Mary- other children

[dcdurel]

*
Jesus is God,*
Mary is the mother of Jesus,
Mary is the mother of God!

*God is a Trinity, *
Mary is the mother of God,
Mary is the mother of the Trinity!

God the Father subsists within the Trinity,
Mary is the mother of the Trinity,
Mary is the mother of God the Father!

Hmmm, "Does not compute."

*Mary is the mother of Jesus but not the mother of God! Jesus is one person with two natures, one human and one didvine. To say that Mary is the mother of God, denies the fact of Jesus’ humanity. *

This demonstrates that your logic is flawed! :yup:

Not flawed at all.
Mary is the mother of God, because Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. But Mary is not the mother of all three persons of the Trinity. Mary is not the mother of the Father and the Holy Spirit. But, since Jesus is God and Mary is His mother than Mary is the mother of God. Mary is also the spouse of God and the daughter of God, because Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the daughter of the Father.

Your fallacy is similar to this one:
"Jesus is God!

*God is a Trinity, *
Jesus died on the cross,
God died on the cross.

God the Father subsists within the Trinity,
God died on the cross
God the Father died on the cross.

Hmmm, "Does not compute." because God the Father cannot die. Therefore Jesus did not die on the cross OR only the humanity of Jesus died on the cross."

Either way, this leads to heresy. If Jesus did not die than we are not saved. If only the humanity of Jesus died, then Jesus is two persons, which is the Nestorian heresy, and again, we are not saved.

Your error is that you fail to understand Church teaching. The Church teaches that everything Jesus did in His humanity, such as being born and dying on the cross, must be attributed ONLY to the second person of the Trinity, but at the same time, since Jesus is God, we must also say that God died and God was born. But, we cannot say the Father died and the Father was born, because the Father does not have a human nature.

But whatever Jesus did in His divinity, we must say that all three persons did in their divinity. Thus, when the bible says that all things were created through Jesus, we then must say that all things were created through the Father and all things were created through the Holy Spirit.

 

[MaggieOH]

John1717:

I guess I’ll knock it. I have said many rosaries and I can tell you that it as described above, “meaningless babble and repetition.” Just how does this prayer to Mary glorify the Creator of the Universe???

another diversionary tactic and off topic

 

[MaggieOH]

John1717:

You seem to forget that I do not accept “the Church Fathers” as the authority! They were not infallible nor were they all in agreement.

what a cop out. I wonder if you say the same about Dave Hunt and James White. Or are you only selective where the early Church Fathers are concerned?

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

John1717:

Got a little off topic I see!!! I guess it’s OK because it’s you!!!

you are wrong. My response was concerned about the Marian doctrines including the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and that is the subject of the thread.

Sarcasm will not work here.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

John1717:

I guess I’ll knock it. I have said many rosaries and I can tell you that it as described above, “meaningless babble and repetition.” Just how does this prayer to Mary glorify the Creator of the Universe???

then you were not paying attention to what you were doing. If you were you would never say such a thing because you would know your Scripture.

Maggie

 

[Church_Militant]

John1717:

You seem to forget that I do not accept “the Church Fathers” as the authority! They were not infallible nor were they all in agreement.

They don’t have to be infallible…they WERE THERE, and they DO all agree…you just won’t accept them because you don’t wanna admit that your religion isn’t the same as the New Testament church. Their testimony is far more valid than yours because they gave their lives for what they believed and you won’t even remain open to the truth.

IN FACT you don’t even agree wih the 3 pillars of the reformation, who wrote that they did believe that Mary was the mother of God (as have all Christians for 2,000 years!). Yours is the Nestorian heresy and the same one that led to the rise of Islam…yeah, you heard me, the Moslems. You even use Muslim terminolgy…they call Jesus “Ibin Maryam” …the son of Mary, but will not acknowlege Him and ibin Allah…the son of God. The very same thing that you just did.

My point is that regardless of all your arguments and derision of Catholicism you don’t even know your own religion…how can you possibly argue with us. I’ve told you before and I’ll tell you again…You don’t know what you’re talkin’ about…though you are convinced that you do.

BTW, your Rosaries may have been poor, but mine are GREAT. So tell someone who values that opinion…because you won’t find 'em here. Oh yeah…If it’s such vain repitition…why does God answer them for us? There must be a billion people who can testify to the answers to prayer they’ve obtained from praying the Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

So about the only “vain repetition and foolish babbling” I’ve seen around here is the arguments of you and your buddies You claim to believe the Bible but you don’t because you won’t listen to the scriptures when we point out the basis for Mary’s perpetual virginity…which are every good. We Catholics don’t care if you don’t agree…that’s YOUR problem.

If Mary had other children, then where were they the day their eldest brother Christ was Crucified? Their mother was there and Jesus’ best friend John? If she had other kids they would’ve been there too and they would’ve been responsible for taking care of Mary. Instead, from the cross and with almost his last breath Jesus gives her to St. John. Something that he wouldn’t have done under Jewish customs back then IF HE HAD SIBLINGS.
The New Testament clearly indicates that they were his cousins…the children of Mary’s cousin Mary (John19:25-27).
"25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.

26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. 27 After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own."

See! Even his mom’s cousin was there…where are these supposed siblings of his? Nowhere…that’s where, because they simply did not exist.

Now: Having returned to the actual topic of this thread…we return you now to your regularly scheduled programming.
enough with this hijack…take it to it’s own thread if you wanna beat this dead horse some more. http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage13/18.gif

 

[Benadam]

oudave:

Hi
This is an interesting responce, I would guess that when Maggie posted her responce that it was in tongue and cheek. Do you think that she was taking it too lightly?. I don’t think that prayers in the scriptures are meaningless. I have seen catholics pray the rosery and most acted like they couldnt wait to get done. This is why scripture warns against such things-

Mat 6:7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Heart broken repentance is what Jesus is looking for, we need to be angry at sin and hate it as much as Satin himself. If we are sorry on Sunday for something we did on Saturday but fully intend to do again on Monday then I don’t care how many written prayers wheather from scripture or the CCC we offer up to God, it will not matter to Him. He will not honor that. If a persom goes to confession every week for twenty years and says the same prayers, does that not constitute as being repetitive?

I did not say this to offend anyone but rather to point something out that I see wrong in the Catholic church.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Dave,
I read the post, then I reread the post, you didn’t mention the Catholic church untill you wrote that you didn’t want to offend anyone. I notice you describe some things scripture teaches us not to do but you don’t attach it to anyone. Anyway, I didn’t feel accused so don’t worry about it.

 

[Church_Militant]

John1717:

I guess I’ll knock it. I have said many rosaries and I can tell you that it as described above, “meaningless babble and repetition.” Just how does this prayer to Mary glorify the Creator of the Universe???

You just messed up right there…
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus
Don’t like it…then toss out the Psalms where it says “bless the Lord O my soul and do not forget all his benefits”
It also glorifies God because we are asking her to pray for us, now and at the hour of our death. Mary and every Christian knows that God is the source of all good things.

John…give it up…no one’s gonna cease bein’ Catholic on the basis of all this stuff you say and the rotten disrespectful attitude you cop toward our faith. If anything it just makes us all the more sure that we’re right where we belong because you have no arguments that are convincing. All YOU have is your supposedly Holy Spirit led interpretations that don’t agree with ours and the church fathers or even the “fathers” of the reformation who began this departure from the faith 487 years ago. Why should we believe what you say? Your lack of agreement with the guys who paid for the faith in their blood makes your message even more suspect. The devil can quote scripture…How do we know your interpretation is from God and not the devil? Forget it…No way Id buy into what your preachin’.
Pax tecum,

 

[Benadam]

John1717:

I guess I’ll knock it. I have said many rosaries and I can tell you that it as described above, “meaningless babble and repetition.” Just how does this prayer to Mary glorify the Creator of the Universe???

because there is a pattern within life that still moves to the rythm that all creation lived and breathed before sin. This perfect pattern of life made visible the Mystery of God as one universal People gathered around His throne in worship.

This pattern became part of Mary’s life. A life recorded in memory that is not recalled by any effort but recalled automatically to that same primordial pattern lost to sin. Like ours her emotions were automatically recorded and automatically recalled as she experienced the events of her life.Life in union withGod in the intimate relationship of mother and child.

For us the sting of death causes this dynamic of memory to be overwhelmed in fears that prevent it from offering it’s properly ordered service. In Mary it was able to service to her the Mystery of God as creation made it visible.

The emotions attached to the sting of death requires that the memory attached to emotion serve it’s purpose as a survival mechanism. In Mary it returns to it’s human purpose of recalling automatically those twinkles and flashes of awe as visible glimpses of God’s mystery are noticed and pondered then recalled automatically from the heart.

This power of the soul governed by fears is good in animals but in man it becomes the serpent forever swallowing it’s tail. In Mary that serpent is unable to open it’s mouth wide eneogh to swallow it’s tail because this time it’s tail isn’t beast because it is ‘the’ seed of the Woman who anthropamorphized that idolatrous tail into the foot that crushed it’s head.

Mary’s union with her Son united her to God’s continuous response to creation. Christ’s responses to creation were in fact first causes that created effects that harmonize with innocent age bfore sin.

One of those most intimate effects was Mary’s experience of life as God’s mother. In her, emotional memory automatically pondered and recalled the events of her divine Son’s life kept eternally in her heart.

Mary’s emotional memory is ordered in perfection and recalles to the heart the beat of Christ and the deepest rythm of life united to
God. The rythm of prayer offered in the pattern of the rosary’s beads. That rythm lost at the fall and then reestablished in Mary’s heart ,where Her divine Son’s earthly life made her life a perfect dance to the deepest rythm that fulfills it’s purposes.

It is also a rythm that exposes the pattern of death that the history of sin marked the hands and foreheads of men with.The rosary contains all of history experienced by man and each man as well. The reason the bible doesn’t contain the rosary is because within the rosary all of creation is contained.

Thje Rosary is in union with the fundamental rythm of life lived in it’s former perfection and oneness, consequently exposing the latter imperfection of sin after the fall.

That rythm is reestablished in the heart of a mother who’s Son wrote the Divine Name that is sung to it’s beat.

What some mock as ‘vain repitition’ is the beat of the everlasting and new song all of creation sings in eternal praise of the Lord.

 

[Church_Militant]

Benadam said:

The Rosary is in union with the fundamental rythm of life lived in it’s former perfection and oneness, consequently exposing the latter imperfection of sin after the fall.

That rythm is reestablished in the heart of a mother who’s Son wrote the Divine Name that is sung to it’s beat.

What some mock as ‘vain repetition’ is the beat of the everlasting and new song all of creation sings in eternal praise of the Lord.

Beautifully expressed Benadam! Thank you.
Pax vobiscum,

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

oudave:

Hi
This is an interesting responce, I would guess that when Maggie posted her responce that it was in tongue and cheek. Do you think that she was taking it too lightly?. I don’t think that prayers in the scriptures are meaningless. I have seen catholics pray the rosery and most acted like they couldnt wait to get done. This is why scripture warns against such things-

Mat 6:7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Heart broken repentance is what Jesus is looking for, we need to be angry at sin and hate it as much as Satin himself. If we are sorry on Sunday for something we did on Saturday but fully intend to do again on Monday then I don’t care how many written prayers wheather from scripture or the CCC we offer up to God, it will not matter to Him. He will not honor that. If a persom goes to confession every week for twenty years and says the same prayers, does that not constitute as being repetitive?

I did not say this to offend anyone but rather to point something out that I see wrong in the Catholic church.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Dave it was pointed out earlier that the prayers of the Rosary are prayers from scripture the Mystery’s or decades are the Gospels which you contemplate do you know what contemplate is?If the Gospels are repetitive useless you are in trouble my freind.If someone goes to confession Saturday and intends to do it again Monday then the confession is not valid.You think you see what is wrong in the Catholic Church Dave if you really knew anything besides your own learned predjudices,like I have said before you would be talking to a priest asking where to sign.God Bless

 

[Xavier]

sfp:

You are clearly ignoring Jesus’s audience. He was speaking to a world of people immersed in fighting paganism. He is condemning worshipping pagan gods in the common way it was done at the time.

Open your minds for a second…

Matthew’s gospel is very clear on condemning repetitious prayer “AS THE HEATHENS” do. This is condemning the practice of the pagans which were very common at the time…

They would pray repetitious prayers hoping that the gods would hear them, then they would go on living however immoral they wanted (since the repetition was thought to “appease” the gods"). There was no connection between their prayers and actually living morally.

Jesus was not condemning ANY repetitious prayer. how do we know this…because read what he tells us to do TWO VERSES LATER…

Listen to yourself

He gives us the most perfect prayer…the Our Father, and tells us to “PRAY THIS WAY…” So, if repetitious liturgical prayer is being condemned, then why does Jesus then tell us to go praying using THAT prayer?

The our Father shows a pattern or a type of a prayer we are to say.

I will also say, that if any Catholics out there are praying Hail Mary’s and Our Fathers, and then thinking that this somehow “appeases” God, and you then have the right to go live however immorally you want, then you are doing exactly what Dave is accusing…but the CHURCH DOESN’T TEACH THAT, Dave.

Dave, how many times do you think is too much to tell God you love Him? Do you think that He will be ticked off if you repetitiously tell Jesus…

I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…I love you, Jesus…

Is that condemned by Jesus? Do you REALLY think it is? If not, and I trust you agree it’s not, then how is this any different than good liturgical prayers with a good message and meaning? You see, we agree that private prayer is ALSO very important, however we can often be very selfish when we pray…it can turn into just constant “requests” from God without giving proper praise and thanks.

This is why we feel that the liturgical prayers, handed down for centuries, is so important, to. You can’t improve the words of great liturgical prayer.

Ther is nothing wrong with saying the Jesus prayer over and over again as long as you think on what you are saying.

A fervent prayer from your heart in your own words is pleasing to God.

 

[Xavier]

Back on subject.
I have never ever not once heard anyCatholic explain Matthew 1:25.
I have heard many try. Please use the same "logic’ you have to explain Luke 1 to explain Matthew 1.

24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. F5 And he called His name Jesus.

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

Listen to yourself

The our Father shows a pattern or a type of a prayer we are to say.

Ther is nothing wrong with saying the Jesus prayer over and over again as long as you think on what you are saying.

A fervent prayer from your heart in your own words is pleasing to God.

There is an inconsistency in this statement. The Jesus prayer is: Jesus I love you. Please note the selfish inclusion here. The Rosary not only takes us through Scripture, it praises God:

“blessed is the fruit of your womb”

Which is the repetitious babble?

You see the fruit of Mary’s womb, the only fruit of her womb is Jesus. He is blessed because he is the Son of God and the Son of Man at one and the same time.
Maggie

 

[Benadam]

Church Militant:

Benadam said:

Beautifully expressed Benadam! Thank you.
Pax vobiscum,

You’re very welcome

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

Back on subject.
I have never ever not once heard anyCatholic explain Matthew 1:25.
I have heard many try. Please use the same "logic’ you have to explain Luke 1 to explain Matthew 1.

24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. F5 And he called His name Jesus.

You are wrong when you say that it has not been explained. We have explained it all too many times in this thread.

The meaning of “until” in this context does not denote that anything happened afterwards. To say so is nothing more than a modern neo-Helvidius heresy.

It is like someone who takes a secret to the grave. That person did not tell anyone about the secret “until the day he died”. That does not mean that on the day the person died the secret was divulged.

This is precisely what the Gospel writer is stating so that we understand that Joseph could not possibly be the father of Jesus. It is written there for no other reason, and it is not written there to satisfy the gutter-filled minds of the twentieth century.

Maggie

 

[Xavier]

MaggieOH:

There is an inconsistency in this statement. The Jesus prayer is: Jesus I love you. Please note the selfish inclusion here. The Rosary not only takes us through Scripture, it praises God:

“blessed is the fruit of your womb”

Which is the repetitious babble?

You see the fruit of Mary’s womb, the only fruit of her womb is Jesus. He is blessed because he is the Son of God and the Son of Man at one and the same time.
Maggie

Jesus I love You is selfish?

 

[Xavier]

MaggieOH:

You are wrong when you say that it has not been explained. We have explained it all too many times in this thread.

The meaning of “until” in this context does not denote that anything happened afterwards. To say so is nothing more than a modern neo-Helvidius heresy.

It is like someone who takes a secret to the grave. That person did not tell anyone about the secret “until the day he died”. That does not mean that on the day the person died the secret was divulged.

This is precisely what the Gospel writer is stating so that we understand that Joseph could not possibly be the father of Jesus. It is written there for no other reason, and it is not written there to satisfy the gutter-filled minds of the twentieth century.

Maggie

Until was not needed if Mary remained a virgin.
One would say Maggie never devulged the secret or She never told the secret when she was alive.

 

[dcdurel]

Xavier:

Until was not needed if Mary remained a virgin.
One would say Maggie never devulged the secret or She never told the secret when she was alive.

But that is not biblical language.

For example, the bible says

Ge 8:5 And the waters continued to
abate**until **the tenth month; in
the tenth month, on the first day
of the month, the tops of the
mountains were seen.

But, of course, we know the waters continued to abate AFTER the tenth month.
Thus, we cannot force our understanding on God’s word. We must try to understand God’s word and force it on our understanding.

 

[Redbandito]

oudave:

Hi
This is an interesting responce, I would guess that when Maggie posted her responce that it was in tongue and cheek. Do you think that she was taking it too lightly?. I don’t think that prayers in the scriptures are meaningless. I have seen catholics pray the rosery and most acted like they couldnt wait to get done. This is why scripture warns against such things-

Mat 6:7 And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Heart broken repentance is what Jesus is looking for, we need to be angry at sin and hate it as much as Satin himself. If we are sorry on Sunday for something we did on Saturday but fully intend to do again on Monday then I don’t care how many written prayers wheather from scripture or the CCC we offer up to God, it will not matter to Him. He will not honor that. If a persom goes to confession every week for twenty years and says the same prayers, does that not constitute as being repetitive?

I did not say this to offend anyone but rather to point something out that I see wrong in the Catholic church.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Dave, you make a common exegetical mistake here. You cite a verse, and then misrepresent it. It does not say repetition of prayers is wrong, it says “vain repetition of prayers” is wrong. There is a difference. In fact, the Angels in Heaven REPEAT over and over again in a hymn of praise, “Holy, Holy, Holy”. Jesus gave us the “Lord’s Prayer” to pray. Was Jesus contradicting himself? OF COURSE NOT! It is not the repetition that is bad, it is the doing it in vain. You are right that God wants prayers to be from the heart. That does not exclude prayers of repetition. In fact, these can help us say exactly what we mean in a way that we may not be able to express ourselves. The point is Dave, you misinterpreted Scripture “to your own destruction” as St. Peter tells us in his epistle.