Mary and her role? (Multi-Merged)

[ahs]

"ahs:

So, is this your assertion that such is wrong, or your Bible study leader’s? If it is yours, you need to support it before expectign anyone to take it seriously. So…how is such wrong? How/Why is it wrong to ask someone to pray for you? Are the Scriptures are wrong when they teach us to pray for one another? Is the book of Revelation wrong? Was Paul wrong? On what basis do you, or this Bible study leader, say that intercession is wrong?

I don’t know. That is why I’m asking you.

You did not ask anyone, that I have seen so far, if it is okay to use intercessory prayers or ask for intercessions from others. You said, “that’s wrong [to do such]” and I am asking if this is your assertion, or teh assertion of your Bible study leader. Please answer that. And if it is your assertion, please support it and tell me if the Scriptures are wrong and on what basis you form your assertion.

I hope you just tell me whether or not you have to pray to saints and Mary in the Mass to be Catholic.

That’s been covered ad nauseum by several others, including myself. So, back to the questions I asked…(see above).

I already know the difference about praying ‘to’ instead of praying by asking for help or intercessions. So please don’t go back to “Catholics don’t pray to”.

I have not gone “back to ‘Catholics don’t pray to’”. I am asking you if your assertion is your own or your leader’s, and then asking you to support it (see above).

 

[pablope]

Its leather kind of burgundy red with a communion cup on the front and a cross behind it.

Something like this…images.cloud.worthpoint.com/wpimages/images/images1/1/0707/29/1_a3285983f3006a5351f0c97440a4acbf.jpg

 

[adf417]

Hello Amos, I finally got through all of the posts and may I say I am thoroughly amused. I hope your audience is equally amused.

Peace and love of Christ be with you!!!

 

[Nita]

…I ask a simple question. Do Catholics have to pray to saints. Some on this forum have said “Yes” at least once per week in the prayers of the mass that includes prayers to saints and Mary.

They were mistaken in their answer, precisely because there are no prayers to saints every Sunday in the Mass.

Still other things I read say Catholics must pray the mass together with the priest and congregation as one prayer said together as one and offered to God.

It’s the terminology “must” that causes the problem. We “must” attend Mass every Sunday and Holyday of Obligation (unless there is some legitimate reason to miss). But there is no regulation that says we “must” recite all the prayers, …
Certainly it is what is best; it is what God prefers. But when you say “must”, well…
Almost every Catholic I know has experienced what we refer to as being distracted - where our mind and thoughts have gone off on some tangent; eg. we’re off thinking about what we’re going to fix for dinner instead of listening and/or praying along with the Mass prayers. It never even crosses our mind to think that we have sinned when that happens. So what you mean by “must” needs to be clarified. (The directions in the Missal do not use that word.)

If the answer “No” Catholics don’t have to pray “to” the saints or Mary for help, then how can Catholics pray the mass together with the priest as ONE prayer offered to God? Do Catholics have two teachings or one teaching? Which one is it? Do Catholics have to pray the mass parts that are prayers to the saints or Mary or do they not?

Why do you keep saying there are prayers to the saints or Mary in the Mass? We have shown you that they are not there. If you keep insisting that they are, then please post one of them and give a link. (The previous examples you gave were prayers to God, not to the saints who were named in the prayer. Eg. If you talk/pray to God about your mother, do you think you’re praying to your mother???)

Just yes or no is all I’m looking for.

You’re asking us to verify the proper response to something that, to my knowledge, doesn’t even exist (that is, Mass prayers to Mary or the saints).

Please just give us one prayer from the Mass that is addressed to Mary or the saints.

 

[AmosTown]

Among others you are asking for intercession, does this intercession bother you?

Does your answer mean yes? I think that you are saying yes to Catholics in mass have to pray to the saints and Mary for help. I’m just trying to sort out everything so I know what is required to be a Catholic.

 

[pablope]

Then what you are saying is to be a Catholic and if Form A prayers are prayed together at Mass then Catholics must pray for the intercession of Mary and the angels and saints. ?

The Confiteor
I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask the blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. Amen.

We are not asking only Mary and the saints, we are also asking the angels, and everyone else…do you see anything wrong with this?

 

[AmosTown]

You did not ask anyone, that I have seen so far, if it is okay to use intercessory prayers or ask for intercessions from others. You said, “that’s wrong [to do such]” and I am asking if this is your assertion, or teh assertion of your Bible study leader. Please answer that. And if it is your assertion, please support it and tell me if the Scriptures are wrong and on what basis you form your assertion.

That’s been covered ad nauseum by several others, including myself. So, back to the questions I asked…(see above).

I have not gone “back to ‘Catholics don’t pray to’”. I am asking you if your assertion is your own or your leader’s, and then asking you to support it (see above).

I didn’t say I said it was wrong. I said I’ve been told it was wrong. I’m asking you to help me figure it out.

I had to look up “ad nauseum” but I don’t agree.

Can you just answer does a Catholic have to say the prayers of the mass to be a Catholic?

Why are there so many people that don’t answer this with just answer this with a simple yes or no?

 

[pablope]

Does your answer mean yes? I think that you are saying yes to Catholics in mass have to pray to the saints and Mary for help. I’m just trying to sort out everything so I know what is required to be a Catholic.

If you do not want to talk to a catholic priest, call the nearest catholic parish near you and ask to speak to the RCIA director. He/she can have a one on one talk with you.

 

[davidv]

I didn’t say I said it was wrong. I said I’ve been told it was wrong. I’m asking you to help me figure it out.

I had to look up “ad nauseum” but I don’t agree.

Can you just answer does a Catholic have to say the prayers of the mass to be a Catholic?

Why are there so many people that don’t answer this with just answer this with a simple yes or no?

Could it be that your question does not have simple yes or no answer? How is that possible?

 

[AmosTown]

The Confiteor
I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask the blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God. Amen.

We are not asking only Mary and the saints, we are also asking the angels, and everyone else…do you see anything wrong with this?

I didn’t say I said its wrong. I said a lot of people say that its wrong. So I’m asking again: Do you have to pray “to” Mary and the saints to be a Catholic?

Yes or no.

 

[pablope]

I didn’t say I said it was wrong. I said I’ve been told it was wrong. I’m asking you to help me figure it out.

I had to look up “ad nauseum” but I don’t agree.

Can you just answer does a Catholic have to say the prayers of the mass to be a Catholic?

Why are there so many people that don’t answer this with just answer this with a simple yes or no?

Okay…what do you need figured out? Just to clarify.

 

[KP3243]

Does your answer mean yes? I think that you are saying yes to Catholics in mass have to pray to the saints and Mary for help. I’m just trying to sort out everything so I know what is required to be a Catholic.

The first thing you might want to stop doing is saying “pray to” we don’t pray to pray to anyone but God we do however ask for the intercession of Mary, the saints and angels.

 

[pablope]

I didn’t say I said its wrong. I said a lot of people say that its wrong. So I’m asking again: Do you have to pray “to” Mary and the saints to be a Catholic?

Yes or no.

What do you mean by “pray” here?

I think we have a lingo issue. Pray or to pray could mean differently to different people.

 

[AmosTown]

If you do not want to talk to a catholic priest, call the nearest catholic parish near you and ask to speak to the RCIA director. He/she can have a one on one talk with you.

I now fear that one priest will tell me one thing and another something different. Isn’t there a book or something that can answer the simple question of this whole thread.

I thought Catholics preach that the reason to be a Catholic is that there is one authority on faith.

 

[AmosTown]

What do you mean by “pray” here?

I think we have a lingo issue. Pray or to pray could mean differently to different people.

You just wrote "I ask the blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, " I looked up pray and one meaning is a petition. The word “ask” is a petition.

 

[AmosTown]

The first thing you might want to stop doing is saying “pray to” we don’t pray to pray to anyone but God we do however ask for the intercession of Mary, the saints and angels.

The definition of pray is below:
pray - entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea

 

[pablope]

I now fear that one priest will tell me one thing and another something different. Isn’t there a book or something that can answer the simple question of this whole thread.

I thought Catholics preach that the reason to be a Catholic is that there is one authority on faith.

A priest will not tell you anything differently. With your question, just reading it will not answer your question, you need a one on one.

 

[adf417]

What do you mean by “pray” here?

I think we have a lingo issue. Pray or to pray could mean differently to different people.

I’m certain there is no lingo issuu here. The pattern was clear many posts back.

 

[ahs]

I didn’t say I said it was wrong. I said I’ve been told it was wrong. I’m asking you to help me figure it out.

Oh, okay. Well, if I were you, I’d take these questions to my Bible study leader and demand an answer to these questions:

How is intercessory prayer wrong?
How/Why is it wrong to ask someone to pray for you?
Are the Scriptures wrong when they teach us to pray for one another?
Is the book of Revelation wrong?
Was Paul wrong?
On what basis do you (the Bible study leader) say that intercession is wrong?

He’ll likely repsond with something about necromancy…completely forgetting that Christ told us that God is the God of the living, not of the dead…that when we pass on from this life, we are alive in God, not “dead”. He’ll forget that Paul pointed us to the great cloud of witnesses who have passed on before us who cheer us on during our race in this life, and he’ll forget the numerous examples of people praying for others, others asking specifically for prayers, the departed souls in Heaven who are fully alive, the prayers of the saints raising to Heaven as incense, etc… (I posted a couple dozen Scripture references to all this earlier on in this very thread by the way).

Anyway, if your Bible study leader is assuming that he has some authority to teach the Scriptures to you, he needs to be able to support his asserted belief and provide evidence of his authority to teach the Scriptures to you. (I don’t think he’ll be able to do either of these.)

 

[KP3243]

You just wrote "I ask the blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, " I looked up pray and one meaning is a petition. The word “ask” is a petition.

Except the Penitential Rite starts off addressing God and along with Mary, and all the angles and saints it also asks every person present in the building to pray for them to the Lord Our God.