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anjoh66
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I dont think she feels neglected, as he was an Anglican priest before conversion, she should be pretty used to it.
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canadianguy1143
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That’s not true, how do you explain Pope’s having children?
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Fone_Bone_2001
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LemonAndLime knows; I think (s)he just meant that all but one of the other people in her/his class want to become Catholic solely because their children are enrolled at that Catholic school, so this way they’ll be a more united family.
I know that’s not ideal, but it’s a start. My father was Protestant when he married my mother, and after a few years he decided to convert - not because he had had some great epiphany about the truth of the Catholic faith, but more out of a “what the heck? Why not; it’ll make it easier for my family” approach.
And now he’s as devout a Catholic as any I know.
Well, some were illegitimate. Of the many legitimate ones, however, most were born before their fathers received Holy Orders, let alone became pope. All of the married popes with children that I cited, for instance, were celibate widowers at the time they occupied the papal chair.
That said, I actually agree with you, canadianguy: I’ve never heard or read that married priests in the first centuries of Christianity were required to remain celibate after ordination if their wives were still living.
It does seem that certain restrictions have always applied: St. Paul stipulates, for example, that “a bishop must be … married only once” (1 Timothy 3:2), so I’m pretty sure the Church has never ordained to the episcopacy men who have remarried after their first wife died. And if a married bishop’s wife died, I’m pretty sure based on the above passage that he’d be prohibited from remarrying - just as a married Roman Catholic deacon is today, if his wife dies. I’m guessing that the same was and is true for married priests, as well.
But as I said, I’ve never heard or read it to have been the case that married priests had to be celibate even while they were still married. It’s certainly not the case today…
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rlg94086
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I originally converted because my wife and I made the decision that the family should worship in the same faith. As a lukewarm “cradle” Catholic, she felt uncomfortable going Protestant, so we agreed that I would check out The Catholic Church first, and then we would go Protestant, if that didn’t work out.
My conversion hinged on the smallest of teachings - that the Church doesn’t judge/know if an individual is bound for heaven or hell…even in the case of non-Catholics/Christians…because that is for God to decide. We leave our loved ones in His merciful hands. That was a lot different than most non-Catholic Churches. That “smallest of teachings” is all it took to bring me into the loving arms of the Church, and I am forever thankful that Our Lord knew what I could handle at the time (please see my sig quote from Br Leo). My faith and understanding have grown abundantly ever since.
When discussing our faith with new Catholics and RCIA attendees, it is important to remember that people aren’t going to soak everything up right away. There is a lot to learn, understand and accept! Eventually, with God’s grace, they will surrender their will to God.
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LemonAndLime
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Yeah that is what I meant, but its also not. All of the parents at RCIA said their children were at the local Catholic school and they wanted to know what they were learning, or they wanted to support them better. No one, not even me, directly said “I want to convert” but everyone is aware that thats what the course leads to and I don’t think anyone is there purely for information - especially in this day and age. Everyone joins in prayer for example.
Also, before going to RCIA we all have a private interview with the woman who teaches most of the sessions, and I think those who had no wish at all to convert wouldn’t have progressed to the actual session. BUT, saying that - in the leaflet from the Church about RCIA it says “For people who want to convert, or want to know more about the faith” so I don’t know, maybe there are some people there who don’t want to convert. But then, they could just buy a book if they wanted to know more.
I’m going in circles.
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rlg94086
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That is correct. RCIA is also for those who are interested in the faith, but unsure. I’ve known Catholics who went through RCIA two or three times before coming into the Church.Yeah that is what I meant, but its also not. All of the parents at RCIA said their children were at the local Catholic school and they wanted to know what they were learning, or they wanted to support them better. No one, not even me, directly said “I want to convert” but everyone is aware that thats what the course leads to and I don’t think anyone is there purely for information - especially in this day and age. Everyone joins in prayer for example.
Also, before going to RCIA we all have a private interview with the woman who teaches most of the sessions, and I think those who had no wish at all to convert wouldn’t have progressed to the actual session. BUT, saying that - in the leaflet from the Church about RCIA it says “For people who want to convert, or want to know more about the faith” so I don’t know, maybe there are some people there who don’t want to convert. But then, they could just buy a book if they wanted to know more.
I’m going in circles.
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Fone_Bone_2001
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Exactly; I agree completely. You expressed quite clearly what I was trying to get at.
Yes, that makes sense; thanks for clarifying! Basically, I was trying to say that you don’t have to know you want to convert or that you already believe everything the Church teaches to go to RCIA. Far from it! It’s a useful avenue through which to explore the Catholic faith, as the leaflet you quoted establishes.
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hxcCatholic413
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I agree 100% What will this married priest do if he is at home watching over his sick kids and he is called to do an emergency last rites? feels like the Church is lowering its standards just to get more priests
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Holly3278
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I don’t think this is anything new. This has been going on for a year or so now, right?
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canadianguy1143
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What would a celibate priest do in the same circumstances if he is doing emergency last rites to someone else? You get another Priest to do it.
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countertenor
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What does a Celibate priest who’s looking after an elderly parent do in the same situation? What does anyone who works in emergency situations do in such a situation? They deal with it and make it work.
Far from lowering standards, it’s finding men who have to work tirelessly to live their vocations. Celibacy, the priesthood and marriage are all separate vocations. Rather than asking rhetorical questions, go out and meet married priests and their families. The most selfless and tireless priests I’ve ever met have been married.
I’m not detracting from celibate priests here, because they too are very selfless.
Celibate and married priests can completely complement each other and allowing married men to be ordained is not going to get rid of celibate priests. Those that are called to be celibate and to the priesthood, will continue to come to the priesthood as celibate priests and those that are called to marriage and to the priesthood will come that way.
Each group has its gifts and its problems. The problem I continually see however is that the “problems” that are always tossed out against married priests are usually not the actual problems they face, and while they can be issues, they are never as large as people assume they are.
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Fone_Bone_2001
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Indeed. Rather than basing objections on knee-jerk reactions to change itself, those who take issue with even the slightest exception in the Latin church’s discipline of priestly celibacy should support their reasons with theologically legitimate and well-reasoned arguments.
But on this matter, I don’t think there are any. No one is chipping away at the dam; these exceptions are nothing new and nothing surprising; the Catholic Church is not lowering its standards just to get more priests. On the contrary, standards are being raised (at least in our country) in the wake of the sex abuse scandals. The Latin church isn’t getting rid of priestly celibacy any time soon, and I’m glad for that; all the same, there always have been and always will be married priests out there.
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hxcCatholic413
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The point i’m making is a married priest can’t do the same amount of work that a celibate priest does…that’s pretty obvious. You can’t be devoted 100% to being a priest and 100% to being married. Sometimes it’s hard finding another priest to take care of what you need to get done. Case in point it can take me about an hour just to find a priest to see for confession on a weekday and I live in a fairly populated area.
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canadianguy1143
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I don’t disagree with that per se. Obviously a married priest doesn’t have as much time as a Celibate Priest. But that doesn’t mean that a married Priest can’t help out on a “part time basis”. Consider dioceses and parishes. With married men becoming Priests they could help the Pastor (celibate Priest) out with more Masses and more Priests to hear confessions and give Communion to the Sick. I genuinely believe that is a great alternative to the shortage of Priests.
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Petergee
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No that definitely has nothing to do with it. If anything the Church has been raising its standards for candidates for priesthood in the last 25 years.
It’s a matter of compassion and charity. When an Amglican clergyman converts to Catholicism, the Anglican church cuts him off completely - he is left with no congregation, no parish church, no job, no superannuation or retirement benefits and, in most cases as the Anglican church insists on keeping his house, he becomes homeless. As well as the usual fate of converts to Catholicism who often lose many friends and are even cut off by relatives.
Usually he has not been trained for any other career and he sincerely wants to serve God and the church. Usually he has been an “Anglo-Catholic” for many years and has believed that he in fact has been confecting the body and blood of Christ each day when he performed Amglican services.
The Catholic Church in her kindness solves these problems, if he is accepted for ordination as a Catholic priest. This is not automatic just because he has been an Anglican clergyman - each individual case is decided on its merits. Ex-Anglican clergy who have young or dependent children are not usually ordained to the Catholic priesthood. And ex-anglican married priests are not usually given pastoral posts in parishes, but are assigned work in other apostolates.
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archangel04
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For someone who is becoming Catholic you are stepping in deep waters here. The Church has the sole authority on scriptures, becaususe the Bible was put together by the Church, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, not because of the patriarchal society. Trust the Church, if Jesus would have wanted women in the priesthood He would have made His mother the highest of all priest, but this was not the case. He chose 12 men, and at the last supper it was just them and Jesus.
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Petergee
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Yes but I’m sure your wife didn’t move out! The elusive “Mrs Peter” is nowhere mentioned or even hinted at in the story. Surely if she was alive she would be at the bedside of her dying mother. Instead we find that St Peter’s mother-in-law got straight up from her would-be-deathbed and began playing hostess to Christ and the Apostles. She is not a dependent old lady, she is a the lady of the house. Probably she was still in her forties. Probably she was healthy and active with the hosuework until she developed a sudden infection - the major cause of death in those days before antibiotics and probably the same reason why St Peter’s wife probably died young, and apparently childless. Young widowhood was far more common in those days.
Note also when our Lord called him, St Peter “immediately” left his job and followed HIm in His wanderings around the countryside for the next 3 years. It’s unlikely he wouldn’t have done that if he had had a living wife and children.
Yes, that was his papal “coronation” so to speak. But his papal “election” by Christ’s commission to him happened earlier.
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Petergee
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It’s very likely that the 3rd century Clement of Alexandria is wrong on this point, as nearly all the other ancient church Fathers who mention the subject disagree with him.
See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priesthood_%28Catholic_Church%29
and
davidmacd.com/catholic/why_priests_cant_marry.htm
The idea that St Peter’s wife was still alive during his ministry arose because of another legend that grew up in the 3rd to 6th century, that the early Roman Martyr St Petronilla was in fact St Peter’s daughter; this is extremely unlikely, in fact he probably died years before she was born. See
newadvent.org/cathen/11781b.htm
I didn’t make assumptions either way. I merely said that the evidence suggests that he “almost certainly” was a widower.
yes and it makes the case for **episcopal **and, a fortiori, **papal **celibacy virtually overwhelming.
See above quotes.
Be surpised then. This tradition began in the 11th century. When the Western church made the celibacy rule absolute, and the eastern church chose not to, its solution to the problem was to allow married priests to have sexual relations with their wives.
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Fone_Bone_2001
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Wow, I never thought of it that way (in terms of their potential joblessness/homelessness). I’m glad you explained that; thanks.
Thanks for the documentation on the history of clerical celibacy, too.
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Matthew_Holford
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Personally I do not see a problem with married men becoming priests. The Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches allow it too. I think it is wrong as some have said that the priest cannot fully devote his time to his priestly vocation if he is a married man. I think many married priests are married to women who become fully engaged in the Church. A priest’s wife and family can be very supportive to a priest. I also think that a priest who can “come home from work” and talk through his day with his wife and family is likely to be a less stressed priest than one who goes home to an empty presbytery.
There are also other professions which are demanding on a person’s time but where they still manage to commit themselves to their profession and to have a family, such as doctors.
Another aspect that I think some have confused is about the Church bending the rules for married men but not for women. The Church’s rule about normally having unmarried priests is a matter of discipline, i.e. a man-made rule that the Church made. Therefore, because it’s only a man-made rule any Pope at any time could change the rule. The aspect of not allowing women to become priests is a matter of doctrine. This is based on Scripture and Tradition. The Pope cannot change doctrine. This is about Divine Law which the Church cannot alter.
I believe that the Church would benefit from a married priesthood. I have found marriage to be a wonderful blessing and never a hindrance to my professional life. I would even go as far as allowing a married episcopate. I think here we should not be looking to the Eastern Churches as a guide - where they allow a married priesthood but a celibate episcopate. They seem to have a long tradition of choosing their bishops from among monastics, who of course should be celibate.
There are also other professions which are demanding on a person’s time but where they still manage to commit themselves to their profession and to have a family, such as doctors.
Another aspect that I think some have confused is about the Church bending the rules for married men but not for women. The Church’s rule about normally having unmarried priests is a matter of discipline, i.e. a man-made rule that the Church made. Therefore, because it’s only a man-made rule any Pope at any time could change the rule. The aspect of not allowing women to become priests is a matter of doctrine. This is based on Scripture and Tradition. The Pope cannot change doctrine. This is about Divine Law which the Church cannot alter.
I believe that the Church would benefit from a married priesthood. I have found marriage to be a wonderful blessing and never a hindrance to my professional life. I would even go as far as allowing a married episcopate. I think here we should not be looking to the Eastern Churches as a guide - where they allow a married priesthood but a celibate episcopate. They seem to have a long tradition of choosing their bishops from among monastics, who of course should be celibate.
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