Married daughter not using NFP!

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One flesh while being on the pill?:confused:

That is an oxymoron.
As someone pointed out, if hormones or other medical treatments are taken that are known to cause permanent or temporary sterility, but that expected sterility is as an unintended side effect, a married couple can still morally have sexual relations. IOW: On the Pill, one flesh, and no inherent contradiction.

For that matter, if a couple takes such an action with the primary intention of contraception and then they repent, they are not morally bound to avoid relations until fertility has been restored. They can morally resume relations legitimately as soon as they repent and refrain from any further contraceptive action.

After all, it is using contraception with the primary intention of separating the marital act from one’s fertility that is the sin, not the sex itself.
 
I do have an anecdotal story for you…I come from a devout Catholic Family as well and when I got married I left the church for 10 years. So, what did my family do? I will first tell you what my family didn’t do…They didn’t intrude their opinions into my marriage (they stayed out of it), they didn’t make us feel ashamed. What they did when they saw me sin was pray, for 10 years. That’s all you can do for your daughter. She is an adult making these decisions in conjunction with her husband, they are no longer 2 but one flesh. Stop being intrusive and say your prayers.
It was 11 years for me. Eleven years married by a judge. And all my Mom did was pray and pray and pray. Of course, then she cried when she heard that we being married in the Church. :hug3:
 
I think it is probably pretty common knowledge especially now that it is against Church teaching. The apron strings must be cut and you will have to trust that you educated her in the faith enough that she will come around. It is a hard thing to buck society and go against the grain. Stay out of it and pray pray pray. If you speak of it again, when she does give you grandchildren you might not be able to speak to them.😦
 
Sometimes adult children get a perverse pleasure out of baiting their parents into rash judgement. Mom has not been silent. Provided she knows her point has been made, she ought to refrain from tossing any more pearls.
I suppose that would make sense too. A lot of people today do have a strange tendency towards navel gazing and overshare.
 
With the entire “it’s completely not our business, whatever they want to do is their business”, I understand for the first time ever women who decide to terminate a pregnancy for a prenatal diagnosis of down syndrome saying repeatedly “my parents are very Catholic, but they supported us in our decision”.

This has puzzled me since I became involved in supporting women with poor prenatal diagnoses carry to term (not all will continue on this path). I thought perhaps they were misrepresenting their parents position. Now, I’m not so sure, it does seem to be the overwhelming response here - couple’s personal decision, whatever they decide.
 
With the entire “it’s completely not our business, whatever they want to do is their business”, I understand for the first time ever women who decide to terminate a pregnancy for a prenatal diagnosis of down syndrome saying repeatedly “my parents are very Catholic, but they supported us in our decision”.

This has puzzled me since I became involved in supporting women with poor prenatal diagnoses carry to term (not all will continue on this path). I thought perhaps they were misrepresenting their parents position. Now, I’m not so sure, it does seem to be the overwhelming response here - couple’s personal decision, whatever they decide.
First of all abortion and contraception are entitely different issues. Second, there’s a difference between supporting someone’s decision and letting them make it. Letting the OPs daughter make her own decision on contraception is not the same as supporting that decision.
 
First of all abortion and contraception are entitely different issues. Second, there’s a difference between supporting someone’s decision and letting them make it. Letting the OPs daughter make her own decision on contraception is not the same as supporting that decision.
There is no way the OP could prevent her daughter from making the decision, even if she vehemently disagrees. The posts here repeatedly say “it’s their personal business, it’s their sex life”. So is being pregnant. Pregnancy comes from sex. So if you must refrain from saying ANYTHING whatsoever about anything as personal as birth control, then pregnancy is also just as personal. Many methods of BC are also abortafacient in their function, so it is not that big of a stretch.

I was just saying that I clearly see how you can go from one to the other, given the views here.
 
There is no way the OP could prevent her daughter from making the decision, even if she vehemently disagrees. The posts here repeatedly say “it’s their personal business, it’s their sex life”. So is being pregnant. Pregnancy comes from sex. So if you must refrain from saying ANYTHING whatsoever about anything as personal as birth control, then pregnancy is also just as personal. Many methods of BC are also abortafacient in their function, so it is not that big of a stretch.

I was just saying that I clearly see how you can go from one to the other, given the views here.
The OP has expressed her opinion. I’m sure pressing the issue will serve to push her away from her mom and the Church. I would also argue that pregnancy is less personal because it involves an additIonal human being in the baby. So that is not just between the couple.
 
There is no way the OP could prevent her daughter from making the decision, even if she vehemently disagrees. The posts here repeatedly say “it’s their personal business, it’s their sex life”. So is being pregnant. Pregnancy comes from sex. So if you must refrain from saying ANYTHING whatsoever about anything as personal as birth control, then pregnancy is also just as personal. Many methods of BC are also abortafacient in their function, so it is not that big of a stretch.

I was just saying that I clearly see how you can go from one to the other, given the views here.
What are the OP’s options though? And I’m asking sincerely, not rhetorically. When a parent has done their level best to bring their children up in the Faith, to educate their children on Church teachings, and the adult child rejects those teaching - what is a parent to do? Turn their back on the kid? Insert themselves into their child’s marriage like a third partner? Pray for the child? Remind the child every time they’re together of the child’s sin?

A very wise member of these forums, Cat, wrote something profound on another parenting thread that I think is applicable here:

No matter how “good” and “religious” your children are while they are growing up, their faith is not truly theirs until they have grown up and left the home and are living on their own. Until then, they are basically mirroring their parents’ faith, and doing all the religious things because they bring about a “reward”, mainly parental approval, as well as approval from their extended family and friends.

So I ask again: how far should a parent go to ensure their adult children are living a Catholic life?

Luna
 
What are the OP’s options though? And I’m asking sincerely, not rhetorically. When a parent has done their level best to bring their children up in the Faith, to educate their children on Church teachings, and the adult child rejects those teaching - what is a parent to do? Turn their back on the kid? Insert themselves into their child’s marriage like a third partner? Pray for the child? Remind the child every time they’re together of the child’s sin?

A very wise member of these forums, Cat, wrote something profound on another parenting thread that I think is applicable here:

No matter how “good” and “religious” your children are while they are growing up, their faith is not truly theirs until they have grown up and left the home and are living on their own. Until then, they are basically mirroring their parents’ faith, and doing all the religious things because they bring about a “reward”, mainly parental approval, as well as approval from their extended family and friends.

So I ask again: how far should a parent go to ensure their adult children are living a Catholic life?

Luna
Luna, you are hands down my favorite person on these forums. You’re strong, you know what you believe and you stand by it, but you are never short of love, compassion, and understanding for others. I love how you always maintain a charitable tone and attitude, even when you must be fuming inside.
 
What are the OP’s options though? And I’m asking sincerely, not rhetorically. When a parent has done their level best to bring their children up in the Faith, to educate their children on Church teachings, and the adult child rejects those teaching - what is a parent to do? Turn their back on the kid? Insert themselves into their child’s marriage like a third partner? Pray for the child? Remind the child every time they’re together of the child’s sin?

A very wise member of these forums, Cat, wrote something profound on another parenting thread that I think is applicable here:

No matter how “good” and “religious” your children are while they are growing up, their faith is not truly theirs until they have grown up and left the home and are living on their own. Until then, they are basically mirroring their parents’ faith, and doing all the religious things because they bring about a “reward”, mainly parental approval, as well as approval from their extended family and friends.

So I ask again: how far should a parent go to ensure their adult children are living a Catholic life?

Luna
I don’t necessarily disagree. But I would draw the line at saying " what ever you decide" in the case of abortion for a fetal anomaly.
 
I don’t necessarily disagree. But I would draw the line at saying " what ever you decide" in the case of abortion for a fetal anomaly.
Abortion is different than birth control. But the question still remains, what can a parent do? Especially since the issues of sex and reproduction are the business of the couple, not the couple and their parents.
 
What are the OP’s options though? And I’m asking sincerely, not rhetorically. When a parent has done their level best to bring their children up in the Faith, to educate their children on Church teachings, and the adult child rejects those teaching - what is a parent to do? Turn their back on the kid? Insert themselves into their child’s marriage like a third partner? Pray for the child? Remind the child every time they’re together of the child’s sin?

A very wise member of these forums, Cat, wrote something profound on another parenting thread that I think is applicable here:

No matter how “good” and “religious” your children are while they are growing up, their faith is not truly theirs until they have grown up and left the home and are living on their own. Until then, they are basically mirroring their parents’ faith, and doing all the religious things because they bring about a “reward”, mainly parental approval, as well as approval from their extended family and friends.

So I ask again: how far should a parent go to ensure their adult children are living a Catholic life?

Luna
Of course we all agree that you have to both model and teach the facts of the faith when the children are still minors. I think most of us agree that everyone in our home may fairly be expected to behave in a way that doesn’t offend our personal morality in any serious way. No one has the right to ask us to be complicit in immoral acts. So the question is: What about when the child becomes an adult, moves out, and has their own household?

I think at this point, you have a relationship of more of a mentor than you did when the child was directly under your authority. You have to operate under the clear acknowledgement that the child is totally free to accept your guidance or ignore it. Yes, you provide guidance, because everything you say or do will be taken as guidance whether you want it to or not. Having said that, you also have to show respect that you are now dealing with a “graduate”, with someone who has become a full member of the guild, so to speak. You also have to be practical about choosing what you say and when you say it, so that you give the person not the most guidance, but the kind and amount of guidance that is most likely to have the desired affect. Sometimes that is going to include a lot of keeping your mouth shut, praying like crazy, and suffering through their insistence upon making their own mistakes.

You don’t ever have to make the pretense that wrong is right in order to avoid giving offense, and that is as true with relatives as with anyone else. I’m not saying that. I’m saying that the wrong kind of guidance at the wrong time can actually lower your effectiveness as a mentor. You do have to be clear that you respect the child’s status as a fellow adult, too. How to navigate that is something you have to discern as you go along, but you cannot afford to get hysterical. If you do that, you’re hardly likely to be anything but a frustrated Cassandra, and that does no one any good.

While it is totally reasonable to refuse to lend money to immoral uses, never use emotional manipulation, guilt trips, withholding of shows of love, withholding inheritance (excepting when it would be likely to be used directly for immoral dissipation or other bad ends), or other such power plays. A good end is not achieved by bad means.
 
While it is totally reasonable to refuse to lend money to immoral uses, never use emotional manipulation, guilt trips, withholding of shows of love, withholding inheritance (excepting when it would be likely to be used directly for immoral dissipation or other bad ends), or other such power plays. A good end is not achieved by bad means.
Absolutely agreed with everything you wrote Easter, but especially the bolded.

Too often adult child-parent relationships sour because of power tripping. Parents resort to draconian systems of rewards and punishments with adult children, as if cutting a child out of a will carries the same weight as losing computer privileges for a month, as if a consequences and rewards discipline system even works with adult children. And adult children who are just as guilty when they bait their parents with pronouncements they know go against their parents’ value systems.

Luna
 
Absolutely agreed with everything you wrote Easter, but especially the bolded.

Too often adult child-parent relationships sour because of power tripping. Parents resort to draconian systems of rewards and punishments with adult children, as if cutting a child out of a will carries the same weight as losing computer privileges for a month, as if a consequences and rewards discipline system even works with adult children. And adult children who are just as guilty when they bait their parents with pronouncements they know go against their parents’ value systems.

Luna
Yes. The same goes for when adult children manipulate using their participation (and the presence of their children) at social gatherings when the “offense” in not directly related to the social treatment they are getting from family members. There is the refusal to be made a party to immoral activities or the disrespect of legimate boundaries, and then there is social manipulation.

I don’t think people realize the degree to which “punishment shunning” is emotional abuse. It is one thing to say you need some room to cool off or to refuse to be treated badly, and quite another to silently shun your connection with someone who loves you as a way to exert your control over the relationship. That and causing scenes in order to manipulate your family into walking on eggshells around you…not good.
 
Yes. The same goes for when adult children manipulate using their participation (and the presence of their children) at social gatherings when the “offense” in not directly related to the social treatment they are getting from family members. There is the refusal to be made a party to immoral activities or the disrespect of legimate boundaries, and then there is social manipulation.

I don’t think people realize the degree to which “punishment shunning” is emotional abuse. It is one thing to say you need some room to cool off or to refuse to be treated badly, and quite another to silently shun your connection with someone who loves you as a way to exert your control over the relationship. That and causing scenes in order to manipulate your family into walking on eggshells around you…not good.
I believe that rather than what you said at the end about walking on egg shells (and we probably ought to begin a different thread with this)- but there comes a time when one party manipulates the other or there is just too much pain to be able to really deal with (or it comes over and over) - these are the times some of us have had to make decisions to move on with our lives without certain members of the family. I just could see a HUGE rift occurring between the mother and daughter here - one poster said the daughter could have just said “yes I got it” (referring to the NFP material the mother asked about)- and that might have ended the situation with no problem. Others have implied that the daughter may have gotten some kind of perverse feeling from telling her mom that they were using the pill - (I completely disagree - it doesn’t seem the daughter brought the subject up at all but I could have missed something)- anyway - it’s best this not become something that can drive a wedge between the mother and daughter - again I’m still amazed a mother would just come out and ask something about her daughter’s and SIL’s method of family planning.
God Bless
Rye
 
What are the OP’s options though? And I’m asking sincerely, not rhetorically. When a parent has done their level best to bring their children up in the Faith, to educate their children on Church teachings, and the adult child rejects those teaching - what is a parent to do? Turn their back on the kid? Insert themselves into their child’s marriage like a third partner? Pray for the child? Remind the child every time they’re together of the child’s sin?

A very wise member of these forums, Cat, wrote something profound on another parenting thread that I think is applicable here:

No matter how “good” and “religious” your children are while they are growing up, their faith is not truly theirs until they have grown up and left the home and are living on their own. Until then, they are basically mirroring their parents’ faith, and doing all the religious things because they bring about a “reward”, mainly parental approval, as well as approval from their extended family and friends.

So I ask again: how far should a parent go to ensure their adult children are living a Catholic life?

Luna
👍
 
What are the OP’s options though? And I’m asking sincerely, not rhetorically. When a parent has done their level best to bring their children up in the Faith, to educate their children on Church teachings, and the adult child rejects those teaching - what is a parent to do? Turn their back on the kid? Insert themselves into their child’s marriage like a third partner? Pray for the child? Remind the child every time they’re together of the child’s sin?

A very wise member of these forums, Cat, wrote something profound on another parenting thread that I think is applicable here:

No matter how “good” and “religious” your children are while they are growing up, their faith is not truly theirs until they have grown up and left the home and are living on their own. Until then, they are basically mirroring their parents’ faith, and doing all the religious things because they bring about a “reward”, mainly parental approval, as well as approval from their extended family and friends.

So I ask again: how far should a parent go to ensure their adult children are living a Catholic life?

Luna
The bolded part is a pretty accurate generalization but lets not forget the faith of many Children saints who owned their faith long before they were adults!
 
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