Mariwan Halabjayee flees fatwa

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Pro, it does seem like Randel supports the Taliban. I am curious if you are going to call out Randel for supporting the Taliban in the same manner that you are repeatedly calling out Cestusdei for believing nuclear weapons can be used in a just war.
 
He won’t. That would not be pc. To confront real terrorism would mean it isn’t all America’s fault. That would cause so much cognitive dissonance he couldn’t stand it. It is much easier to ignore real terrorism and blame someone else. It happens all the time.
 
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Ella:
Pro, it does seem like Randel supports the Taliban. I am curious if you are going to call out Randel for supporting the Taliban in the same manner that you are repeatedly calling out Cestusdei for believing nuclear weapons can be used in a just war.
Ella, I posted the language I saw in Randel’s post that I thought was relevant to illustrate my point. He blames the failure of the Taliban to do anything good on a lack of international support, which is certainly in my view incorrect and hopelessly idealistic as a position.

That does not, however, make him a terrorist, as it demonstrates that he recognizes the Taliban as a failed movement that did not uphold his religion.

cestus,

As much as you try, you cannot fool me into missing the fact that you’re not providing any justification for your antics whatsoever.
 
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pro_universal:
Ella, I posted the language I saw in Randel’s post that I thought was relevant to illustrate my point. He blames the failure of the Taliban to do anything good on a lack of international support, which is certainly in my view incorrect and hopelessly idealistic as a position.

That does not, however, make him a terrorist, as it demonstrates that he recognizes the Taliban as a failed movement that did not uphold his religion.
Well, I didn’t call Randel a terrorist. However I think he is rather more fond of the Taliban than you seem to. As the following quote suggests:
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Randal:
If they were given fair enough time and support from the world community or alteast West had left them alone and not interfere in their internal affairs (like how Western coutries do not like external interference in their own internal matters), then Taliban could have easily and eventually acheived in establishing an ideal Moslem society.
Randal indicates that the Taliban could have 'eventually achieved… an ideal Moslem society".

Is Randal a follower of the ‘Real Islam’ by believing that the Taliban were on the path to making an ‘ideal Muslim society’?
 
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Ella:
Well, I didn’t call Randel a terrorist. However I think he is rather more fond of the Taliban than you seem to. As the following quote suggests:

Randal indicates that the Taliban could have 'eventually achieved… an ideal Moslem society".

Is Randal a follower of the ‘Real Islam’ by believing that the Taliban were on the path to making an ‘ideal Muslim society’?
I do see that you didn’t call him a terrorist, I was explaining the context of my earlier response.

I do not presume that he thinks what the Taliban actually became is good, because I know from personal interaction with people from Pakistan and Afghanistan (and some reading on the subject) that the Taliban were in the early days welcomed as bringers of peace. It was something like a student political movement (the word means students, from what I understand). The warlords who ruled before the Taliban came had harsh, “shoot anything that moves” policies in place, and I don’t think anyone contests that the first Taliban victories led many Afghanis to believe they would bring peace.

They clearly did not, and I think randel is blaming the west for the Taliban’s failure to live up to the expectations they created. I think blaming the west for what the Taliban did when it showed its Pashtun-proto-nationalist colors is not sensible, and of course, randel remains free to prove me wrong with his views of the specific taliban policies that were enacted.

I believe when he said they leaned towards tribal custom instead of Islam, he was referring the Taliban’s reliance on Pashtunwali, an ancient tribal code used by the Pashtun ethnic group that made up the Taliban. Most people in the west believe the Taliban was all about strict Islam, but this notion is false…the Taliban we all know was a pashtun identity movement, that became more dedicated to wiping out racial minorities than even to any international islamist radical cause.
 
Hmmm. Pro, do you believe a real, actual ‘Islamic society’ can exist?

And do you think that would be a good thing?

BTW I do not infer the same things you do from Randel’s posts. I DO think he thinks certain aspects of the Taliban were good, things that I do NOT think were good at all.
His quote here: “Taliban had to stop fighting (American and allied forces post 911) but they did not surrender nor gave up their principles (my emphasis). Because they were men of principles (again, my emphasis - what manner of principles? If not Islamic then what kind?) and not power hungry nor materialistic.” This quote suggests that he indeed finds the actions of the Taliban honorable; questionable actions that I am sure you do not need me to dig through the Internet to find examples of; though I will if you so desire…

I will find it interesting (and a hopeful sign) if he comes on here and says that the enforcement of women wearing the Burka, the amputation of hands of thieves, and beheadings are not ‘Real Islam’.
 
in all honesty, Taliban when they first came had a good agenda and was welcomed by most Afghanis. unfortunately, as they say power corrupts…
i believe what randel is saying is that if the West supported the Taliban (in the beginning stage) and tried to help out the poor country, it wouldn’t have been this bad…
i dont think he is condoning the illegal things taliban did…just that the taliban had good motives (initially) but they couldn’t fulfill their religious duties and power corrupted them…
 
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Ella:
Hmmm. Pro, do you believe a real, actual ‘Islamic society’ can exist?

And do you think that would be a good thing?

BTW I do not infer the same things you do from Randel’s posts. I DO think he thinks certain aspects of the Taliban were good, things that I do NOT think were good at all.
His quote here: “Taliban had to stop fighting (American and allied forces post 911) but they did not surrender nor gave up their principles (my emphasis). Because they were men of principles (again, my emphasis - what manner of principles? If not Islamic then what kind?) and not power hungry nor materialistic.” This quote suggests that he indeed finds the actions of the Taliban honorable; questionable actions that I am sure you do not need me to dig through the Internet to find examples of; though I will if you so desire…

I will find it interesting (and a hopeful sign) if he comes on here and says that the enforcement of women wearing the Burka, the amputation of hands of thieves, and beheadings are not ‘Real Islam’.
I believe he is naively suggesting that the war in Afghanistan and the lack of international support caused the Taliban to fail in that sentence. As far as I can tell, the actual sentence blames America…not true, I say, but still no “the Taliban only did good.”

The preceeding language supports that view:
If they were given fair enough time and support from the world community or alteast West had left them alone and not interfere in their internal affairs (like how Western coutries do not like external interference in their own internal matters), then Taliban could have easily and eventually acheived in establishing an ideal Moslem society.
But alas, they were given very hard time by the West and only two countries recognised their Goverment and no one extended a real hand of frriendship thus finally involved them in a crime they did not commit and the so-called champion of freedom-America–bombed their villages’ innocent people with the most advanced bombs
I think Muslim’s view is much more accurate, but this still above implies that randel views the Taliban as failing in its obligations to the people.
 
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cestusdei:
Oh, exactly what I expected. Here is a guy who admits he supports and probably is a member of the taliban. They blew up Buddha statues, tortured women and children, flogged people, buried women to their waists and stoned them to death, beheaded people.
Hi cest,

Don’t put your words in my mouth, cest.
Please show me where I admitted that I support Taliban, if you are a truthful priest and not an antipope?

As to Taliban,

First, when Taliban came into the picture, for the first time?

After Russia’s historic defeat by the American supported Mujahideen groups of Afghanistan and then soon after Russian troops’ complete evacuation, America stopped helping/supporting the Mujahideen that mainly caused chaos in the whole Afghanistan because there was no law and order and ramnents of pro-Communists Afghan regime were roaming like devils and killings and robbing the innocents was daily routine everywhere and there seemed no way out of this chaotic mischievious situation. It was this context if devastated situtation, an Afghan group of young students of Moslem theology, under the name Taliban, with little support of Pakistan’s then government of Be-Nazir Bhutto, was able to restore peace and get a good grip over the ramnents of Communist Afghanis.

So, when Taliban came into the power, they did not have a ready-made fully functional healthy Afghanistan in a silver plate but a mostly devasted and ruined one and there was lawlessness everywhere and civilains were not safe.

Same America who was a good supporter of all Mujahideen groups of Afghanistan, did not support Taliban nor the world community like the idea of an Islamic Afghanistan thus except two countries no one embraced them.

Despite all these non-cooperation, Taliban were able to restore peace and they were on the way to establish whole of Islamic shari’ah because that was their main aim and not political power because they did not came by themselves but the unfortunate chaotic situation forced them to take the challenge of the time. They were poor students.

But since they were not given fair enough time and their power brought to an end by daisy cutter, cluster and carpet bombing on the innocent civilains of Afghanistan, thus you cannot say decisively that they could not have acheived an ideal Islamic state.

But I can say with great confidence by looking at their remarkable achievements in very less time, they could have eventually formed and regulate an ideal Islamic society, as time goes by and by learning from their past mistakes.

Are you assuming that they were or supposed to be some kind of “infallible” rulers?
Are you at the impression that all Popes were infallible? Are you living in your dreamland that your Popes who I guess supposed to be infallible in faith and moral issues, cannot/and or never made any mistake?

Pope Boniface VIII is reported to have said:

The Christian religion is a human invention like the faith of the Jews and the Arabs;
The dead will rise just as little as my horse which died yesterday;
Mary, when she bore Christ, was just as little a virgin as my own mother when she gave birth to me;
Sex and the satisfaction of natural drives is as little a sin as hand washing;
Paradise and hell only exist on earth; the healthy, rich and happy people live in the earthly paradise, the poor and the sick are in the earthly hell;
The world will exist forever, only we do not;
Any religion and especially Christianity does not only contain some truth, but also many errors. The long list of Christian untruth includes trinity, the virgin birth, the godly nature of Jesus, the eucharistic transformation of bread and wine into the body of Christ and the resurrection of the dead.

Do you think all these are true reflection of RCC’s Cathecism?

As per Mary Ann Collin -a former Catholic nun:

In 769, Pope Stephen IV came to power with the help of an army which conquered the previous Pope. Stephen gave orders for his papal rival to be flogged, have his eyes cut out, have his kneecaps broken, and be imprisoned until he died. Then Pope Stephen sentenced a second man to die a slow, agonizing death. He had pieces of his body cut off every day until he finally died.
[Malachi Martin, “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church,” pages 85-89. (Martin was a Catholic priest and a Vatican insider. He did research in the Vatican Archives. His books are a plea for reform.) Claudio Rendina, pages 153-157. Richard P. McBrien, pages 124-125.]
catholicconcerns.com/Popes.html

Because of this type of Pope (Stephen IV), is it O.K to blame and held responsible the whole Catholic Church and you and all Catholics?
 
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cestusdei:
They [Taliban] blew up Buddha statues, tortured women and children, flogged people, buried women to their waists and stoned them to death, beheaded people.
Hi cestusdei,

This is a blanket statement with no proper knowledge of the context of all the incidents you are talking about. I don’t blame you because this is what Western media made you to believe. You are just a victim of Western media’s evil trick.

As far “Buddha statues”, yes, Taliban did destroy those huge statues which were engraved/carved out of mountain. They felt neccessary to remove the carving impressions. That was their view to discard it and it is in line with Biblical view:

Deuteronomy 7: 26
Neither shalt thou bring any thing of the idol into thy house, lest thou become an anathema, like it. Thou shalt detest it as dung, and shalt utterly abhor it as uncleanness and filth, because it is an anathema. (DR Bible)

Do you know what anathema means?

Devarim - Chapter 7:26.
Nor should you bring an abomination into your house, lest you be are to be destroyed like it, but you shall utterly detest it, and you shall utterly abhor it; for it is to be destroyed.
chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9971&showrashi=true

But keep in mind that Taliban’s action of destroying those carved statues is not an Islamic act. Thus many Moslem scholars opposed and condemned Taliban’s act at that time.

In this context, it is interesting to note from Taliban’s perspective that, “the UN and others (such as New York’s Metropolitan Museum of Art, the British Museum, Taiwan’s National Palace Museum, and even such Taliban friends as Iran, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka) will give millions of dollars to save un-Islamic stone statues of Bamiyan but not one cent to save the lives of Afghani men, women, and children.” [Prof.W.J. Rathje–a Visiting Professor at the Stanford University Archaeology Center, and a Senior Editor of Discover Archaeology.]
 
Randel, do you believe women should be forced to wear Burkas? Do you believe amputation of the hand is the correct punishment for theft?
Do you believe public beheadings is a moral way to punish criminals?
 
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randel:
Hi cestusdei,

This is a blanket statement with no proper knowledge of the context of all the incidents you are talking about. I don’t blame you because this is what Western media made you to believe. You are just a victim of Western media’s evil trick.

As far “Buddha statues”, yes, Taliban did destroy those huge statues which were engraved/carved out of mountain. They felt neccessary to remove the carving impressions. That was their view to discard it and it is in line with Biblical view:

Deuteronomy 7: 26
Neither shalt thou bring any thing of the idol into thy house, lest thou become an anathema, like it. Thou shalt detest it as dung, and shalt utterly abhor it as uncleanness and filth, because it is an anathema. (DR Bible)

Do you know what anathema means?

Devarim - Chapter 7:26.
Nor should you bring an abomination into your house, lest you be are to be destroyed like it, but you shall utterly detest it, and you shall utterly abhor it; for it is to be destroyed.
chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=9971&showrashi=true

But keep in mind that Taliban’s action of destroying those carved statues is not an Islamic act. Thus many Moslem scholars opposed and condemned Taliban’s act at that time.

In this context, it is interesting to note from Taliban’s perspective that, “the UN and others (such as New York’s Metropolitan Museum of Art, the British Museum, Taiwan’s National Palace Museum, and even such Taliban friends as Iran, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka) will give millions of dollars to save un-Islamic stone statues of Bamiyan but not one cent to save the lives of Afghani men, women, and children.” [Prof.W.J. Rathje–a Visiting Professor at the Stanford University Archaeology Center, and a Senior Editor of Discover Archaeology.]
Randell, Mary Collins is apparently a hoax. I posted about her before. But even for the sake of argument she really exists, so what? I know several crazy exnuns.

Now on to your quote. We don’t have a problem with images. That goes way back. Even the Old Testament commands images. You guys bow 5 times a day to a big rock in Mecca, that’s idolatry in my book. I am not a buddhist, but I don’t advocate destroying art. Even Islamic art, such as it is. We would have been happy to assist Afghans, but not by aiding the terrorist Taliban. I would like to see your answer to Ella’s question on their human rights abuses. Getting Muslims and pro to condemn human rights abuses seems to be virtually impossible.
 
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Ella:
Randel, do you believe women should be forced to wear Burkas? Do you believe amputation of the hand is the correct punishment for theft?
Do you believe public beheadings is a moral way to punish criminals?
Well, Randel, gonna answer my questions? How about Emad? Pro? What do you think about these things?
 
I hear crickets chirping!

COME ON RANDEL, COME ON EMAD. Here is a chance for you to tell us what the ‘real Islam’ believes about these things. And Pro, I am sure you have an opinion about these things too.

What things you might ask?
  1. Forcing women to wear Burkas.
  2. Amputation of the hand as a moral punishment for theft.
  3. Public beheadings as a moral way to punish criminals.
All habits of the Taliban.
 
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Ella:
I hear crickets chirping!

COME ON RANDEL, COME ON EMAD. Here is a chance for you to tell us what the ‘real Islam’ believes about these things. And Pro, I am sure you have an opinion about these things too.

What things you might ask?
  1. Forcing women to wear Burkas.
  2. Amputation of the hand as a moral punishment for theft.
  3. Public beheadings as a moral way to punish criminals.
All habits of the Taliban.
Looks like he won’t be able to answer us.
  1. Wrong.
  2. Wrong.
  3. Wrong.
That’s my opinion, hard to say what randel is thinking…he clearly separates the Taliban and Islam (via the statues issue), but he seems to believe they did no wrong of their own accord also.
 
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pro_universal:
Looks like he won’t be able to answer us.
  1. Wrong.
  2. Wrong.
  3. Wrong.
That’s my opinion, hard to say what randel is thinking…he clearly separates the Taliban and Islam (via the statues issue), but he seems to believe they did no wrong of their own accord also.
I agree with you.
 
Well Randel, Emad, evading answering these questions isn’t doing much for your arguments.

COME ON RANDEL, COME ON EMAD. Here is a chance for you to tell us what the ‘real Islam’ believes about these things.
What things you might ask?
  1. Forcing women to wear Burkas.
  2. Amputation of the hand as a moral punishment for theft.
  3. Public beheadings as a moral way to punish criminals.
All habits of the Taliban.
 
This is so pitiful, guys. You won’t answer my questions? Is it because I’m female?

Cowards.🙂
 
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Ella:
This is so pitiful, guys. You won’t answer my questions? Is it because I’m female?

Cowards.🙂
Uh, you might want to look at the word under Randel’s account name. It says “suspended.”
 
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pro_universal:
Uh, you might want to look at the word under Randel’s account name. It says “suspended.”
You are correct. However Emad is still here and I am sure there are other Muslims as well who can answer my questions.

Their silence disturbs me. Does it disturb you, Pro? I mean, these are basic human rights that my questions obliquely address…
 
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