Mandatory mask poll

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vz71 said:
You just made up a straw man.
And I am the one micharacterizing the situation?
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How is it a straw man? I’m saying I’d want to have masks enforced with the same force with which we enforce noise violations and acknowledging that it could create a situation that ultimately ends in state violence. But no one would say in that situation that the individual was shot for the noise violation.
 
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RolandThompsonGunner said:
How is it a straw man?
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You ignored the implicit threat the police carry with them.
Then you describe a situation involving some fictional person attacking the police.

The crime you describe is not a noise violation, but instead is an attack on the authorities.

A much more accurate telling is that in which the person with the loud music recognizes the threat brought to them and is compelled to comply because of the threat.
 
vz71 said:
You ignored the implicit threat the police carry with them.
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I’m not ignoring it. We all understand that the police exist to compel people to stop breaking the law, and that compulsion is ultimately backed up by force. It’s obvious.
vz71 said:
The crime you describe is not a noise violation, but instead is an attack on the authorities.
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Exactly. That’s why saying “you’d shoot someone for not wearing a mask” is disingenuous. No one is proposing summary executions at Costco. We’re talking about fines and citations. If you spin out a scenario with 10000 other steps, then sure, it can end in force.

If your point is “laws are ultimately enforced by state power” then sure. Laws are not suggestions.
 
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RolandThompsonGunner said:
We all understand that the police exist to compel people to stop breaking the law, and that compulsion is ultimately backed up by force. It’s obvious.
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Correct.
So I will reword my initial question to make it clear.
Do you believe this threat of violence against those not wearing a mask to be just?
Should someone be shot for not wearing a mask?
 
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vz71 said:
Do you believe this threat of violence against those not wearing a mask to be just?
Should someone be shot for not wearing a mask?
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No. I believe someone should be fined, similar to a noise violation or a parking ticket.
 
vz71 said:
Can’t have one without the other.

Either there is a force of law and the threat that goes with it, or it is not a law at all.

I see no other alternative.
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You’re correct that laws are not suggestions. But it’s not accurate to say that the penalty for violating any given law is “we will shoot you.” To get to the “we will shoot you” part you need to have multiple independent violations of the law, such that attributing them to the original violation is absurd.
 
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vz71 said:
But as you rightfully pointed out:
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Posted this above but you were too quick.

Its not accurate to say that the penalty for violating any given law is “we will shoot you.” because law ultimately rests on compulsion. To get to the “we will shoot you” part you need to have multiple independent violations of the law, such that attributing them to the original violation is absurd.

Spin me a scenario in which someone is shot for not wearing a mask. Not a scenario in which not wearing a mask is the initial reason the cops are there and there are ten other independent escalating events.

That was the point of my noise violation hypothetical. When the penalty is a ticket, you need some additional independent violation of the law to get to physical force, particularly deadly force.
 
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vz71 said:
Can’t have one without the other.
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Yes, you can, and we do in Texas. This particular fine cannot result in imprisonment, even if it is not paid. One sheriff said he would not enforce the mandate because it took away the ability to make an arrest, but that was just one sheriff.

Of course, the more likely scenario, if this took place in a business, is that the owner would want a criminal trespass warning issued, then, that trespass could result in arrest.
 
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