of sobriety and propriety, otherwise the union is doomed. Seems to me that to suggest that wanting a man who wont restrict you in any way is rather idealistic.

To be honest this is not how I approach relationships. I would not dream of telling any adult what they can and can’t do, I would observe how they live their lives and decide if I want to be in a relationship with them.

I would certainly discuss how I feel about gambling, drinking, and flirting. But I would not say “do this” or “don’t do that”. If their behavior didn’t suit me, I would leave and find someone else.

In many ways it’s just a difference in attitude, and if the guy wanted to stay with me he would obviously be restricted in his behavior. But I would be controlling my own behavior (i.e. staying with him or not) rather than attempting to control his.

 

[chevalier]

Sometimes, spouses have to restrict what the other is doing. No, I’m not talking about career aspirations and things like that. Instances that come to mind are spending on the credit card, gambling, drinking, flirting, where money is spent in general. There needs to be compromises. In other words, spouses need to keep each other on the narrow path of sobriety and propriety, otherwise the union is doomed. Seems to me that to suggest that wanting a man who wont restrict you in any way is rather idealistic.

I have or used to have this kind of attitude that I wouldn’t restrict. Doesn’t mean I would support every choice. For example, I would refuse to forbid flirting but I would refuse to accept it, too. But after all, a woman could pull the head of family on you and tell you to make some law. Then you probably could no longer pull off this thing that you refuse to forbid and refuse to accept. Still, I wouldn’t enforce, I guess.

Eh, this all is so hair-splitting and moot.

 

[jmcrae]

Y’know, makes me wonder if Jesus was recognized as an Alpha Male?

He terrified both the Chief Priests and the Roman authorities, and he attracted more than 5,000 followers in the space of three years - so, um - yeah, I think He was an Alpha, all right.

 

[John21652]

John–a man doesn’t have to restrict a woman to get his point across, and vice versa. I think it’s called communicating…and respecting each other. Restriction sounds like something a parent does to his/her child. Just sayin’.

I quite agree whatever girl. I was trying to get at that concept when I used the term ‘compromise’. I am certainly not in favour of one partner telling/demanding the other what to do and what not to do. I’d hate to have someone so reliant on me anyway! I actually like a woman who is intellectual and can think for herself.

 

[John21652]

To be honest this is not how I approach relationships. I would not dream of telling any adult what they can and can’t do, I would observe how they live their lives and decide if I want to be in a relationship with them.

I would certainly discuss how I feel about gambling, drinking, and flirting. But I would not say “do this” or “don’t do that”. If their behavior didn’t suit me, I would leave and find someone else.

In many ways it’s just a difference in attitude, and if the guy wanted to stay with me he would obviously be restricted in his behavior. But I would be controlling my own behavior (i.e. staying with him or not) rather than attempting to control his.

Oh c’mon, you mean to tell me the man you marry will always be so perfect that you wont ever have to say ‘knock it off’? Or vice versa? Whatevergirl has put it succinctly, when she said communication is what it’s all about. Hopefully, good communication will prevent most problems from developing. However, I have seen realtionships where one spouse/partner has had to pull the other into line quite smartly and they have been right to do so. A friend of mine, a lawyer, got into the habit of working back very late and virtually made his wife into a single mum. His rationale was that he was making them very secure. To a point he was right, but the price was nearly too high. She pulled him into line quick smart and made him devote more time to his family. His complete focus on work took a bit of breaking. I know another fellow who suddenly became addicted to gambling. His wife took charge and pulled him into line quick smart as well.
In general terms these are extreme examples, but I would hope that if they develop in relationships, one partner has the gumption to help the other back onto the straight and narrow without simply riding off in to the sunset, saying it doesn’t suit me any more. I think it’s called love and devotion. Of course, normally, mutual respect and good communication will solve most problems. So, I for one would not hesitate to tell another adult what not to do if I thought the circumstances warranted it. I think it’s called leadership.

Hopefully, we marry someone whom we like, love and trust, as they are, for who and what they are and don’t try and change them.

Now what in heaven’s name has all this got to do with bare chested men on the beach?? :blushing:

 

[whatevergirl]

I quite agree whatever girl. I was trying to get at that concept when I used the term ‘compromise’. I am certainly not in favour of one partner telling/demanding the other what to do and what not to do. I’d hate to have someone so reliant on me anyway! I actually like a woman who is intellectual and can think for herself.

*Great!

I apologize if I misunderstood your point. *

 

[flyingfish]

Oh c’mon, you mean to tell me the man you marry will always be so perfect that you wont ever have to say ‘knock it off’? Or vice versa?

There are always going to be disagreements between any people living together, and there will be continuous give and take.

That kind of thing is not what people talk about when they accuse others of being controlling. One example of being controlling is a man who wants to forbid his wife to go to lunch with male friends, a woman who demands that her husband never watch another R rated film. Things like that.

Being pulled out of an addiction by your spouse is not the kind of thing anyone has in mind when they talk about “controlling” people.

This discussion originally arose from us talking about how Muslim men control women in their society (cover them up, in some places you need a man’s permission slip to go anywhere, in some places you can’t go anywhere without a man). You were saying that perhaps these men are being protective, and I said that you can tell apart a man who is protective for the woman’s sake and protective for his own sake. And the latter is not appreciated by women (unless perhaps they’ve been brainwashed in Muslim culture).

 

[John21652]

There are always going to be disagreements between any people living together, and there will be continuous give and take.

That kind of thing is not what people talk about when they accuse others of being controlling. One example of being controlling is a man who wants to forbid his wife to go to lunch with male friends, a woman who demands that her husband never watch another R rated film. Things like that.

Being pulled out of an addiction by your spouse is not the kind of thing anyone has in mind when they talk about “controlling” people.

This discussion originally arose from us talking about how Muslim men control women in their society (cover them up, in some places you need a man’s permission slip to go anywhere, in some places you can’t go anywhere without a man). You were saying that perhaps these men are being protective, and I said that you can tell apart a man who is protective for the woman’s sake and protective for his own sake. And the latter is not appreciated by women (unless perhaps they’ve been brainwashed in Muslim culture).

here’s a little hypothetical for you…
You are pregnant, with, say, child number three, and your husband suddenly announces he’s going out to lunch with a female friend from work. How would you feel and what would you do or say?
Oh and to keep it on topic, he’s going out in short sleeves and with his top three shirt buttons undone, thus exposing his strong arms and handsome chest!

 

[flyingfish]

here’s a little hypothetical for you…
You are pregnant, with, say, child number three, and your husband suddenly announces he’s going out to lunch with a female friend from work. How would you feel and what would you do or say?
Oh and to keep it on topic, he’s going out in short sleeves and with his top three shirt buttons undone, thus exposing his strong arms and handsome chest!

I don’t know how I would feel since I’ve never been in that situation. I might either not care, or I might feel insecure. It’s really hard for me to say, since I’ve never been pregnant or married. As it stands, I am not a very possessive person. It wouldn’t bother me to share a man with another woman at the present time.

But, whatever I felt, I would not tell him not to go.

 

[John21652]

I don’t know how I would feel since I’ve never been in that situation. I might either not care, or I might feel insecure. It’s really hard for me to say, since I’ve never been pregnant or married. [/qoute]

But, whatever I felt, I would not tell him not to go.

Well, I put it to you that you might feel very vulnerable, insecure, even unnatractive considering your position and so a little bit upset that your husband would want to spend time with another woman. I would also put it to you that your husband would be very inconsiderate of your feelings in this situation. If you felt any of these emotions then I think you have every right to ask him not to go, firstly for your own peace of mind and secondly, to make sure he ‘gets it’ with where you are at emotionally. I don’t think such a request/demand is unreasonable and even if it can be construed as “controlling” behaviour, in the circumstances the demand is warranted.

As it stands, I am not a very possessive person. It wouldn’t bother me to share a man with another woman at the present time.

Obviously you have never really been in love. Judging from an earlier post you made, a situation like this, sharing a man I mean, should make you run for the hills.

 

[flyingfish]

Well, I put it to you that you might feel very vulnerable, insecure, even unnatractive considering your position and so a little bit upset that your husband would want to spend time with another woman. I would also put it to you that your husband would be very inconsiderate of your feelings in this situation. If you felt any of these emotions then I think you have every right to ask him not to go, firstly for your own peace of mind and secondly, to make sure he ‘gets it’ with where you are at emotionally. I don’t think such a request/demand is unreasonable and even if it can be construed as “controlling” behaviour, in the circumstances the demand is warranted.

See, I don’t agree with this. Personally I have many platonic male friends. No amount of lunches with them would make me want them. For that reason I don’t think that if my husband went for lunch with a female friend that it would be any different from him going for lunch with a male friend.

I think it would be too controlling to ask him not to have female friends, because that essentially is what it amounts to. In order to maintain friendships you have to spend time with your friends.

Obviously you have never really been in love. Judging from an earlier post you made, a situation like this, sharing a man I mean, should make you run for the hills.

I have been in love many times, I have also been very heartbroken, cried for weeks after break ups and so on.

I am an unmarried woman, and at the present time I am not interested in exclusive relationships. I wouldn’t be exclusive and I wouldn’t expect any men I was dating to be exclusive.

Obviously should I meet a man I wanted to marry that would change.

I just don’t need a male companion. I want one, and I enjoy them when I have them, but I know that if one cheated on me and left that I would get through the initial pain, move on, and eventually find others.

 

[onmyknees]

I think that whatevergirl got it right. Great post!! Wish I could write that well. Men do convey modesty when they treat women with dignity, respect, courtesy and chivalry. They act like gentlemen in the presence of women. I might be in the minority but I don’t lust when I see muscular, bare, chested men. When I see a tall, dark haired, green or blue eyed, physically fit man in a long-sleeve, white shirt with the sleeves rolled up… well, that’s when I start to sin. The men who are all bulked up make me nauseated. They come across to me as vain and into themselves. I like the shy yet confident, studious types. Sensitive too of course.

I think that men and women have it equally hard when it comes to modesty.
I think women were made to want to attract attention from men. And we have to fight the temptation to dress immodestly. Just like men were made to be very visually attracted to women. They need to fight the temptation to look at women who are dressed immodestly.

 

[chevalier]

Regarding the lunches and the like, it’s not the actual singular activity per se (yes, I know how the last word cluster sounds), as much as the attitude and the fact someone would want that and wouldn’t see a problem with it.

I obviously don’t mean just a lunch in my own case, but when we get to the flirtacious behaviour, the undone top buttons John metaphorically invoked, and the whole rest, then we arrive at the centre of the problem. The problem is twofold. On the one hand, some disrespect to one’s partner (I mean spouse, fiance(e) etc.) might be involved and some people also become attracted without noticing, which the spouse or even just a bystander could well notice (I’ve seen people lose it without noticing); on the other hand, lack of care about the partner’s feelings and the need to manifest independence are deeply worrying. One of the essential properties of marriage is unity. I’m not talking about invalidity here. I’m talking about the fact it’s supposed to unite people, not for them to manifest independence and make sure their decisions are sufficiently free from consideration of the other partner (as if it’s bad to tone it down a bit to avoid testing the wife’s trust, not forgetting the sensitivity to assess the particular situation in which she’s pregnant and stuck home).

 

[John21652]

Regarding the lunches and the like, it’s not the actual singular activity per se (yes, I know how the last word cluster sounds), as much as the attitude and the fact someone would want that and wouldn’t see a problem with it.

I obviously don’t mean just a lunch in my own case, but when we get to the flirtacious behaviour, the undone top buttons John metaphorically invoked, and the whole rest, then we arrive at the centre of the problem. The problem is twofold. On the one hand, some disrespect to one’s partner (I mean spouse, fiance(e) etc.) might be involved and some people also become attracted without noticing, which the spouse or even just a bystander could well notice (I’ve seen people lose it without noticing); on the other hand, lack of care about the partner’s feelings and the need to manifest independence are deeply worrying. One of the essential properties of marriage is unity. I’m not talking about invalidity here. I’m talking about the fact it’s supposed to unite people, not for them to manifest independence and make sure their decisions are sufficiently free from consideration of the other partner (as if it’s bad to tone it down a bit to avoid testing the wife’s trust, not forgetting the sensitivity to assess the particular situation in which she’s pregnant and stuck home).

That’s a good answer chevalier. The issue is due consideration for one’s partners emotional fellings. As you say, a lunch per se is harmless, but, in the context within which I placed it, is fraught with danger. On many levels. At its most basic, it is showing disrespect towards one’s wife/fiance/partner. And a lack of modesty.

 

[chevalier]

That’s a good answer chevalier. The issue is due consideration for one’s partners emotional fellings. As you say, a lunch per se is harmless, but, in the context within which I placed it, is fraught with danger. On many levels. At its most basic, it is showing disrespect towards one’s wife/fiance/partner. And a lack of modesty.

I mean, if it causes problems for the partner and justifiable ones. If it’s really someone just freaking out, then I’m not sure that requests based on it should be heeded, such as e.g. a woman telling her husband not ever to talk to a woman for more than 10 minutes, even with witnesses, a man telling his wife to unfriend all unrelated males on Facebook and discontinue contact in real life etc. Obviously, expecting that there won’t be socialising with exes or former love interests or former admirers in date-like situations isn’t controlling or unreasonable (while forbidding it outright could perhaps also be harmful for a variety of reasons, resentment included).

E.g. John and Jane marry. John continues his old quirky habit of going clubbing from time to time and taking a random stranger girl along for the dancing alone. We probably wouldn’t take it against him much if he were single and probably his wife doesn’t really mind his having had that habit in the past. Of itself the behaviour is probably harmless, depending on its execution. But things are kinda amiss when being able to continue that habit is so important to a married man that he just has to be able to keep doing it. Nor is his wife off-base when she has a problem with it.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I do not think it would be very successful to try and implement a general policy of not allowing males to go shirtless and the beach or pool. I will say though that my son wears a surf-shirt when swimming all the time. I got it for him when he was younger because he is very fair-skinned and it protected him better. He now chooses to wear it and doesn’t feel comfortable without. So I guess on a limited basis–it can be done!

 

[flyingfish]

Obviously, expecting that there won’t be socialising with exes or former love interests or former admirers in date-like situations isn’t controlling or unreasonable (while forbidding it outright could perhaps also be harmful for a variety of reasons, resentment included).

For me this kind of a request would be a deal breaker. I have very close, but entirely platonic friendships with “exes”. I would not be with someone who demanded I throw away good friends.