Mary- other children

[Xavier]

Mickey:

The reformation divided Christ’s Church into 30,000 + fragments. And every time it divides the truth becomes more diluted. What’s truly sad, is that many protestants don’t see this!

:crying:

In Christ we are undivided.
It is when we employ extra biblical doctrine that we become divided.

 

[Xavier]

Benadam:

I agree with your statements about God’s will. The division that became termed the reformation was not caused by authorities disobedience to God. There are too many other times in history that authority has been corrected. The term reformation implies a unity that was lost because the dissenters were disobedient to authority. What I’m not understanding is what you are saying Catholics don’t see. I also don’t understand how this has anything to do with the concept of obedient dissent providing a fail safe method of working out differences.

We will disagree on this point however I cnnot be clearer on it.
The Church lost its authority when it became abusive and clung to false doctrines and beliefs even when confronted and it did not change defended error.
Specifically the doctrines on indulgences and salvation.
God could not allow these heresies to continue in His church unabated.

 

[mtr01]

Xavier:

In Christ we are undivided.
It is when we employ extra biblical doctrine that we become divided.

What a perfect way to describe the fruits of the extra-biblical doctrine of *sola scriptura *

 

[Mickey]

Xavier:

In Christ we are undivided.
It is when we employ extra biblical doctrine that we become divided.

So then you admit that your bizarre interpretation of scripture is a cause for division. It’s good to see that you are coming around Xavier!

 

[Benadam]

Xavier:

We will disagree on this point however I cnnot be clearer on it.
The Church lost its authority when it became abusive and clung to false doctrines and beliefs even when confronted and it did not change defended error.
Specifically the doctrines on indulgences and salvation.
God could not allow these heresies to continue in His church unabated.

head me off at the pass will ya!..you’re right we will disagree that the Church lost it’s authority. Now forgive me for this, but do you have any authoritive evidence to back that claim up with? I’m swure you would agree that an admitted authority would require another authority to releive it of it’s power.

 

[hlgomez]

Actually the logic is correct! My point is that when you call Mary the mother of God, which she is not, you ignore Christ’s humanity. This is an attempt to elevate Mary to a position that she does not deserve!

John 1717,

Your attempt to discredit Mama Mary as Mother of God is futile, indeed. For your view is nothing new with the views of the heretic Nestorius, a Catholic bishop who was preaching that Mary was not the Mother of God. He was condemend at the Council of Ephesus in A.D. 431 by the Catholic Church for his erroneous doctrine. Read it and see for yourself how these early Christians view Mary and called her THEOTOKOS-God Bearer-Mother of God.

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

Oudave,

On the Rosary:

You’re adding up insults to what is basically written in Scriptures and used by Catholics as universal prayers. You are insulting the words of the Archangel Gabriel when he declared to Mary; “Hail, full of grace” and Elizabeth who was filled with the Holy Spirit when she said the words; “The Lord is with you” and calling them “CHEAP” prayers? I thought you are a Bible-loving and Bible-believing Christian?

And worst of all, you are saying that the prayers such as the Apostle’s Creed, Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory be, and the different Mysteries of the Rosary taken from the Bible are all “CHEAP” according to you?

Pio

 

[hlgomez]

A man marry a woman who made a vow virginity why?

Xavier,

Because God sent His angel to tell Joseph this: "
Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord 9 appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. 21 She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, 10 because he will save his people from their sins.”

Now, are you going to disobey?

I understand your point Xavier, and in fact Joseph was even willing to divorce Mary in secret. But thank God Joseph obeyed and took Mary as his wife even if she should remain a virgin all her life. He was not a selfish man.

Pio

 

[Xavier]

hlgomez:

Xavier,

Because God sent His angel to tell Joseph this: "
Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord 9 appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. 21 She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, 10 because he will save his people from their sins.”

Now, are you going to disobey?

I understand your point Xavier, and in fact Joseph was even willing to divorce Mary in secret. But thank God Joseph obeyed and took Mary as his wife even if she should remain a virgin all her life. He was not a selfish man.

Pio

Mary was bethrothed to Joseph. Mary was pregnant. Joseph was concerned. The Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream to let him know what was happening.

 

[Xavier]

Benadam:

head me off at the pass will ya!..you’re right we will disagree that the Church lost it’s authority. Now forgive me for this, but do you have any authoritive evidence to back that claim up with? I’m swure you would agree that an admitted authority would require another authority to releive it of it’s power.

The Old Testament is shows a constant pattern of Isreal following God falling into apostacy, repenting to follow God then falling into apostacy.
God sent prophets to Isreal to turn them back to Him.
Sometimes they did and sometimes they didnt. When they didnt god would chastise them. He did this in different ways.
God has sent his prophets to warn the church in this age. At times His people listen repent and follow Him. At times His people dont listen and god chastises them in like kind as He did Isreal.

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

Mary was bethrothed to Joseph. Mary was pregnant. Joseph was concerned. The Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream to let him know what was happening.

You have recognized that Joseph was concerned because Mary was pregnant. The real question is why? Does Scripture tell us enough about what went through Joseph’s mind and what he had to wrestle with when he discovered that Mary was pregnant and he was not the father ? No it does not tell us.

That means that there are other possibilities behind Joseph’s concern. One of them is probably that Mary had informed Joseph of her vow and he had made a similar vow with her. This is not in Scripture, and it is conjecture. Yet, it is as equally feasible, if not more so, than someone claiming that Scripture verifies Mary had other children when the men named belong to Alphaeus and the other Mary.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

Mary was bethrothed to Joseph. Mary was pregnant. Joseph was concerned. The Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream to let him know what was happening.

You have recognized that Joseph was concerned because Mary was pregnant. The real question is why? Does Scripture tell us enough about what went through Joseph’s mind and what he had to wrestle with when he discovered that Mary was pregnant and he was not the father ? No it does not tell us.

That means that there are other possibilities behind Joseph’s concern. One of them is probably that Mary had informed Joseph of her vow and he had made a similar vow with her. This is not in Scripture, and it is conjecture. Yet, it is as equally feasible, if not more so, than someone claiming that Scripture verifies Mary had other children when the men named belong to Alphaeus and the other Mary.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

john doran:

Luke 1:43 :

43] And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord [he meter tou kuriou mou] should come to me?

1 Cor 8:4-6 :

4]Hence, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
5] For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth – as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” –
6] yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, *and one *Lord [kai heis kurios]

, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

how is the context different?

also, could you explain why your interpretation of these alleged contextual differences is any better than mine. or anyone else’s on the board? i mean, since it doesn’t actually say anything explicitly in the text itself differentiating between divine and non-divine contextual uses of the word “kurious” …

thanks.
John,

this is excellent work :bowdown2::bowdown:

 

[MaggieOH]

mommy:

I have to disagree, that “Catholics have made Mary a point of contention.” From my understanding, even at the time of the ‘reformation’ Luther and others believed the same as Catholics did about Mary.

Frankly the only time I’ve ever seen anyone even get close to ‘in your face’ with Mary (and I see it as more defending our faith, than getting in your face), is when non-Catholics try to tell us we worship her, or something along that line.

You are correct. Both Luther and Calvin agreed in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. Martin Luther preached on the Assumption of Mary even though it was not declared doctrine. Both believed that Mary is Mother of God. Calvin had a few outspoken things to say about Helvidius and his followers. If he heard the Neo-Helvidian-Nestorian-Arian of today, he would be flaring and wanting to burn the lot of them

 

[Mickey]

Xavier:

The Old Testament is shows a constant pattern of Isreal following God falling into apostacy, repenting to follow God then falling into apostacy.
God sent prophets to Isreal to turn them back to Him.
Sometimes they did and sometimes they didnt. When they didnt god would chastise them. He did this in different ways.
God has sent his prophets to warn the church in this age. At times His people listen repent and follow Him. At times His people dont listen and god chastises them in like kind as He did Isreal.

Wow! I’m impressed Xavier. You’re right on again. The reformation caused multitudes of Christians to fall into apostasy (Gr.aphistanai, to revolt). They fell away from the true Church and became protestants. I’m enjoying your posts now. God Bless!

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_3_16.gif

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

The only thing I disagree with you is highlighted

Then you are repeating the heresy of Nestorius and you do not understand the meaning of Theotokos.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Mickey:

So unbelievably wrong, John. You are truly denying the hypostatic union. Perhaps you should hook up with Xavier and start the “church of nestorius”.

 

[MaggieOH]

ALL of the person of Jesus is God, since He is fully God and fully man.

Trying to divide Jesus into two persons has been a major error and heresy since the 1st century.

The hypostatic union is a complete and eternal union of Jesus’s two natures, divine and human, into one person, one personality. The natures lose nothing of their uniqueness but they are permanently joined.

So trying to say that Mary was only mother of His human half (in order to try to belittle Mary) is an attempt to divide Jesus into two beings, and effectively denies the fullness of His incarnation. This is where that argument drifts into Gnosticism and Nestorian heresy.

Jesus is one person, God the Son, Mary is mother of every part of God the Son. hence she is rightly termed Mother of God.

This comment could not be more perfectly stated. :clapping::dancing::tiphat:
Xavier and John1717 please read these words carefully, because they are the best explanation of why we have the dogma of Theotokos

 

[reggie]

Simple grade school logic:
A = B
B = C
Therefore,
A = C

Mary is the mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of God.

God, the Holy Spirit and the Word are the alpha and the omega. They were, are and will always be. God was not a man. When the Word became Man, He was called Jesus, God made Man. Until that time, God had not had a mother, Mary became His mother when she bore Him and cared for Him in the same way any mother bears and cares for a child. She was not His mother before the Incarnation but she remains His mother from that time forward and forever. After Jesus died in the earthly flesh, His human body was glorified and He arose into heaven to take His seat at the right hand of God. It was not just Jesus, the human, who was loved and tended to by Mary. It was the Divine Being as well. For though He emptied Himself, He remained the Eternal Word. Do not be jealous and withhold honor from Mary. God made her for Himself. She gave Him the one thing He could not have had without her, the love of a human mother. Because of her, He experienced that most human and unbreakable of bonds, that of a woman and child, a bond forged through the pregnancy that cannot be replicated in any way. We as Christians should rejoice that Jesus loved us so much that He gave her to all of us upon His death. She must have been a wonderful mother. Love of her does not diminish in any way love for Jesus. We know from Whom grace and forgiveness comes, we also know that Mary, the Mother of God, is now and forever His mother and ours and that we can bring to her all of our cares and she will care for us as she cared for Him. She is not our Salvation, she is the hope of things to come for all of us. Where she is, we strive to be.

 

[MaggieOH]

Xavier:

In Christ we are undivided.
It is when we employ extra biblical doctrine that we become divided.

and who is employing extra-Biblical doctrine? Here is a list that is not verified by Scripture:

1. Sola Scriptura
2. Sola Fide
3. Sola Gratia
4. Once Saved Always Saved
5. the Rapture

All of these doctrines have a few things in common:

1. they were not taught by Jesus and the Apostles;
2. they lead to misinterpretation of the Scripture;
3. they seek to deny the Truth of Scripture;
4. they are not Christ oriented;
   5 they are selfish because the centrepiece of these doctrines is “me” alone.

As I have said repeatedly the Marian doctrines are Christ centred, not Mary-centred. Every declaration of the Church on these matters has involved some aspect of Jesus that is being denied at the time the doctrine was declared. Yet the heresies continue and we go full circle: Helvidius and his claim that Mary had other children.

Maggie