Mariwan Halabjayee flees fatwa

[Ella]

pro_universal:

Well, if the fact that Muslims support capital punishment means they’re evil, then I guess St. Thomas Aquinas and most Americans are evil too.

Who said Muslims are evil? I didn’t. I do, however, feel that capitol punishment is evil.

pro_universal:

After all, most Americans support the death penalty.

Well, I ain’t most Americans I guess.

pro_universal:

Now that the thread has come down to this, it’s obvious that cestusdei just wants to attack muslims. There’s no rhyme or reason for condemning another religion on this point, but there you have it…hypocrisy at its worst.

Pro, are you at the point where you hate cestusdei? I hope not.

 

[Muslim]

a) death by electric chair is much more cruel than beheading
b) public execution deters people from even thinking about committing that kind of crime
c) why feel sorry for criminals? they should’ve thought of that when committing their crimes… i understand there are some situations but most of the times they deserve it. infact i really dont support our prison system whre they get 3 hot meals a day, a bed, a roof over their head, etc… i support corporal punishment as well…

 

[Ella]

Muslim:

i can assure you that you wont feel the same way if someone killed your family member

Can you assure me? You don’t even know me.

I don’t make assumptions about you, though. I request the same courtesy.

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

Who said Muslims are evil? I didn’t. I do, however, feel that capitol punishment is evil.

Well, I ain’t most Americans I guess.

Pro, are you at the point where you hate cestusdei? I hope not.

Ella,

The point of the comparison was to highlight how nonsensical it is to pick such points as problems with Muslims. When some Saints and doctors of the Church condoned capital punishment, when our home society condones it, I can’t see any motivation other than hatred for muslims that would lead cestus to identify this as cause for eschewing the religion.

I certainly do not hate cestusdei. I love him and our Church, and that’s why I don’t like to see him defame it with hype and anger.

 

[Ella]

pro_universal:

Ella,

The point of the comparison was to highlight how nonsensical it is to pick such points as problems with Muslims. When some Saints and doctors of the Church condoned capital punishment, when our home society condones it, I can’t see any motivation other than hatred for muslims that would lead cestus to identify this as cause for eschewing the religion.

hmm… See I DO think it is a point, and a good one. If saints and doctors of the Church condoned capital punishment, well, I think they were wrong. I think that any religion whose founder, whose God, suffered a death via capitol punishment, should appreciate that capitol punishment is wrong.
Are you saying you agree that beheadings in Islamic countries are moral? Are you saying that because of a past that condones such horrors, Christians have no right to say that these things are wrong now? Please clarify for me.

pro_universal:

I certainly do not hate cestusdei. I love him and our Church, and that’s why I don’t like to see him defame it with hype and anger.

Conversely I do not like to see you, Pro, who I believe to be an honest and good person, bend over so far backwards in an effort to be egalitarian, that you appear to condone beheading criminals.

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

hmm… See I DO think it is a point, and a good one. If saints and doctors of the Church condoned capital punishment, well, I think they were wrong. I think that any religion whose founder, whose God, suffered a death via capitol punishment, should appreciate that capitol punishment is wrong.
Are you saying you agree that beheadings in Islamic countries are moral? Are you saying that because of a past that condones such horrors, Christians have no right to say that these things are wrong now? Please clarify for me.

Conversely I do not like to see you, Pro, who I believe to be an honest and good person, bend over so far backwards in an effort to be egalitarian, that you appear to condone beheading criminals.

No, my point is that, even though we disagree on capital punishment, the position that it is permissible doesn’t make muslims evil and isn’t cause for bashing them. We can have a discussion about it, and argue points either way, but that’s not what cestusdei is doing here. He’s pointing to the existence of the punishment as conclusory evidence that Islam is barbaric.

Even if you think the Saints were wrong, do you think this belief made them barbarians? There’s a difference between “this is something we disagree on” and “this is something that makes muslims bad people”

 

[Ella]

pro_universal:

No, my point is that, even though we disagree on capital punishment, the position that it is permissible doesn’t make muslims evil and isn’t cause for bashing them. We can have a discussion about it, and argue points either way, but that’s not what cestusdei is doing here. He’s pointing to the existence of the punishment as conclusory evidence that Islam is barbaric.

Even if you think the Saints were wrong, do you think this belief made them barbarians? There’s a difference between “this is something we disagree on” and “this is something that makes muslims bad people”

Well, there is an element here that we’re skipping around - the method of punishment. The US Constitution’s Eighth Amendment forbids Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

I think that both beheadings and hand amputations as punishments are forbidden by the Constitution. But these punishments are going on in some countries… then again I think the Electric Chair also qualifies.

So yes, to answer your question, yes, I believe that these punishments make the society that permits them barbaric… and in a move away from barbarism we should as a society ban them all.

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

Well, there is an element here that we’re skipping around - the method of punishment. The US Constitution’s Eighth Amendment forbids Cruel and Unusual Punishment.

I think that both beheadings and hand amputations as punishments are forbidden by the Constitution. But these punishments are going on in some countries… then again I think the Electric Chair also qualifies.

So yes, to answer your question, yes, I believe that these punishments make the society that permits them barbaric… and in a move away from barbarism we should as a society ban them all.

Alright, so how deep is your opposition to the US? Just how far are you willing to go to stop the barbarian American states that allow for hanging, electrocution, and death by firing squad?

Also, do you think that the Saints were barbarians who should be anathema because of their support for the death penalty?

If your answer is “no”, to the above, then why is this is an issue that leads you to call all muslims barbaric, rather than one where you say “they are good people but I disagree with this particular policy”?

 

[Ella]

pro_universal:

Alright, so how deep is your opposition to the US? Just how far are you willing to go to stop the barbarian American states that allow for hanging, electrocution, and death by firing squad?

I don’t oppose the US. I DO oppose capitol punishment, and abortion.

pro_universal:

Also, do you think that the Saints were barbarians who should be anathema because of their support for the death penalty?

Barbarians? Yep. Anathema? No. Of course these ‘Saints’ are hypothetical. I could demand that you show examples. Should we bother?
Yep, the closer to ‘civilized’ and distant from ‘barbarian’ some one/thing/government is for me is directly related to how much they permit beheadings, electric chairs, and abortions.

pro_universal:

If your answer is “no”, to the above, then why is this is an issue that leads you to call all muslims barbaric, rather than one where you say “they are good people but I disagree with this particular policy”?

I don’t call anyone barbaric who opposes such things as beheadings, hand amputations for theft, electric chair executions, or abortions. Those who do… well… yep, that’s barbaric thinking in my book.

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

I don’t oppose the US. I DO oppose capitol punishment, and abortion.

Barbarians? Yep. Anathema? No. Of course these ‘Saints’ are hypothetical. I could demand that you show examples. Should we bother?
Yep, the closer to ‘civilized’ and distant from ‘barbarian’ some one/thing/government is for me is directly related to how much they permit beheadings, electric chairs, and abortions.

I don’t call anyone barbaric who opposes such things as beheadings, hand amputations for theft, electric chair executions, or abortions. Those who do… well… yep, that’s barbaric thinking in my book.

newadvent.org/summa/301103.htm

With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but “after the first and second admonition,” as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, “A little leaven,” says: “Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame.”

 

[cestusdei]

Maybe if I said I was in favor of beheadings and amputations THEN pro would be against it? The muslims here are justifying these practices. I am delighted they are doing so. It proves what I have been saying.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

Maybe if I said I was in favor of beheadings and amputations THEN pro would be against it? The muslims here are justifying these practices. I am delighted they are doing so. It proves what I have been saying.

So is your point proven about St. Aquinas, whose work is posted above for you to read?

 

[Ella]

pro_universal:

So is your point proven about St. Aquinas, whose work is posted above for you to read?

Well, pro, what is your point? Are beheadings and amputations as punishments by the law moral or not?

If Aquinas said these things are moral, than I disagree with Aquinas. If you say these things are moral, than I disagree with you, too.

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

Well, pro, what is your point? Are beheadings and amputations as punishments by the law moral or not?

If Aquinas said these things are moral, than I disagree with Aquinas. If you say these things are moral, than I disagree with you, too.

Sure, I disagree with him too. But taht’s not the issue…Is Aquinas a barbarian because he supports this? Is it not possible that a reasonable person might come to the opposite conclusion that we have?

 

[cestusdei]

Hmmm…so you don’t have a problem with beheadings and amputations. I will keep that in mind when you next criticize me. Even mean ole’ cest doesn’t like cutting off heads, hands, and feet. Guess I am getting soft.

 

[pro_universal]

cestusdei:

Hmmm…so you don’t have a problem with beheadings and amputations. I will keep that in mind when you next criticize me. Even mean ole’ cest doesn’t like cutting off heads, hands, and feet. Guess I am getting soft.

Okay, how exactly can you read my post directly above and come to this conclusion?

What does “Sure, I disagree with him too” mean to you?

The point was, there are Saints of the Church who believed capital punishment for crimes was permissible. That should be enough to convince you that the teaching doesn’t make one a barbarian.

 

[Ella]

pro_universal:

Sure, I disagree with him too. But taht’s not the issue…Is Aquinas a barbarian because he supports this? Is it not possible that a reasonable person might come to the opposite conclusion that we have?

Not a reasonable educated person in 2006. Think about it, Pro- your argument could be used for anyone to justify anything.

Yes, I believe Aquinas was being a barbarian when he supported capitol punishment. I believe the Elizabethan era British were being barbarians when they had public executions. I believe the Taliban were being barbarians when they had public executions in a football stadium. I believe that the Eighth Amendment, by forbidding cruel and unusual punishment, was a step away from barbarianism and towards civilization.
This is where your egalitarianism is making you appear to approve of things that are evil, Pro.

 

[pro_universal]

Ella:

Not a reasonable educated person in 2006. Think about it, Pro- your argument could be used for anyone to justify anything.

Yes, I believe Aquinas was being a barbarian when he supported capitol punishment. I believe the Elizabethan era British were being barbarians when they had public executions. I believe the Taliban were being barbarians when they had public executions in a football stadium. I believe that the Eighth Amendment, by forbidding cruel and unusual punishment, was a step away from barbarianism and towards civilization.
This is where your egalitarianism is making you appear to approve of things that are evil, Pro.

No, what I am doing is pointing out that, just as individual beliefs that you may find barbaric do not make the individuals who hold them entirely barbaric (you recognize this with Aquinas), individuals who do barbaric things should not stain an entire religion.

So, can we agree that the fact that there are bad people in Afghanistan doesn’t mean Islam is evil, and also, the fact that Islam permits capital punishment does not make Islam evil?

 

[exoflare]

pro_universal:

So, can we agree that the fact that there are bad people in Afghanistan doesn’t mean Islam is evil, and also, the fact that Islam permits capital punishment does not make Islam evil?

“Permits?” … or do you mean, “orders”?

 

[pro_universal]

“Permits?” … or do you mean, “orders”?

I mean permits. Orders depend on circumstances and findings of a criminal court.